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[WAD] AA-7 Apex Missile Goes Blind No Matter What

 
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[WAD] AA-7 Apex Missile Goes Blind No Matter What - 9/7/2020 3:49:16 AM   
MarechalJoffre


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Just like in the title, I can't get this missile to work. I've tried different scenarios, changed altitudes and speeds, made sure the target isn't notching - none of which worked. R-24 always goes blind a few seconds after launch.

I've created a test scenario here for anyone to try.

< Message edited by apache85 -- 9/7/2020 7:34:48 AM >
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RE: AA-7 Apex Missile Goes Blind No Matter What - 9/7/2020 7:31:27 AM   
Rory Noonan

 

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It appears this is occuring as the enemy aircraft dives to evade; the High Lark 2 [Sapfir-23MLA-2] radar only has partial LDSD capability so when there is a significant difference in altitude lock is lost.

You can see this by turning off automatic evasion for the enemy aircraft.

We'll look into it to see if there's something we can do on the AI side to make the engagement feel a bit more satisfying

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RE: AA-7 Apex Missile Goes Blind No Matter What - 9/7/2020 10:22:58 PM   
MarechalJoffre


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quote:

ORIGINAL: apache85

It appears this is occuring as the enemy aircraft dives to evade; the High Lark 2 [Sapfir-23MLA-2] radar only has partial LDSD capability so when there is a significant difference in altitude lock is lost.

You can see this by turning off automatic evasion for the enemy aircraft.

We'll look into it to see if there's something we can do on the AI side to make the engagement feel a bit more satisfying


I remember the missile working fine a few months ago, so I'm not sure what changed since then but the missile is now effectively useless. I tried engaging a target at 36k feet from below at 30k, so that LD/SD doesn't impair anything, and again I lose the lock in a matter of seconds.

(in reply to Rory Noonan)
Post #: 3
RE: AA-7 Apex Missile Goes Blind No Matter What - 9/7/2020 10:26:56 PM   
Rory Noonan

 

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Can you post a save file showing that?

With a simulation as complex as Command there are so many factors at play that we really do need save files showing issues, trying to replicate them independently is often fruitless and we have a finite amount of dev time to use.

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RE: AA-7 Apex Missile Goes Blind No Matter What - 9/8/2020 5:01:21 AM   
Dimitris

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarechalJoffre
I remember the missile working fine a few months ago, so I'm not sure what changed since then but the missile is now effectively useless. I tried engaging a target at 36k feet from below at 30k, so that LD/SD doesn't impair anything, and again I lose the lock in a matter of seconds.


...because the target is diving?

< Message edited by Dimitris -- 9/8/2020 5:02:04 AM >


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RE: AA-7 Apex Missile Goes Blind No Matter What - 9/8/2020 5:23:22 AM   
Dimitris

 

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I checked the save you provided. The Phantom is diving and beaming once it detects the missile launch. By diving, it forces your radar to use its doppler mode (the Saphir-23 actually is a pseudo-doppler hybrid, but let's leave that aside). By beaming, it is doppler-notching you and thus breaking your lock (we briefly described this in one of the pre-release articles: https://www.warfaresims.com/?p=4990 ).

In other words, this is a textbook SARH & doppler evasion. The AI is correctly reacting to your shot. The only counter to that is to dive faster than the other guy so that he remains above the horizon in relation to your illuminator (so that you can try pulse illumination instead of PD), but that's rarely a desired situation and it's not 100% reliable either.

And now you know why air forces worldwide can't swap their SARH weapons for AMRAAM-class missiles, and their mechanical PD radars for AESAs, fast enough.

< Message edited by Dimitris -- 9/8/2020 5:29:14 AM >


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RE: AA-7 Apex Missile Goes Blind No Matter What - 9/9/2020 11:42:50 AM   
MarechalJoffre


Posts: 73
Joined: 12/18/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dimitris

I checked the save you provided. The Phantom is diving and beaming once it detects the missile launch. By diving, it forces your radar to use its doppler mode (the Saphir-23 actually is a pseudo-doppler hybrid, but let's leave that aside). By beaming, it is doppler-notching you and thus breaking your lock (we briefly described this in one of the pre-release articles: https://www.warfaresims.com/?p=4990 ).

In other words, this is a textbook SARH & doppler evasion. The AI is correctly reacting to your shot. The only counter to that is to dive faster than the other guy so that he remains above the horizon in relation to your illuminator (so that you can try pulse illumination instead of PD), but that's rarely a desired situation and it's not 100% reliable either.

And now you know why air forces worldwide can't swap their SARH weapons for AMRAAM-class missiles, and their mechanical PD radars for AESAs, fast enough.


Oh wow, I knew something might have been causing it but I delved deep into database and couldn't figure out why. This explains a lot. I'll try diving with the target as well then! Thanks.

(in reply to Dimitris)
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RE: AA-7 Apex Missile Goes Blind No Matter What - 9/9/2020 12:38:46 PM   
Uzabit

 

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Well, I think this is partly one of the reasons the Mig-23 is ineffective against modern opponents.

(in reply to MarechalJoffre)
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