Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

"Static" units?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> The Operational Art of War IV >> "Static" units? Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
"Static" units? - 9/7/2020 1:09:49 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4160
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
Hi, I'm playing around with some scenarios and set some units to "static", ie, they shouldn't be able to move without transport.

And yet in a scenario with a 2.5 km hex scale, they can move, although not much--one hex. But for things like 122mm howitzers w/o transport, this isn't realistic--why are they moving if they are supposedly "static"?
Post #: 1
RE: "Static" units? - 9/7/2020 3:21:18 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 3949
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
Remove the static flag and make it fixed. Unless you want it to move at some point in time. I guess 'someone' thinks the crew can drag a heavy howitzer through the mud.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 9/7/2020 3:22:40 AM >


_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 2
RE: "Static" units? - 9/7/2020 5:04:34 AM   
jupiter999

 

Posts: 38
Joined: 8/13/2015
Status: offline
Drag for 2.5 km??

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 3
RE: "Static" units? - 9/7/2020 9:54:34 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4160
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
Remove the static flag and make it fixed. Unless you want it to move at some point in time. I guess 'someone' thinks the crew can drag a heavy howitzer through the mud.

Well, that's the problem, the howitzers need to be able to move--when they have transport.

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 4
RE: "Static" units? - 9/7/2020 2:45:50 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 3949
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
Remove the static flag and make it fixed. Unless you want it to move at some point in time. I guess 'someone' thinks the crew can drag a heavy howitzer through the mud.

Well, that's the problem, the howitzers need to be able to move--when they have transport.



Yes that's the whole problem. The way transport is modeled. It isn't. While it's possible to dismount infantry you lose your heavy weapons in the process so no artillery for the most part. When a unit dismounts the heavy stuff needs to be left on the map and the flag for that equipment needs to be changed to fixed. Then when it mounts again (limbered for artillery) the flag needs to be changed back to static. But I don't know if there's a way to do that while a game is in progress.

However, even the new dismounted feature is screwed up. I can dismount a German unit and if it has 150mm light guns they stay. But all the 75mm AT guns are gone. How can they drag a 150mm sIG33 howitzer and have it keep up with the infantry but not the much lighter 75mm PAK97 AT guns?

< Message edited by Lobster -- 9/7/2020 2:46:15 PM >


_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 5
RE: "Static" units? - 9/7/2020 3:06:03 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4160
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
What a mess...disappointing. I haven't even looked at the dismount feature yet, so I can see I've got more frustration ahead...


(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 6
RE: "Static" units? - 9/8/2020 7:33:13 AM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 724
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Well, that's the problem, the howitzers need to be able to move--when they have transport.


What about the equipment flags?

It sounds like FLAG1 includes 2 in its sum (can move slowly without transport).

FLAG0 should include 16 in its sum (must have transport to move).

Cheers

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 7
RE: "Static" units? - 9/8/2020 11:18:38 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4160
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244
It sounds like FLAG1 includes 2 in its sum (can move slowly without transport).

FLAG0 should include 16 in its sum (must have transport to move).

FLAG0 is already set to 16, and FLAG1 is 32 (Long Range), so according to the Flag descriptions, the howitzers should not be able to move without transport. And yet, they can move 2.5 km per turn.

(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 8
RE: "Static" units? - 9/9/2020 6:53:45 AM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 724
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244
It sounds like FLAG1 includes 2 in its sum (can move slowly without transport).

FLAG0 should include 16 in its sum (must have transport to move).

FLAG0 is already set to 16, and FLAG1 is 32 (Long Range), so according to the Flag descriptions, the howitzers should not be able to move without transport. And yet, they can move 2.5 km per turn.


And the unit in question has only the howitzers as its equipment?

Cheers

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 9
RE: "Static" units? - 9/15/2020 5:19:45 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 3949
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244
It sounds like FLAG1 includes 2 in its sum (can move slowly without transport).

FLAG0 should include 16 in its sum (must have transport to move).

FLAG0 is already set to 16, and FLAG1 is 32 (Long Range), so according to the Flag descriptions, the howitzers should not be able to move without transport. And yet, they can move 2.5 km per turn.


Uhm...brawny artillerymen?

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 10
RE: "Static" units? - 9/15/2020 6:48:45 PM   
Hellen_slith


Posts: 1683
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
even today





Attachment (1)

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 11
RE: "Static" units? - 9/16/2020 2:09:58 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 3949
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith

even today






Asphalt lot. Now let's see them drag it along a WW2 Soviet 'road'.

Dang, why didn't they put some decent wheels on that thing?

< Message edited by Lobster -- 9/16/2020 2:11:19 AM >


_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

(in reply to Hellen_slith)
Post #: 12
RE: "Static" units? - 9/16/2020 2:17:16 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 3949
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
Drag this.





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

(in reply to Hellen_slith)
Post #: 13
RE: "Static" units? - 9/16/2020 4:27:07 PM   
Hellen_slith


Posts: 1683
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
Sure. Give me a couple of Marines or a few dozen Army. Or a couple hundred Navy.

And a lever and a fulcrum.

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 14
RE: "Static" units? - 9/17/2020 2:23:50 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 3949
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith

Sure. Give me a couple of Marines or a few dozen Army. Or a couple hundred Navy.

And a lever and a fulcrum.


I assume the Air Force doesn't have enough personnel.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

(in reply to Hellen_slith)
Post #: 15
RE: "Static" units? - 9/20/2020 4:22:39 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4160
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244
And the unit in question has only the howitzers as its equipment?

Sorry for delay, I've been traveling.

Yes, the howitzers were the only equipment--actually, my mistake, they are not howitzers but the 122mm M31 guns--they weigh more than 7,000 kg and I don't find it realistic at all that they could be manhandled 2.5 km in the course of a 6 hour turn.

But moreover, if an attribute says "cannot move without transport", it sure seem that, um, it shouldn't be able to move without transport?

< Message edited by 76mm -- 9/20/2020 4:23:56 AM >

(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 16
RE: "Static" units? - 9/20/2020 5:34:16 AM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 724
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244
And the unit in question has only the howitzers as its equipment?

Sorry for delay, I've been traveling.

Yes, the howitzers were the only equipment--actually, my mistake, they are not howitzers but the 122mm M31 guns--they weigh more than 7,000 kg and I don't find it realistic at all that they could be manhandled 2.5 km in the course of a 6 hour turn.

But moreover, if an attribute says "cannot move without transport", it sure seem that, um, it shouldn't be able to move without transport?


Definitely a bug. My guess is that this slipped in when the additional hex scales were added.

Cheers

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 17
RE: "Static" units? - 9/20/2020 4:21:47 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4160
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
But IIRC the game has included 2.5 km hex scale for some time. And if you look at the 122mm guns in the editor, it shows that the "static" flag is checked, whereas if you look at the unit report in the game, it shows that the unit features "Very Slow Movement". So for some reason the static flag seems to have been repurposed to "Very Slow Movement" rather than what it says in the Manual (Section 8.4.1.1), which is "no movement without transport".

Seems like "someone" decided to change the static flag to mean "Very Slow Movement" for some reason, and then didn't bother to update the manual or the text in the editor, etc. And if I had to choose between real "Static" units and units with "Very Slow Movement", I would definitely choose the former.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 9/20/2020 4:24:10 PM >

(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 18
RE: "Static" units? - 9/20/2020 4:37:36 PM   
rhinobones

 

Posts: 1237
Joined: 2/17/2002
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm
Seems like "someone" decided to change the static flag to mean "Very Slow Movement"


Wonder if other undocumented flag changes have been made. Do you think it is possible that a different flag is now the “static” setting?

Regards


_____________________________

Colin Wright:
Comprehensive Wishlist Forum #467 . . . The Norm (blessed be His name, genuflect three times and accept all values in the program as revealed truth)

Pre Combat Air Strikes # 64 . . . I need have no concern about keeping it civil

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 19
RE: "Static" units? - 9/20/2020 6:36:26 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 3949
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
The ability for artillery to move without transport has been present forever. It's the minimum one hex per turn thing. Remove that ability from static equipment unless it has transport.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

(in reply to rhinobones)
Post #: 20
RE: "Static" units? - 9/21/2020 12:01:15 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4160
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
Kind of bizarre that they even include the static flag if that's not how the game actually works...oh well.

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 21
RE: "Static" units? - 9/21/2020 2:31:32 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 3949
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Kind of bizarre that they even include the static flag if that's not how the game actually works...oh well.


It's as if Norm had something in mind but forgot about it.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 22
RE: "Static" units? - 9/21/2020 6:26:01 AM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 724
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Kind of bizarre that they even include the static flag if that's not how the game actually works...oh well.


It's as if Norm had something in mind but forgot about it.


Maybe it is leftover code from Age of Rifles

Cheers

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 23
RE: "Static" units? - 9/21/2020 6:28:00 AM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 724
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm
Seems like "someone" decided to change the static flag to mean "Very Slow Movement"


Wonder if other undocumented flag changes have been made. Do you think it is possible that a different flag is now the “static” setting?

Regards



That is a good thought. A lab scenario featuring equipment with particular flags selected could be checked against the game report.

Underlying issue seems to be that updated documentation for the equipment file is called for.

Cheers

(in reply to rhinobones)
Post #: 24
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> The Operational Art of War IV >> "Static" units? Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.148