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Naval Combat - 9/10/2020 4:42:00 AM   
canuckgamer

 

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Playing around with the game solo before I get in to a PBEM with friends. Looks like for surface naval combat you move your fleet(s) adjacent to an enemy one and the program does a search to see if find the enemy fleet? Is that correct?

Since carriers have a range of 5, at least the Glorius does, I can move it to within 5 hexes and it will search. Does the probability of finding the enemy fleet increase the closer I am to the enemy?

Thanks in advance for any replies and comments.
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RE: Naval Combat - 9/10/2020 3:14:12 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

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The ships have two operational points. You need one point to make an attack attempt. So unless you start adjacent, for surface and five hexes for CV's, (in which case you can make two attack attempts) you can move, I believe, 24 hexes and then make an attack attempt.

Fleets with CV's in them always attack by air with a range of 5 hexes. I don't believe there is any effect for being adjacent or at max range on this but I haven't verified that.

Surface Fleets in Fleet mode attack only adjacent.

A search is done first to see if you spot the enemy. If they are in "Fleet" mode you usually do. If they are in "Raider" mode, all your pilots and radar operators are apparently blind because I don't seem to ever find anything.

If found then there is combat. If only spotted, it may improve other units attempts but I haven't been able to verify that. Usually once a combat occurs those units that attempt attacks afterword seem to be more successful.

Be aware though when moving adjacent to enemy units in fleet mode that they may "Ambush" your group and attack it. Usually with better odds of success. This is triggered by "interdiction" which only occurs when an enemy fleet that is not in "Raider" mode moves within five hexes of any type fleet that is not a Raider. It only occurs if they stop in that range. They can pass right through you and wave at you otherwise.

Hope this give some clarification.

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RE: Naval Combat - 9/10/2020 6:10:29 PM   
canuckgamer

 

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Sounds like a catch 22 if you want to engage enemy surface fleets. If you move adjacent to search and contact is made then the enemy fleet may ambush you.

With the location of every enemy fleet visible you would never have a transport carrying a land unit sunk as you would never move the transport adjacent to an enemy fleet. This is probably more realistic anyway because in SC WIE I have lost an entire tank corps and infantry corps when my transport bumped in to a hidden sub. I don't think this ever happened historically.

I hope the naval system is tweaked before the Pacific theatre is added because I still think there should be an element of FOW where the location of naval units is not visible.

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RE: Naval Combat - 9/10/2020 6:31:18 PM   
ago1000


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I have found that recon level of the hex is the most helpful factor in determining whether your fleet will find and engage an enemy fleet. There are many modifiers, weather, distance from controlled hexes, raider mode, fleet ID, night move, and more ... that determine the recon level of a fleet. Furthermore searches can also be effected by techs on your units. So many factors to consider. If for example, you click on coastal hexes from the UK, you get high recon. I believe the third to about 8 hex out of the UK you get medium recon, and the further you go out, the worse your recon level.

With that said, the bottom left hand of your screen will show the recon level of a hex, which I believe is the best indicator of your chances of spotting and engaging an enemy fleet. You have to find them first before you can engage the enemy.
For Naval Combat I'm assuming if recon is:
very low - really rare chance of finding and then engaging the enemy fleet.
low - rare chance of finding and engagement
medium - good chance of finding and engagement
high - very good chance of finding and engagement
very high - excellent chance of finding and engagement

I'm presently trying to figure out what the percentages of each are.

Fleet Interception is any fleet on patrol in fleet mode:
Totally different beast.
-they intercept fleets who finish their movement withing a 5 hex radius. Subs are an exception to this rule in that they cannot be intercepted but they can intercept other fleets if they are in fleet mode.
I concur with Kennonlightfoot, their odds are extremely successful because they are designed with the consideration of being near a coast and protecting a select set of objectives in a linear line supported by aircraft. Hence by design, they can intercept easily. However, this still holds true if you are in the middle of the Atlantic, so be aware.
Furthermore, the closer you stop your fleet near an enemy fleet on patrol, the greater the chances of that interception occuring.


Great movie, Catch 22.

Food for thought in WP, any recon at very low should only show a fleet counter and not a sub counter.

< Message edited by ago1000 -- 9/10/2020 7:10:31 PM >


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RE: Naval Combat - 9/10/2020 7:03:53 PM   
ago1000


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Correcting a portion of my previous post, I also want to add that a units recon level does change when you get the +1. When you click on the unit, in the top left you will be given more information of the unit. Hence another indication of the recon level of the fleet is how much info is displayed about it in the top left portion of your screen.






Another food for thought, I'm wondering if it's possible to show the present recon level of the unit on that screen?

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< Message edited by ago1000 -- 9/10/2020 7:17:39 PM >


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RE: Naval Combat - 9/10/2020 7:55:50 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: canuckgamer
Sounds like a catch 22 if you want to engage enemy surface fleets. If you move adjacent to search and contact is made then the enemy fleet may ambush you.

With the location of every enemy fleet visible you would never have a transport carrying a land unit sunk as you would never move the transport adjacent to an enemy fleet. This is probably more realistic anyway because in SC WIE I have lost an entire tank corps and infantry corps when my transport bumped in to a hidden sub. I don't think this ever happened historically.

I hope the naval system is tweaked before the Pacific theatre is added because I still think there should be an element of FOW where the location of naval units is not visible.

What is possible depends on how much control of the seas you have. If the rather small German surface fleet goes out into the Atlantic in any other mode than Raider it will never return. They will probably get a kill on the first UK group that moves next to them. But that is their purpose, to find the enemy. The follow up ships the UK will send will destroy them whether they intercept or not.

That is also why the transports for Canada and later the US don't often get intercepted. To do so means the German must go into Fleet mode which means the Allied navies finally have a target that it easy to find and kill. To attempt to sink a transport in open sea means losing the ships/subs you use to do it with.

Transports being used for invasions are a different problem since they must move adjacent to land. They will be intercepted by defenders ships and air rather than attacked on the open sea. So they rarely spend any time at sea. Usually an invasion is attempted directly from friendly ports to invasion beaches. Only the UK/USA have enough sea power to move an invasion force by multiple turns. Italy may have occasion to do this.

All this means that usually German surface and subs will always be in Raider mode and the UK surface ships will be moving adjacent and trying to find a target and usually failing.

In the Mediteraain things can get rather heated in the war for naval dominance. There the Italian fleet is rather large and they may have considerable air power in range to counter the slight advantage the UK has in ships.

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RE: Naval Combat - 9/10/2020 8:43:18 PM   
ago1000


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@Kennonlightfoot
+1 so true
Quick question: As the Allies, what % of your UK fleet do you have chasing Axis raiders? How often in a turn do you attack a single fleet?

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RE: Naval Combat - 9/10/2020 9:55:40 PM   
battlevonwar


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I ran a few tests of interceptions of the German Navy on Raider mode in the current patch and I caught it when I hit enough times. I think that people overrate Raider Mode and go at a fleet 1 or 2 times like that a turn and expect great results. (also in raider mode the convoy lanes on map are rather small in most places and with some guessing you can anticipate where an enemy raider is likely to be) giving you ample time to assemble 4-5 groups to do it in. It may take awhile or it make take 1 turn.



< Message edited by battlevonwar -- 9/10/2020 9:57:08 PM >

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RE: Naval Combat - 9/10/2020 10:13:49 PM   
ago1000


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I've been running some tests too.

Surface Fleet attacking a raider seems to have a better chance of increasing the recon level by 1. Can anyone confirm for me, is this a medium recon level indication????

Naval units seem to have 4 recon levels, very low, low, medium, high. Just wondering if this pic is high or medium?




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RE: Naval Combat - 9/10/2020 10:50:11 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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You need to run samples for at east 1,000 instances to get an accurate model.

2-3 tests won't give you the correct averages. As we have seen from posts some complain their fleet gets sunk too fast others complain they can find them at all.

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RE: Naval Combat - 9/10/2020 11:22:20 PM   
ago1000


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

You need to run samples for at east 1,000 instances to get an accurate model.

2-3 tests won't give you the correct averages. As we have seen from posts some complain their fleet gets sunk too fast others complain they can find them at all.

Thanks Alvaro.
I'm more looking for generalities, like
Very low Recon : Fleet search and attack about 1 in 8
low Recon 1 in 4
medium 1 in 2,
High Almost 1 for 1.
Surface Fleet vs Surface Raider seems to increase recon level better than CV attack. Stuff like that. No precise numbers.
Still wondering though, is the image above a medium level reconnaissance report? If yes, would high be total knowledge of the fleet like I'd see if it were my turn?


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RE: Naval Combat - 9/11/2020 2:10:51 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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Look at page 82 and 83 of the new manual.

Moving on your turn toward an enemy is based on your recon value
Intercepting an enemy on their turn is based on how far they are away from the patrolling unit.

There are a lot of modifiers and at low values those modifiers make a large difference by ratio.

So if you have a 5% chance to find but have 2 CV groups in the mix thats +6% or more than doubles the chance to find.
While if you have a 90% chance to find having 2 CV groups only adds ~+7% to the overall amount.

So you can see how there are different results when testing.

I taught myself game theory and I play poker. A lot of mathematics and deep thought went into these systems from hand and board analysis from poker.


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RE: Naval Combat - 9/11/2020 4:55:34 PM   
ago1000


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Thanks Alvaro
Your explanations help a great deal. Thanks for taking the time. I appreciate you sharing your strategies, like the Axis send out their fleets and I bomb their oil. The game mechanics work well, I have been experimenting with the 1941 scenario and trying to sink the Tirpitz and much of what you have said is working like you have said based on your readings of the Pacific war. It's like sinking the Bismark. Thanks.

I especially like it when you explain why the game mechanics are the way they are. Playing different types of games than WP, I tend to over simplify the game mechanics and not look at the real life application of why they were created the way they were. I guess I am use to playing different types of games like Warcraft, Starcraft, League of Legends . Totally different strategies at play, more of a rock, paper, scissors type game.







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RE: Naval Combat - 9/11/2020 5:38:47 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

@Kennonlightfoot
+1 so true
Quick question: As the Allies, what % of your UK fleet do you have chasing Axis raiders? How often in a turn do you attack a single fleet?

So far, if the enemy fleet is in Raider mode I think my ships switch to throwing rocks at them. Apparently they can't throw them far enough to hit them. I haven't found an "upgrade to catapult" option yet.

Right now I am still in the early part of my first game under 8 and the Germans haven't used there surface ships yet as raiders. I think I have some strategies to try but they are untested.

Against subs only CV's can attempt to attack and they are pretty sorry at it, at least for me.

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RE: Naval Combat - 9/11/2020 5:45:47 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

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quote:

Look at page 82 and 83 of the new manual.

It appears from the description that his section only applies to the defending unit spotting you moving adjacent.
Does it use the same table and values to determine if you spot and attack the defender during your attack attempts?

Also, some of the values don't seem to correspond to what happens. In particular the "Raider mode" which the Recon Table lists as -1.
If this is something that affect interdiction it may be right since I rarely use Raider mode where they could come under interdiction. But my experience in open sea is there is a much larger difference in the odds of finding a ship in raider mode versus in Fleet. I have never seen a failure to engage a group in Fleet mode while those in Raider mode are rarely engaged.

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RE: Naval Combat - 9/11/2020 6:42:49 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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I believe a healthy level of anxiety is required to make a good game. In WP it is feeling like you never have enough to do everything. It makes it especially exciting in Russia where the Germans need more everything and the Russians feel they don't have enough.

I play DOTA. So I understand where you are coming from and the differences are very different between those games and this one. I also played the "craft" games long ago.


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RE: Naval Combat - 9/12/2020 4:05:47 PM   
Nirosi

 

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quote:

I believe a healthy level of anxiety is required to make a good game.


Can't argue with that! We are more or less looking up for some kind of "anxiety", that why we play!

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RE: Naval Combat - 9/12/2020 4:12:04 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

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quote:

I believe a healthy level of anxiety is required to make a good game.


Does that mean we will play a lot better if we pop a few Relaxia before taking our turn?
Maybe "borrow" some of my dog's Trazodone.

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RE: Naval Combat - 9/12/2020 8:00:08 PM   
Nirosi

 

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We might play better with Relaxia, but then we might go get the full excitement!

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RE: Naval Combat - 9/12/2020 8:13:19 PM   
Omnius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nirosi

We might play better with Relaxia, but then we might go get the full excitement!


Relaxia is legal where I live!

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RE: Naval Combat - 9/12/2020 8:23:58 PM   
Omnius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

I believe a healthy level of anxiety is required to make a good game. In WP it is feeling like you never have enough to do everything. It makes it especially exciting in Russia where the Germans need more everything and the Russians feel they don't have enough.


I like a healthy level of anxiety in my games even if I play solo hotseat. I do feel the wish I had more production points to match the starting setups for countries from year to year.

I want to clarify this carrier business as I seem to be seeing conflicting data from you. In the chart on page it shows that for every 3 air strength factors you get the +1% spot matrix modifier. If I apply that to carrier air I'm thinking 3 carrier groups equals 3 air strength factors so think that for carriers operate 3 together but two separately. However above you talked about using two together to get a search bonus. Could you please explain how carrier combat works in more detail so we know the best way to use units. What's the base chance of hitting with one versus the base chance of hitting with two or three?

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RE: Naval Combat - 9/12/2020 9:26:13 PM   
ago1000


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Your assumption is incorrect Omnius with regard to the numbers. One CV grp at full strength has a strength of 5 and a naval air strength of 10.




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RE: Naval Combat - 9/13/2020 8:52:31 AM   
ncc1701e


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There are several things I would like to bring up:

1. I am wondering why troops transport ships can travel in Raider mode and not only in Fleet mode? Is this WAD? Does it help them not to be intercepted?

2. I know the CPU thing. But, a ship is intercepted in the hex at the end of its move. As such, putting plenty of subs on its path do not have any impact. I think a naval interception attempt must be done each time it is crossing an enemy unit at less than 5 hexes.

3. There is only one naval interception in the end move of a naval unit. So putting plenty of units near its end move is useless.

Edit: Perhaps this is not clear, I will try to do a video on the subject.




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< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 9/13/2020 8:53:18 AM >


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RE: Naval Combat - 9/13/2020 9:55:16 AM   
ncc1701e


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Here is the video of my poor attempt to destroy two unescorted transports troops going to Lisbon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Sqn4AHXBak

I think there is something called a radio. I understand the "Enemy fleet not found" message. But, when I see an "Enemy fleet spotted" message, I am surprised that another fleet trying to attack the same fleet, that hasn't moved in the same turn, can get some subsequent "Enemy fleet not found" messages. Are they not sharing radio message for localisation?


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RE: Naval Combat - 9/13/2020 1:22:33 PM   
ago1000


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1. Yes, a -1 modifier is applies in spotting so they would be harder to find. During combat they also have a low naval profile.

2. This is by design from the beginning of the game. It has been discussed in previous threads. Until otherwise, this is the mechanics of the game. Remembering too, that most of the naval engagements occurred near coasts, the FOG takes care of this.

3. Naval Units on patrol 5 hexes and Air units in support mode 10 hexes will intercept and they can both intercept twice in a turn.

There is a real life application for this also that Alvaro mentioned in a previous post. Because they are usually considered near a coast protecting a select set of objectives in a linear line supported by aircraft

I use coastal protection from invasion but there are other reasons you want to protect a coast: https://youtu.be/K96C1CPGti4

I also want to mention with regard to Naval Combat, I have began using UK single SS fleets as recon to increase the Naval ID of Axis Raiders and it works. Modelling some of the tactics used in the Pacific where subs would go ahead of the invasion force to scout out the area.

< Message edited by ago1000 -- 9/13/2020 1:25:42 PM >


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RE: Naval Combat - 9/13/2020 3:56:42 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

1. Yes, a -1 modifier is applies in spotting so they would be harder to find. During combat they also have a low naval profile.


Well a transport troop with low naval profile, yes why not. I just want to confirm if this is WAD.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

2. This is by design from the beginning of the game. It has been discussed in previous threads. Until otherwise, this is the mechanics of the game. Remembering too, that most of the naval engagements occurred near coasts, the FOG takes care of this.


This is by design due to a CPU issue if I remember well. Doing an interception even if failing normally increases the odds of spotting. So, it must count.

But, take the video at 7:32:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Sqn4AHXBak

The first sub group spots the fleet.
The second one does not.
The third sub group spots the fleet.
The first surface fleet group spots the fleet.
The four sub group spots the fleet.


Super, so what's next? A brainstorming to know if they must attack?

And the final touch:
The second surface group did not find the fleet.

And, about naval engagements occurring near coastlines, I can do the exact same video of this lonely transport troop near coastlines and with subs/surface fleets that are unable to spot it.

If a SURFACE fleet is spotted, it must increase chances to spot AND ATTACK it DURING the same turn by other fleets. Subs can dive so must be treated separately.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

3. Naval Units on patrol 5 hexes and Air units in support mode 10 hexes will intercept and they can both intercept twice in a turn.


Okay but if you have two naval units at 5 hexes, only one will do a naval intercept.

It is hopeless. And I can't even disband the fleets to make tanks.

< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 9/13/2020 4:13:49 PM >


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RE: Naval Combat - 9/13/2020 4:20:49 PM   
Omnius


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@ncc1701e - Just because the first group spots and the second doesn't doesn't mean you didn't get the +1 spotting bonus from the first on the second, the second was just a bad die roll thus the no spotting result. I had 2 British carriers on the 3rd turn of the game find a German 2 sub group fleet with 3 consecutive +1 spotting results which led to the 4th scoring 2 hits. However that 4th could have missed had it's die roll been bad.

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RE: Naval Combat - 9/13/2020 4:43:35 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Omnius

@ncc1701e - Just because the first group spots and the second doesn't doesn't mean you didn't get the +1 spotting bonus from the first on the second, the second was just a bad die roll thus the no spotting result. I had 2 British carriers on the 3rd turn of the game find a German 2 sub group fleet with 3 consecutive +1 spotting results which led to the 4th scoring 2 hits. However that 4th could have missed had it's die roll been bad.


As I said, subs can dive to escape.

Here we are talking of an unescorted surface transport fleet. A sub group is what in the game? Around 10-12 subs?
So, I have 30 subs that can spot a surface fleet and no one is able to make a single attack. Not a single attack...
This is incompetence.

And take the video at 7:00:
The Hipper group intercepts the unescorted transport fleet near coastlines.
The game says AMBUSH. AMBUSH? Perhaps I have a wrong definition of the word AMBUSH.
The Hipper against an unescorted transport troop so it has located the enemy fleet (I hope).
And it does not score any steps.

Sorry I don't buy it.

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RE: Naval Combat - 9/13/2020 5:13:58 PM   
ago1000


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

1. Yes, a -1 modifier is applies in spotting so they would be harder to find. During combat they also have a low naval profile.


Well a transport troop with low naval profile, yes why not. I just want to confirm if this is WAD.

Gonna take these one at a time. p. 79 Manual (.08). The targeting profile of a transport is small, it's 1. Looking over the table, you can see other ships, CV, have very large targeting profiles when attacked by air, but runs like all hell, profile of 1, when surface attack occurs. Makes sense. YOu can select Raider mode, so yes -1 modifier will be applied to the spotting table.

I'm sorry but what does WAD mean? Without A Doubt?

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RE: Naval Combat - 9/13/2020 5:29:57 PM   
ago1000


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This is by design due to a CPU issue if I remember well. Doing an interception even if failing normally increases the odds of spotting. So, it must count.

But, take the video at 7:32:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Sqn4AHXBak

The first sub group spots the fleet.
The second one does not.
The third sub group spots the fleet.
The first surface fleet group spots the fleet.
The four sub group spots the fleet.

Super, so what's next? A brainstorming to know if they must attack?

And the final touch:
The second surface group did not find the fleet.

Not sure what you mean by it's a CPU thing....I know interdiction were modified after complaints about Invasions being too easy. You are showing in your video, different type of Naval Combat. When the subs are surrounding the fleet and attacking each individually, the fleets you are attacking needs to be spotted and it's recon level (ie: Hex based) is very low (ie. 5% chance + modifiers...etc) before any combat occurs. However, when you move the US unit close to land, that is really an naval interdiction and the spotting is done based on a high recon level of the interdicting unit, hence why combat almost always occurs. I also forgot to mention, the Axis fleet interdicting will be able to interdict twice.

< Message edited by ago1000 -- 9/13/2020 5:31:11 PM >


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