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Question about updates - 8/28/2020 4:46:55 PM   
Hexagon


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Well, this is a key point for me... is going to continue the policy "pay for updates"?

This was one of the motives (apart horrible DRM system) to leave my contact with CM2 in Normandy base game, now with 50% of problems solved i want know if this is solved to.

Thanks.
Post #: 1
RE: Question about updates - 8/28/2020 5:54:22 PM   
wodin


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I can't understand why people have an issue for how they update the game. Patches are still free. But improved gameplay you pay for, I see nothing wrong in this.

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RE: Question about updates - 8/30/2020 7:34:43 PM   
Hexagon


Posts: 1132
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Well, the motive i dont continue with CM serie was 50% horrible DRM system, a problem solved in the moment we have Matrix involved and finally we can say bye bye Mr crap DRM BUT the other 50% motive is pay for patches model, i dont have problem in pay for CONTENT but not for improve the game features, i think this thing made a lot to crack community in the moment instead attract more players with new features in game made opposite dividing player base by what "engine" they are running... is not only have or not have a DLC that is a question of tastes... no, is made BASE GAME different to and increase chance to dont find players for a game.

Being clear, i invest a lot of money in games buying DLCs (i refer to the old expansion concept, not cosmetic DLCs, i pay for content not for cosmetic things) BUT i NEVER pay to keep a game updated, here, for example Tiller is the king of game support for players because you have a 1999 game updated to 2020... i dont say this is what i expect in all games BUT at least have base game updated without pay for it, if devs want my money they can release new content.

I want know whats going to be the future of CM series now on this point, Matrix model (are better games and worst games in the point of keep them updated) or Battlefront model (pay for it) because i dont like Battlefront model and i never i am going support it with my money.

< Message edited by Hexagon -- 8/30/2020 7:36:08 PM >

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 3
RE: Question about updates - 8/31/2020 12:45:18 AM   
thewood1

 

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You don't pay for patches in CM. If you want an upgrade, thats pay. Upgrades are new units, maps, functions, etc. Patches fix bugs and might add a few things here and there. They just released a patch a few weeks ago. Last upgrade was a couple years ago. Before getting wound up about something, might want to do a little research.

(in reply to Hexagon)
Post #: 4
RE: Question about updates - 8/31/2020 2:36:09 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4620
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From: Washington, DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1
You don't pay for patches in CM. If you want an upgrade, thats pay. Upgrades are new units, maps, functions, etc. Patches fix bugs and might add a few things here and there. They just released a patch a few weeks ago. Last upgrade was a couple years ago. Before getting wound up about something, might want to do a little research.

Wow, I guess I got ripped off then, because none of my CM upgrades have included new units or maps--actually that kind of content is in the modules. Maybe you should do a little research yourself?

The upgrades include limited upgrades to functionality and/or UI. For instance, the 4.0 upgrade included the following features, as per the CM website:
************
GAMEPLAY
Hulldown Command
 Vehicles have access to a new movement command called Hulldown. This command allows a vehicle to move forward until only the turret is exposed to a specified target, and then the vehicle stops moving.
Improved Infantry Spacing
 Infantry on the move will now respect each other's personal space! While moving, squad and team members will maintain a few meters of distance between each other. Soldiers will also spread out laterally on the move when possible (some terrain may necessitate column movement, such as paths through rough terrain).
Peeking Around Building Corners
 Infantry units positioned adjacent to building corners will now automatically post some soldiers at the corners to observe and fire around the obstacle
AI Proactively Avoids Artillery Fire
 The TacAI that runs soldiers and vehicles will more proactively, and reactively, attempt to avoid incoming HE fire. Two classic examples are that the AI will attempt to avoid being wiped out by incoming artillery barrages and direct tank fire.
Combine Squad Command
 Combine Squad is a new Admin Command for squads. This command is useful for squads that have suffered major losses and need to consolidate their remaining personnel into larger teams!

USER INTERFACE
Expanded Waypoint Description Text
 More special unit commands (such as Hide and Deploy Weapon) will now be marked with white floating text above the waypoint they are assigned to.
Campaign Briefing Anytime
 The overall campaign briefing is now viewable during any campaign mission by going to the Menu Options Panel and selecting "Campaign".
Forward Observer Kill Credits
 Finally, time to see how effective your artillery really is! Forward Observers now get credit on the AAR for any casualties caused by off-map fire missions called in by them.
Screen Edge Pan Toggle
 Tired of trying to fine tune a camera position and then messing it up by touching the edge of the screen with the cursor? Using the hotkey ALT-E you can disable camera panning by touching the screen edge with the mouse cursor.

EDITOR
AI Area Fire Orders
 The AI can now be scripted to use Area Fire! Each AI Order can have a target zone designated.
AI Facing Orders
 Each AI Order can be given a location for it to Face towards.
AI Withdraw Orders
 AI Groups can be ordered to Withdraw towards their movement destination. Vehicles will move in Reverse to the destination, while infantry will leapfrog back while turning around to face behind them.
Campaign Resupply
 Personnel replacements and ammunition levels are now more uniformly resupplied across all core units between campaign missions, as opposed to the all-or-nothing check on each unit done previously.
3D Flavor Object Clone Tool
 Flavor object can be cloned within the 3D view without having to go back to the 2D view.
32 Oorder AI Plans
 Each AI Group can now have up to 32 Orders, increased from 16.
Stream Terrain
 Small streams can now be placed on battle maps.

GRAPHICS
New Small Arms Effects
 Tracer and muzzle flash special effects received a visual boost.
**************
Personally I'm pretty much neutral on this issue, because frankly a lot of devs would include these kind of things in patches...but then again many devs would also never develop/release these kind of extra features at all, so generally I'd rather pay to get them than never get them at all.

But by now I've given up on the CM games because of their glacial release schedule. At this point looks like it will be 6-7 years between the release of CMRT and the first module for it--absolutely pathetic. A major patch to fix a game-breaking bug (infantry behavior under artillery attack, etc.) took what, a year, to release? They're a quality shop but seem to have a habit of biting off more than they can chew.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 8/31/2020 2:40:45 AM >

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 5
RE: Question about updates - 8/31/2020 10:33:28 AM   
Hexagon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

You don't pay for patches in CM. If you want an upgrade, thats pay. Upgrades are new units, maps, functions, etc. Patches fix bugs and might add a few things here and there. They just released a patch a few weeks ago. Last upgrade was a couple years ago. Before getting wound up about something, might want to do a little research.


Well, for me this is not true because an upgrade in CM is a normal PATCH, a free patch in other games and use a different name for me is not motive to pay for it, only other game i know doing this is "Steel Beast Pro" but i think here with every new engine they add new units because they dont use a expansion/DLC model.

As said 76mm i dont see new units in upgrades, i see corrections in OOBs and only "new things" are new features like orders... well, this is not true at all because with the first pay patch, the motive i leave CM new series + first time i try reinstall game, they add flammtowers, something that if was not added in base game i dont think is a motive to pay for it.

Upgrades are in reallity PATCHES and what you call patches are a mix of hotfixes when are small corrections or patches when are bigger corrections.

I am asking a simple question, we are going to need in future pay for "upgrades" or not? because if Battlefront model is going to be used here and not Matrix model i am not going move the series to the buy list.

PD: and is not a question of money, is a question about i dont support with my money who dont release content and want i pay to receive what is in 99% of other games a FREE PATCH, for example my last buy was around 215€ in Tiller special and i am 99% sure to buy his new PzC first day.

Other motive i dislike in new CM series is you need now 2 different titles to have the original CM1 missing the use of all hardware in both titles as you want and if someday they release North Africa, same.

< Message edited by Hexagon -- 8/31/2020 10:35:05 AM >

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 6
RE: Question about updates - 8/31/2020 2:44:09 PM   
thewood1

 

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So you are changing the question now. Upgrades are different than updates. A patch is an update. Going from 3.0 to 4.0 is an upgrade. There have been numerous upgrades that you have to pay for. And some include new units...some don't.

But every patch and update is free. There have been a lot of them. Where they have fixed bugs with upgrades, they have also released patches for people that don't upgrade.

btw, I stopped playing a couple years ago also. The lack of new content (paid or unpaid) finally forced me to move on. I still check back in a lot with hope they will get the ball moving. I think they made a huge mistake with modern warfare. The CM model just doesn't fit. But I still thin it does some parts of WW2 well. But to be arsed with the constant issues when updating, it wasn't worth it.

(in reply to Hexagon)
Post #: 7
RE: Question about updates - 8/31/2020 3:05:13 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4620
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1
btw, I stopped playing a couple years ago also. The lack of new content (paid or unpaid) finally forced me to move on. I still check back in a lot with hope they will get the ball moving. I think they made a huge mistake with modern warfare. The CM model just doesn't fit. But I still thin it does some parts of WW2 well. But to be arsed with the constant issues when updating, it wasn't worth it.

I'd been visiting the CM forum pretty much daily since CMBO came out in 2000 (?), but stopped visiting altogether several months ago--it was always the same old story. At this point, it sounds to me like they've decided to focus on military contracts for a while, so I would not hold your breath for them to get the ball rolling again. In fact, I interpreted their move to Matrix/Steam as Battlefront freeing themselves up from dealing with their existing games at all so that they can focus on other stuff.

Regards updating, whether or not one personally agrees with their approach about upgrades/updates, I think that it is undeniable that their practices:
1) are pretty unpopular with a significant number of players;
2) are confusing, with patches, upgrades, modules, etc.; and
3) inevitably result in a player base fragmented between various versions of the game, which is never a good thing.

In contrast, several other devs, including those for FOG2 and the revamped Campaign Series here at Matrix, as well as JTS, are pretty religious about releasing ALL feature upgrades to ALL players for free, and only charging for new content. Personally I think that this approach is a better commercial approach for devs that plan to release lots of content, because it keeps their engine fresh and commercially viable for much long (literally decades in the case of the JTS games). My impression has always been that the CM games' architecture didn't really facilitate this approach for some reason, which boded ill for the games' long-term future.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 8
RE: Question about updates - 8/31/2020 4:59:57 PM   
Hexagon


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For me, what they call upgrade is an patch, simple this, and i see in many games patches introducing new content without pay for it, other devs to receive more money for their work are creating new content like expansions/DLCs BUT keep games update for free the base game (from Matrix for example i have all Field of Glory II DLCs and in the original FOG i only didnt buy the last 2 DLCs because only work in the failed try to port game to a new engine... a curious idea that saddly never worked).

One problem with Battlefront is how if they release an "upgrade" crack player base because not all players are going to pay for a patch and this is the question i am doing, we are going to see the Battlefront model of pay "upgrades" or not, because if Matrix keep this for me is a non buy.

I dont want start here an old discussion (even when here is possible have it unlike in Battlefront forums... and wait if they release a pay patch in future in Steam...) i only want know about this point what i can expect BEFORE think in buy the CM titles.

< Message edited by Hexagon -- 8/31/2020 5:01:42 PM >

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 9
RE: Question about updates - 8/31/2020 5:10:29 PM   
thewood1

 

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The why did you start it? You actually are the OP and that was the first thing you said. So you start it, get some push back, now you don't want anyone to talk about it?

You have every right to complain with you perception of the process. But no one needs you blessing to continue the discussion.

(in reply to Hexagon)
Post #: 10
RE: Question about updates - 8/31/2020 6:07:05 PM   
DjangoX

 

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I stopped supporting Battlefront when they charged $5 for a fan-made patch for one of their earlier CM games. I see a lot of back and forth about Upgrades vs Updates, but the fact that there's a question show's it's an issue. I may be willing to get this if I know Matrix/Slytherine will be rolling out updates/upgrades without a fee, but I won't until I see an answer for that.

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 11
RE: Question about updates - 8/31/2020 9:10:51 PM   
Hexagon


Posts: 1132
Joined: 6/14/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

The why did you start it? You actually are the OP and that was the first thing you said. So you start it, get some push back, now you don't want anyone to talk about it?

You have every right to complain with you perception of the process. But no one needs you blessing to continue the discussion.


I dont want sound rude but i start this because i want know whats going to be the model, if is going to keep the "pay to upgrade" or not in the moment none of the Matrix/Slitherine titles in the store follow it BUT here they are the sellers of a game that is on market years ago from a dev team with a different bussiness model.

You said, and Wodin, to that in CM2 games patches are for free, and i said that this is not true at all in the moment from same game are 3 different versions and you need pay to have game update to last version.

As customer i have a doubt and i made a question.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 12
RE: Question about updates - 8/31/2020 10:04:33 PM   
thewood1

 

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I just downloaded a free patch. If someone is charging you for the patch, you're doing something wrong.

Quotes from the OP...

"Well, this is a key point for me... is going to continue the policy "pay for updates"?"

then

"I don't want start here an old discussion" Of course you also went back and edited what you said.

So what's the point of the thread?


(in reply to Hexagon)
Post #: 13
RE: Question about updates - 9/1/2020 5:14:19 AM   
RBG


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From: New Zealand
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DjangoX

I stopped supporting Battlefront when they charged $5 for a fan-made patch for one of their earlier CM games. I see a lot of back and forth about Upgrades vs Updates, but the fact that there's a question show's it's an issue. I may be willing to get this if I know Matrix/Slytherine will be rolling out updates/upgrades without a fee, but I won't until I see an answer for that.


Sorry guys, I get that some of you want to support the developer here, but the post above makes a valid point.

People are going to be put off buying the game if they are unsure as to what the upgrade policy will be.

Secondly, at the current price point many are also going to be put off purchasing eg anyone with a casual interest.

And then there's the cost of the DLC packages..... not incidental/cheap having just paid $$$ for the base game.

At the very least Battlefront should come out and state for the record how future upgrades will be rolled out, after all, I'm not sure any other of Matrix/Slitherine's offerings operate that way i.e. charging for base game improvements and splintering the user base.

I am sure Battlefront will benefit from being on Steam but because of the above issues I feel their sales numbers are going to be considerably less than would otherwise be the case. Missed opportunity.

Just my 2c.

RBG

(in reply to DjangoX)
Post #: 14
RE: Question about updates - 9/1/2020 9:16:32 AM   
chris_merchant

 

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There's never been a 'fan made' official patch released. Lots of disinformation in this forum, as per usual.

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Post #: 15
RE: Question about updates - 9/1/2020 1:27:00 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4620
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From: Washington, DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chris_merchant
There's never been a 'fan made' official patch released. Lots of disinformation in this forum, as per usual.

Well, to be clear there is the "CMBN Battle Pack 1" which includes scenarios made by a player and which costs $10 (not $5):
https://www.battlefront.com/battle-for-normandy/cmbn-battle-pack-1/

While not exactly a patch, it is paid-for player-made content, which I think was his point.

If Matrix and/or Battlefront don't like the disinformation, they should speak up, simples. Generally Battlefront's "upgrade" policies could charitably be described as "complicated", and from what I've seen, rather unpopular with many players.


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Post #: 16
RE: Question about updates - 9/1/2020 4:08:50 PM   
stickley92

 

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The updates for CMSF2

CM2 Shock Force 2
CMSF2 Engine 4 (v2.03)
CMSF2 Updated Campaigns

Would these need to be installed if your using the new Steam version?

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 17
RE: Question about updates - 9/1/2020 4:42:56 PM   
varangy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stickley92
Would these need to be installed if your using the new Steam version?


If you want to play multi against somebody with the steam version then you have to have the latest version, yes.

(in reply to stickley92)
Post #: 18
RE: Question about updates - 9/1/2020 7:57:08 PM   
DjangoX

 

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I was referring to the Vista Patch for the first 3 Combat Mission games. It doesn't look like it's for sale anymore.

My account (which is like 15 years old, lol) is too young to link right now, so google Combat Mission Vista Patch $5 if you care. I don't trust Battlefront after that, and the paid Upgrades seem like more of the same. I will also say that as soon as GOG released the first 3 Combat Missions, I bought them immediately and still play them. But I don't feel comfortable with their business model and haven't bought anything newer than Shock Force 1 (which this is just an upgrade of?), which I did not enjoy upon release.

(in reply to varangy)
Post #: 19
RE: Question about updates - 9/3/2020 11:33:19 AM   
chris_merchant

 

Posts: 67
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BF took on a new programmer to code the patch mentioned above. So it was not fan made.

(in reply to DjangoX)
Post #: 20
RE: Question about updates - 9/5/2020 1:28:26 PM   
Joch1955

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stickley92

The updates for CMSF2

CM2 Shock Force 2
CMSF2 Engine 4 (v2.03)
CMSF2 Updated Campaigns

Would these need to be installed if your using the new Steam version?


CMSF2 on Steam includes all the previous updates, so no need to instal anything else. There will be an updated Brit campaign coming out, but that will be free.

(in reply to stickley92)
Post #: 21
RE: Question about updates - 9/7/2020 8:38:54 PM   
GA01

 

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This developer is going to get crucified on Steam with his upgrade or patch policy. The "so-called" upgrades listed in 776mm's post are typically included for free in patches for games on Steam. Steam forums are brutal and this is not going to be pretty. Unforgently Slitherine is also going to catch hell over this.

(in reply to Joch1955)
Post #: 22
RE: Question about updates - 9/7/2020 10:33:30 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4620
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GA01
This developer is going to get crucified on Steam with his upgrade or patch policy. The "so-called" upgrades listed in 776mm's post are typically included for free in patches for games on Steam.

Honestly I'm not sure that this will be an issue for the simple reason that I doubt that there will be any "upgrades" for the foreseeable future, maybe another minor patch or two, but that's it.

While this is just a guess, my interpretation of this whole CM move to Steam is Battlefront shifting focus to other stuff (military contracts, etc.), and so I'm not sure how much effort we'll see on the CM games for the foreseeable future. I would say that "hopefully" the CMRT module--which supposedly has been "almost ready" for something like three years now--will be released at some point, but frankly I don't care any more.

(in reply to GA01)
Post #: 23
RE: Question about updates - 9/10/2020 5:49:35 PM   
Hexagon


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Maybe is like you said 76mm... move CM2 to Steam-Matrix is only possible because the "civil part" is finished and after release of "Fire and ruble" no more work is going to be made... as you said, when an expansion is reado to release in 3 years and is not yet out... i expect see someday North Africa or a never touched WWII front but...

Steam forums are going to be brutal specially when you ask that amount of money and are other games in market in continuous improvement and releasing content all the time.

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 24
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