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RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up.

 
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RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up. - 9/9/2020 1:20:08 AM   
fcooke

 

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winners get to set the rules, sadly.

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RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up. - 9/9/2020 1:24:50 AM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

winners get to set the rules, sadly.


You would rather the Nazis have set the rules?

_____________________________

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“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
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RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up. - 9/9/2020 1:26:25 AM   
Platoonist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

winners get to set the rules, sadly.


True that. Lemay's quote is one smugly made by a man who knows he is well out of legal reach. For that time anyway.

Another relatively common form of Allied misconduct was the treatment of enemy dead. In a particularly notorious incident, Life magazine published a picture of a young woman whose Navy officer boyfriend had sent her the skull of a Japanese soldier. This provoked outrage in Japan and was exploited by the Japanese government for propaganda purposes. It also provoked outrage in the United States, and senior commanders, including Nimitz, demanded that local commanders enforce field regulations against mistreatment of enemy dead. However, enforcement remained spotty and penalties were rarely severe.

The Navy officer who sent the Japanese skull to his girlfriend received no more than a letter of reprimand.

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RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up. - 9/9/2020 1:27:48 AM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

And Tang is my favorite WW2 sub. She really kicked bottoms (sadly including her own). Good thing O'Kane got off Wahoo when he did.


A circular running torpedo sang the Tang which the US Navy had a device to fix that problem.

One reason why the Wahoo may have been lost was the junior officers who could restrain some of the more aggressive actions were transferred out.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up. - 9/9/2020 1:47:21 AM   
Ian R

 

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.

< Message edited by Ian R -- 9/9/2020 1:49:42 AM >


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Ian R

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RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up. - 9/9/2020 1:49:19 AM   
Ian R

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoonist


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

winners get to set the rules, sadly.


True that. Lemay's quote is one smugly made by a man who knows he is well out of legal reach. For that time anyway.

Another relatively common form of Allied misconduct was the treatment of enemy dead. In a particularly notorious incident, Life magazine published a picture of a young woman whose Navy officer boyfriend had sent her the skull of a Japanese soldier. This provoked outrage in Japan and was exploited by the Japanese government for propaganda purposes. It also provoked outrage in the United States, and senior commanders, including Nimitz, demanded that local commanders enforce field regulations against mistreatment of enemy dead. However, enforcement remained spotty and penalties were rarely severe.

The Navy officer who sent the Japanese skull to his girlfriend received no more than a letter of reprimand.



While, at the same time, the Japanese were executing captured allied airmen - and there is evidence that, in New Guinea, they actually ate some parts of the bodies such as the liver. The consumption of such human flesh was a festive ceremony in the officers' mess.

There is a good book on the bushido culture called "Warriors of the Rising Sun" by Robert Edgerton. The reference to the above is on page 16 of that book, with footnotes to EFL Russell, The Knights of Bushido:A short history of Japanese war crimes (published in 1958).

Also see: Professor Tanaka


< Message edited by Ian R -- 9/9/2020 2:14:21 AM >


_____________________________

"You may find that having is not so nearly pleasing a thing as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
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Ian R

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Post #: 66
RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up. - 9/9/2020 2:00:49 AM   
Platoonist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R


While, at the same time, the Japanese were executing captured allied airmen - and there is evidence that, in New Guinea, they actually ate some parts of the bodies such as the liver. The consumption of such human flesh was a festive ceremony in the officers' mess.





Yeah, that's straight out of the Colonel Masanobu Tsuji playbook. How that guy slipped past the Japanese war crime trials net, I'll never know.

Tsuji was associated with atrocities in Malaya (including the Alexandra Hospital massacre and the massacre of Chinese civilians in Singapore), the Philippines (including the Death March), and Burma (including the cannibalism of a downed American flier). He was intensely pan-Asian and contemptuous of all things Western.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masanobu_Tsuji

In a bizarre twist, recently declassified CIA files show that an attempt was made to recruit Tsuji as an intelligence agent after he came out of hiding. However, he proved useless, the CIA concluding that "In either politics or intelligence work, he is hopelessly lost both by reason of personality and lack of experience... Tsuji is the type of man who, given the chance, would start World War III without any misgivings".

Tsuji never returned from a trip to Laos in 1961, and it was rumored that he had made the trip to advise the Viet Cong.


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Post #: 67
RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up. - 9/9/2020 2:01:50 AM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoonist


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

winners get to set the rules, sadly.


True that. Lemay's quote is one smugly made by a man who knows he is well out of legal reach. For that time anyway.

Another relatively common form of Allied misconduct was the treatment of enemy dead. In a particularly notorious incident, Life magazine published a picture of a young woman whose Navy officer boyfriend had sent her the skull of a Japanese soldier. This provoked outrage in Japan and was exploited by the Japanese government for propaganda purposes. It also provoked outrage in the United States, and senior commanders, including Nimitz, demanded that local commanders enforce field regulations against mistreatment of enemy dead. However, enforcement remained spotty and penalties were rarely severe.

The Navy officer who sent the Japanese skull to his girlfriend received no more than a letter of reprimand.


I understand that the skulls made good ash trays and the long bones made nice letter openers.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Platoonist)
Post #: 68
RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up. - 9/9/2020 2:06:35 AM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R


quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoonist


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

winners get to set the rules, sadly.


True that. Lemay's quote is one smugly made by a man who knows he is well out of legal reach. For that time anyway.

Another relatively common form of Allied misconduct was the treatment of enemy dead. In a particularly notorious incident, Life magazine published a picture of a young woman whose Navy officer boyfriend had sent her the skull of a Japanese soldier. This provoked outrage in Japan and was exploited by the Japanese government for propaganda purposes. It also provoked outrage in the United States, and senior commanders, including Nimitz, demanded that local commanders enforce field regulations against mistreatment of enemy dead. However, enforcement remained spotty and penalties were rarely severe.

The Navy officer who sent the Japanese skull to his girlfriend received no more than a letter of reprimand.



While, at the same time, the Japanese were executing captured allied airmen - and there is evidence that, in New Guinea, they actually ate some parts of the bodies such as the liver. The consumption of such human flesh was a festive ceremony in the officers' mess.

There is a good book on the bushido culture called "Warriors of the Rising Sun" by Robert Edgerton. The reference to the above is on page 16 of that book, with footnotes to EFL Russell, The Knights of Bushido:A short history of Japanese war crimes (published in 1958).



In New Guinea, they cut the meaty parts of the dead Allied soldiers. In China, they also the Chinese. On Chichi Jima, they killed American Naval flyers and ate their livers. George Bush was lucky that he was rescued, he was the last one rescued there - the rest were murdered and parts eaten, even though the Japanese were not starving.

A cannibal: A man who loves his fellow man
.
.
.
with gravy.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Ian R)
Post #: 69
RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up. - 9/9/2020 2:29:31 AM   
fcooke

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

winners get to set the rules, sadly.


You would rather the Nazis have set the rules?


No RJ - that would not have been good. But when I was working I took responsibility for anything my team did. that mindset seems to have gone out of fashion. And the rules should be the rules, whoever 'wins', IMO

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 70
RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up. - 9/9/2020 2:39:16 AM   
fcooke

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

And Tang is my favorite WW2 sub. She really kicked bottoms (sadly including her own). Good thing O'Kane got off Wahoo when he did.


A circular running torpedo sang the Tang which the US Navy had a device to fix that problem.

One reason why the Wahoo may have been lost was the junior officers who could restrain some of the more aggressive actions were transferred out.



The sad thing about that circular run is that is was literally the last fish on the boat. I think only 6-8 men got off the boat, even though she went down in fairly shallow water. And the target was likely sinking anyway. But that was a heck of a patrol.

Was it Harder or Wahoo that is suspected to have been taken out by an old 4 piper captured in Java by the IJN and turned into a patrol boat?

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Post #: 71
RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up. - 9/9/2020 2:47:05 AM   
Platoonist


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From: Kila Hana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke



Was it Harder or Wahoo that is suspected to have been taken out by an old 4 piper captured in Java by the IJN and turned into a patrol boat?


Yes, It was Harder and Commander Sam Dealy apparently done by the ex-USS Stewart (DD-224). Ironic that it took a captured US destroyer to sink America's leading submarine ace.

According to some of his contemporaries, Dealy was becoming rather contemptuous of Japanese ASW methods. That, and fatigue may have contributed to the Harder's loss.

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RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up. - 9/9/2020 2:56:21 AM   
fcooke

 

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IIRC he was pretty worn out from his previous patrol but wanted to go right back out, and the Admiral (Lockwood?) let him.

Hit em again Harder

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Post #: 73
RE: OT: Something I've been meaning to bring up. - 9/9/2020 6:31:05 PM   
Macclan5


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There is much debate about the ABomb verses the Soviet Intervention verses the Potsdam Declaration.

One of the most complete balanced documentaries on the subject is an old PBS show (2005 - 60th Anniversary ) :

American Experience : Victory in the Pacific

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/pacific/

You can find versions on You Tube as well.

The documentary conducts extensive interviews with both American AND Japanese historians; additionally selected interviews with veterans both American AND Japanese. Noted experts such Richard Frank etc.

The answer is "all are very likely contributors however the exact primary motivator is unclear - and must include eventual social unrest and potential starvation as well".

The issue is equally clouded because the Emperor mentions the Bomb in his recorded speech to Japanese citizens; but mentions the Soviet intervention in recorded messages to the Imperial Japanese Military.

Equally it is now abundantly evident that a simple guarantee of the Emperors Position in the Potsdam declaration would NOT have elicited earlier compliance. "Magic" (Enigma) de-crypts clearly indicate that through the Japanese approach to the Soviets for war mediation - even moderates viewed the Potsdam declaration as a sign of weakness and failing American morale. They simply did not understand the cultural approach to such a declaration and the Allied resolve. Invasion was going to be a necessity with Millions of casualties both Military and Civilian - prior to the ABomb (s).

The only issue it does not address is the so called "engineered split theory". That is that at the very end of the war - the ProWar faction of the cabinet and the ProPeace faction were equally balanced. The votes were literally tied on the inner cabinet level and general government level. This may have actually been engineered by negotiation in the back rooms - "forcing Hirohito" to make clear his direction and casting the deciding vote.



< Message edited by Macclan5 -- 9/9/2020 6:35:06 PM >


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