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Devs - get rid of naval shore bombing exp. bonus - 8/23/2020 5:22:22 PM   
ThunderLizard2

 

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It's so gamey for people to attack the same shore city and bump their ships to level 12 or 13. Really boring/annoying to watch on reply as well.
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RE: Devs - get rid of naval shore bombing exp. bonus - 8/23/2020 10:21:42 PM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThunderLizard2

It's so gamey for people to attack the same shore city and bump their ships to level 12 or 13. Really boring/annoying to watch on reply as well.


Agreed too gamey and exploitable! Experience should only come from attacking ships...

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 9/16/2020 1:55:48 AM >


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RE: Devs - get rid of naval shore bombing exp. bonus - 8/24/2020 1:42:41 AM   
Elessar2


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I don't understand: wouldn't the occ. damage point taken by the ships in question take away just as much experience as would be gained?

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RE: Devs - get rid of naval shore bombing exp. bonus - 8/24/2020 2:27:39 AM   
pjg100

 

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That has been my experience - you can build up XP this way but it is slow and expensive.

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RE: Devs - get rid of naval shore bombing exp. bonus - 8/24/2020 3:17:21 AM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


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From: Elvis served 3rd Armored, Friedberg, West Germany
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The negative, it gives away your position.

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RE: Devs - get rid of naval shore bombing exp. bonus - 8/24/2020 4:34:25 AM   
ThunderLizard2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

I don't understand: wouldn't the occ. damage point taken by the ships in question take away just as much experience as would be gained?


No seasoned players attack weakened towns over and over and that gives experience points. Very gamey, annoying and unrealistic. Obviously if people lost points doing this they would stop.

(in reply to Elessar2)
Post #: 6
RE: Devs - get rid of naval shore bombing exp. bonus - 8/28/2020 6:34:06 PM   
Christolos


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Another thing I noticed is that shore bombardment will lift the Fog of War such that bombarded units that were previously unspotted by ships about to bombard (because of the change to 0 land spotting range), become visible immediately after the bombardment!
In the picture below, the two Japanese Special Forces units, one at Nauru and the other at Tarawa, were previously unspotted, even after having moved the shown Battleships adjacent to them in preparation for bombarding them. The two units in question were immediately revealed after being bombarded only once:


I suspect this is a bug since the game was changed to having naval units no longer being able to spot one hex inland. This aspect is WAD, but units being revealed after being bombarded, makes no sense at all.

I will also post this in a separate thread on its own.

C

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Christolos -- 8/28/2020 6:40:55 PM >


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RE: Devs - get rid of naval shore bombing exp. bonus - 8/28/2020 10:00:58 PM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Christolos

Another thing I noticed is that shore bombardment will lift the Fog of War such that bombarded units that were previously unspotted by ships about to bombard (because of the change to 0 land spotting range), become visible immediately after the bombardment!



This is true, but also notice, you do not know the units strength :) That's what makes it cool!

I've always wanted units NOT to show their accurate strength, morale, and other statistics. FOW is what makes the game.

Don't change this shore bombardment which at least notifies if a unit is present.

(in reply to Christolos)
Post #: 8
RE: Devs - get rid of naval shore bombing exp. bonus - 9/15/2020 10:22:01 AM   
Marcinos1985

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThunderLizard2


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

I don't understand: wouldn't the occ. damage point taken by the ships in question take away just as much experience as would be gained?


No seasoned players attack weakened towns over and over and that gives experience points. Very gamey, annoying and unrealistic. Obviously if people lost points doing this they would stop.


Seconded. In one of my recent games Pakhoi was bombed each turn by most Japanese ships, carriers included. At first it did some dmg back, but when it got reduced to zero, there was no retaliation. And then for nearly 1,5 years it was bombed back and forth by ships and carriers, each turn, granting them at best 2 pips of exp.

No bad feelings against my opponent, he just uses mechanics to his advantage. Just saiyng it probably wasn't intended like this.

And yes, it is boring to watch.

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RE: Devs - get rid of naval shore bombing exp. bonus - 9/15/2020 12:41:52 PM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


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Obviously to anyone who has played me, I'm most guilty of this. I even made a thread about it: avant-garde #1 -Pakhoi your personal Jap training center

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4817768

I always shore bombard Denmark and Netherlands.
I've only seen one other players do this, and since we are not naming players in 2020 because everyone is super sensitive in society, I will not name that player either.

There's no other way to get Naval experience. Any battle, you'll take damage, so it's pointless. Considering the Germans are given a Cross of Iron for killing sleeping farmers in Poland, Low Countries, early Russia, etc. Why can't other countries do this? It ridiculous the amount of "German worship" there is in life for the Panzer Generals. People make military heroes of these guys from 1939-1942, then say "Oh, the American Factories won the war and Patton is a below average General.".

I will agree that replays can be a drag. But hey, consider it as "free scouting" to know where my ships are.

(in reply to Marcinos1985)
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RE: Devs - get rid of naval shore bombing exp. bonus - 9/16/2020 2:01:25 AM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

Obviously to anyone who has played me, I'm most guilty of this. I even made a thread about it: avant-garde #1 -Pakhoi your personal Jap training center

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4817768

I always shore bombard Denmark and Netherlands.
I've only seen one other players do this, and since we are not naming players in 2020 because everyone is super sensitive in society, I will not name that player either.

There's no other way to get Naval experience. Any battle, you'll take damage, so it's pointless. Considering the Germans are given a Cross of Iron for killing sleeping farmers in Poland, Low Countries, early Russia, etc. Why can't other countries do this? It ridiculous the amount of "German worship" there is in life for the Panzer Generals. People make military heroes of these guys from 1939-1942, then say "Oh, the American Factories won the war and Patton is a below average General.".

I will agree that replays can be a drag. But hey, consider it as "free scouting" to know where my ships are.



This again I can't believe you are still defending this ridiculousness. You should only get experience from real live battle of any kind. Period. Players having to watch this gaminess over and over on replay is just another reason to get rid of this gamey tactic.

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RE: Devs - get rid of naval shore bombing exp. bonus - 9/16/2020 3:36:39 AM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


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From: Elvis served 3rd Armored, Friedberg, West Germany
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I disagree.

1) Bore sighting --- Practice makes perfect, going to the range and hitting a bucket of golf balls before a round, gives me an edge
2) Sailors who sit on a ship for 6-months are more seaworthy (thus experienced) in many things over a rookie, experience or not. Seasickness, day-to-day drills, & everyday life at sea.
3) Maneuvers by the Captain. Starboard into a headwind, drafting of directional waves, navigation, map checking. The more your sail, the more you know/learn. Thus experience.

So the Germans get this.

a) German Generals + Technology begin 1939 with Command & Control + 1. Why? Where did they fight? I don't read about Erich von Manstein, Michael Wittmann, Heinz Wilhelm Guderian in a battle.
b) Destroying Poland (who were sleeping farmers) does not count as a battle. Kissing your sister isn't a date. Playing basketball against a midget isn't experience.
c) Defeating France (who revealed later many were pro-Nazi) certainly isn't experience. Mike Tyson fought bums, until Evander Holyfield. Muhammad Ali fought bums, until he got Joe Frazier.

The Americans are disrespected.

--Patton had the "Wow" factor, the real leadership, the 3rd Army was a machine
--Japs had all kind of "experience" trashing 3rd world countries, and military victories leading upto Midway. What happened? American brains.
--American Pilots were & are more brave than anyone on the planet. We fight for a better cause.
--Japs got stuck on their strategy of perimeter defenses, the Yanks only fell for that once.
--Americans had better riflemen than both Gerry & Japs. Per captia, back then, and now, we got lots of Deerhunters who are naturals.
--German leaders could not wrap their brains around "intangibles". There's more to winning than counting tanks, flanks, & munitions. There's intangibles. Bring your winter coats, morale, hope, cause.

You can have all the experience & practice you want, but if you stink, you stink.

(in reply to Tanaka)
Post #: 12
RE: Devs - get rid of naval shore bombing exp. bonus - 9/16/2020 3:01:18 PM   
BiteNibbleChomp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

I disagree.

1) Bore sighting --- Practice makes perfect, going to the range and hitting a bucket of golf balls before a round, gives me an edge
2) Sailors who sit on a ship for 6-months are more seaworthy (thus experienced) in many things over a rookie, experience or not. Seasickness, day-to-day drills, & everyday life at sea.
3) Maneuvers by the Captain. Starboard into a headwind, drafting of directional waves, navigation, map checking. The more your sail, the more you know/learn. Thus experience.


Sailors on a ship when it is busy cruising around on patrol, or protecting convoys, or literally anything other than sitting in port, will be doing regular drills and training on the ship. Gunners would practise firing the guns at dummy targets (albeit most likely with blank shells). Navigators spend all day navigating. Engineers spend all day making sure machinery is working right. They don't just sit around until an enemy comes up and attacks them.

Shooting at an undefended town (which is a much larger target than a ship, and doesn't move), probably wouldn't be any better a training exercise than the daily drills. Probably worth the same amount of experience stars as those daily drills are too.

quote:



So the Germans get this.

a) German Generals + Technology begin 1939 with Command & Control + 1. Why? Where did they fight? I don't read about Erich von Manstein, Michael Wittmann, Heinz Wilhelm Guderian in a battle.
b) Destroying Poland (who were sleeping farmers) does not count as a battle. Kissing your sister isn't a date. Playing basketball against a midget isn't experience.
c) Defeating France (who revealed later many were pro-Nazi) certainly isn't experience. Mike Tyson fought bums, until Evander Holyfield. Muhammad Ali fought bums, until he got Joe Frazier.


There's more to command and control than just battles. Equipping tanks with radios, ensuring the chain of command is well defined, telephone communications are set up, ensuring all leaders have access to detailed plans, and know what to do when things go pear-shaped. The Germans were excellent at this, the French quite emphatically were not.

The 50,000 German casualties during Fall Weiss would disagree with you about Poland not being a battle. Geography, manpower, better equipment gave the Germans a tremendous advantage over the Poles, but the Poles definitely weren't a walkover. They fought hard.

And France counts as experience if literally anything does. In 1938 France was considered to have the finest army in the world, and on paper there is very good reason to agree with that. They had four million men (most of whom were just as determined to keep the Germans out as their fathers had been in 1914), as many tanks as the Germans had if not more (and far stronger, though not necessarily better, ones at that), and when the Low Countries and BEF are included, a comparable fighter strength to the Luftwaffe. They were defeated because the German generals handled the battle far better than the French generals, not because France was a pushover.

quote:



The Americans are disrespected.

--Patton had the "Wow" factor, the real leadership, the 3rd Army was a machine
--Japs had all kind of "experience" trashing 3rd world countries, and military victories leading upto Midway. What happened? American brains.
--American Pilots were & are more brave than anyone on the planet. We fight for a better cause.
--Japs got stuck on their strategy of perimeter defenses, the Yanks only fell for that once.
--Americans had better riflemen than both Gerry & Japs. Per captia, back then, and now, we got lots of Deerhunters who are naturals.
--German leaders could not wrap their brains around "intangibles". There's more to winning than counting tanks, flanks, & munitions. There's intangibles. Bring your winter coats, morale, hope, cause.

You can have all the experience & practice you want, but if you stink, you stink.


The Americans were hardly supermen either. They had their fair share of screw ups, the difference is that they had five times the industrial power of Germany and fifteen times that of Japan, so any mistake they made would affect them less severely in the future. Also, they could afford to give their troops more training than the Axis or the Soviets, because their country wasn't being bombed day and night. More training produces better troops - notice that when the Americans stopped caring so much about training their army, they got whipped in Korea. The exception being the Marines, which kept up their training!

Also I find the part about "Japan trashed 3rd world countries" interesting - in practise doing so would look very similar to your tactic of bombarding an empty town over and over. Yet you then state that the force that did so was stopped cold at Midway. So clearly bombing empty towns isn't really worth the XP that it provides. :)

- BNC


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(in reply to ElvisJJonesRambo)
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RE: Devs - get rid of naval shore bombing exp. bonus - 9/16/2020 11:46:01 PM   
Bo Rearguard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo


--Americans had better riflemen than both Gerry & Japs. Per captia, back then, and now, we got lots of Deerhunters who are naturals.



Sadly, the US Army tended to fill its combat infantry ranks with the uneducated, unskilled, and unenthusiastic recruits, leaving the the better quality recruits for the technical branches. Post-war studies found that only fifteen percent of riflemen in average units ever fired a shot during combat. In the elite formations, such a the paratroopers the percentage doubled.

All this meant that American infantry lacked aggressiveness in the attack, a characteristic that manifested itself particularly during the fighting in Normandy, the Westwall and the counterattack phase of the Battle of the Bulge.

Another problem was a shortage of riflemen. In early December 1944, shortages of infantry rifle replacements in the European theater increased sharply. The theater had been experiencing shortfalls of riflemen since July 1944, and its Ground Force Replacement Command engaged in a training program to convert enlisted men from other arms and services into the infantry. The German counteroffensive in the Ardennes, however, worsened this need for riflemen still further. That's when the US Army finally got desperate enough to start asking African-Americans to volunteer as infantry replacements.


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Post #: 14
RE: Devs - get rid of naval shore bombing exp. bonus - 9/17/2020 12:58:22 PM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


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From: Elvis served 3rd Armored, Friedberg, West Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bo Rearguard


quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo


--Americans had better riflemen than both Gerry & Japs. Per captia, back then, and now, we got lots of Deerhunters who are naturals.



Sadly, the US Army tended to fill its combat infantry ranks with the uneducated, unskilled, and unenthusiastic recruits, leaving the the better quality recruits for the technical branches. Post-war studies found that only fifteen percent of riflemen in average units ever fired a shot during combat. In the elite formations, such a the paratroopers the percentage doubled.

All this meant that American infantry lacked aggressiveness in the attack, a characteristic that manifested itself particularly during the fighting in Normandy, the Westwall and the counterattack phase of the Battle of the Bulge.

Another problem was a shortage of riflemen. In early December 1944, shortages of infantry rifle replacements in the European theater increased sharply. The theater had been experiencing shortfalls of riflemen since July 1944, and its Ground Force Replacement Command engaged in a training program to convert enlisted men from other arms and services into the infantry. The German counteroffensive in the Ardennes, however, worsened this need for riflemen still further. That's when the US Army finally got desperate enough to start asking African-Americans to volunteer as infantry replacements.



15% fired their weapons. Then the 15% that fired, did 100% of the damage to the Germans/Japs. That makes those 15% pretty dang sweet!

Amazing, every year the percentage that fires, keeps going down. Used to be, 25% fired. I must have missed the latest WW2 Book on the subject. Next year's addition. Only 1% Americans fired their weapon in WW2 + Audie Murphy was really a robot. And final chapter. The weapons fired themselves.





(in reply to Bo Rearguard)
Post #: 15
RE: Devs - get rid of naval shore bombing exp. bonus - 9/18/2020 5:26:29 PM   
ThunderLizard2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

Obviously to anyone who has played me, I'm most guilty of this. I even made a thread about it: avant-garde #1 -Pakhoi your personal Jap training center

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4817768

I always shore bombard Denmark and Netherlands.
I've only seen one other players do this, and since we are not naming players in 2020 because everyone is super sensitive in society, I will not name that player either.

There's no other way to get Naval experience. Any battle, you'll take damage, so it's pointless. Considering the Germans are given a Cross of Iron for killing sleeping farmers in Poland, Low Countries, early Russia, etc. Why can't other countries do this? It ridiculous the amount of "German worship" there is in life for the Panzer Generals. People make military heroes of these guys from 1939-1942, then say "Oh, the American Factories won the war and Patton is a below average General.".

I will agree that replays can be a drag. But hey, consider it as "free scouting" to know where my ships are.



This again I can't believe you are still defending this ridiculousness. You should only get experience from real live battle of any kind. Period. Players having to watch this gaminess over and over on replay is just another reason to get rid of this gamey tactic.


Devs should rethink experience gaining mechanics in general. For naval, should get experience from naval battles and convoy raiding. If shore bombardment is allowed there should be a higher penalty to make the pracitce of attacking the same spot every turn less appealing.

I'd have to think about land experience as well but they're too many level 12 and 13 units floating around in many of my PBEM matches.

(in reply to Tanaka)
Post #: 16
RE: Devs - get rid of naval shore bombing exp. bonus - 9/18/2020 7:29:40 PM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


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From: Elvis served 3rd Armored, Friedberg, West Germany
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Ever notice how Garrisons get promoted to Elite the fastest?

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RE: Devs - get rid of naval shore bombing exp. bonus - 9/20/2020 10:48:28 PM   
Torplexed


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bo Rearguard

Sadly, the US Army tended to fill its combat infantry ranks with the uneducated, unskilled, and unenthusiastic recruits, leaving the the better quality recruits for the technical branches. Post-war studies found that only fifteen percent of riflemen in average units ever fired a shot during combat. In the elite formations, such a the paratroopers the percentage doubled.

All this meant that American infantry lacked aggressiveness in the attack, a characteristic that manifested itself particularly during the fighting in Normandy, the Westwall and the counterattack phase of the Battle of the Bulge.

Another problem was a shortage of riflemen. In early December 1944, shortages of infantry rifle replacements in the European theater increased sharply. The theater had been experiencing shortfalls of riflemen since July 1944, and its Ground Force Replacement Command engaged in a training program to convert enlisted men from other arms and services into the infantry. The German counteroffensive in the Ardennes, however, worsened this need for riflemen still further. That's when the US Army finally got desperate enough to start asking African-Americans to volunteer as infantry replacements.



General James Gavin of the 82nd Airborne often raged about the limitations of the US Army infantry formations besides which his paratroopers had to fight. He wrote in his diary in January 1945:

"If our infantry would fight, this war would be over by now. On our present front, there are two very weak German regiments holding the XVIII Corps of four divisions. We all know it and admit it, and yet nothing is done about it. American infantry just simply will not fight. No one wants to be killed... Our artillery is wonderful and our air corps not bad. But the regular infantry---terrible. Everybody wants to live to a ripe old age. The sight of a few Germans drives them to their holes. Instead of being imbued with an overwhelming desire to get close to the Germans and get him by the throat, they want to avoid him if the artillery has not already knocked him flat."

Awww. C'mon General Gavin, can you blame guys for wanting to live to a ripe old age?

You get the feeling that a lot of the generals in the hard charging elite formations, like Gavin and Matthew Ridgeway in the paratroopers and General Holland Smith in the Marines were often frustrated that they couldn't make the regular Army conscripts perform like the volunteer pros they commanded. Didn't they realize that if everyone is elite than no one is?

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RE: Devs - get rid of naval shore bombing exp. bonus - 9/21/2020 2:41:08 AM   
Bo Rearguard


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From: Basement of the Alamo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Torplexed

You get the feeling that a lot of the generals in the hard charging elite formations, like Gavin and Matthew Ridgeway in the paratroopers and General Holland Smith in the Marines were often frustrated that they couldn't make the regular Army conscripts perform like the volunteer pros they commanded. Didn't they realize that if everyone is elite than no one is?


It's not much of an overstatement to say that the US Army and Marine Corps have often loathed each other. The Marines considered themselves elite infantry, and crowed over their status as such to Army soldiers. The Army in turn insisted that its own divisions were perfectly capable of amphibious assaults and that the existence of the Marine Corps was thus an unnecessary and wasteful duplication of effort. The Army also insisted that Marine officers lacked the training and doctrine to handle units of division size or larger, a belief that may have had some basis up to the First World War.

Marine General Lejeune's successful leadership of the 2nd Division in France during WWI switched the Army position to one of claiming that Marines couldn't manage units of corps size or larger but otherwise left their negative attitude essentially unchanged. This attitude was reflected in the Army's very angry reaction to Holland Smith's decision to sack Gen. Ralph Smith from command of the Army's 27th Division at Saipan when it failed to keep up with the Marine divisions on its flanks.

It also doesn't help that following almost every American war, there was a proposal by the Army to either disband or absorb the Marine Corps into the other services. Then-Army Chief of Staff Dwight D. Eisenhower championed the strongest attempt after WWII to President Truman.

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Post #: 19
RE: Devs - get rid of naval shore bombing exp. bonus - 9/27/2020 5:46:27 PM   
ThunderLizard2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bo Rearguard


quote:

ORIGINAL: Torplexed

You get the feeling that a lot of the generals in the hard charging elite formations, like Gavin and Matthew Ridgeway in the paratroopers and General Holland Smith in the Marines were often frustrated that they couldn't make the regular Army conscripts perform like the volunteer pros they commanded. Didn't they realize that if everyone is elite than no one is?


It's not much of an overstatement to say that the US Army and Marine Corps have often loathed each other. The Marines considered themselves elite infantry, and crowed over their status as such to Army soldiers. The Army in turn insisted that its own divisions were perfectly capable of amphibious assaults and that the existence of the Marine Corps was thus an unnecessary and wasteful duplication of effort. The Army also insisted that Marine officers lacked the training and doctrine to handle units of division size or larger, a belief that may have had some basis up to the First World War.

Marine General Lejeune's successful leadership of the 2nd Division in France during WWI switched the Army position to one of claiming that Marines couldn't manage units of corps size or larger but otherwise left their negative attitude essentially unchanged. This attitude was reflected in the Army's very angry reaction to Holland Smith's decision to sack Gen. Ralph Smith from command of the Army's 27th Division at Saipan when it failed to keep up with the Marine divisions on its flanks.

It also doesn't help that following almost every American war, there was a proposal by the Army to either disband or absorb the Marine Corps into the other services. Then-Army Chief of Staff Dwight D. Eisenhower championed the strongest attempt after WWII to President Truman.


Marines again proved their worth (if that was even required) in Korea at the Pusan perimeter where the 5th Marines held the line against fierce attacks.

(in reply to Bo Rearguard)
Post #: 20
RE: Devs - get rid of naval shore bombing exp. bonus - 9/27/2020 7:35:46 PM   
Bo Rearguard


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From: Basement of the Alamo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThunderLizard2




Marines again proved their worth (if that was even required) in Korea at the Pusan perimeter where the 5th Marines held the line against fierce attacks.


It does seem incredible after the feats of valor the Marines performed in WWII that it would ever be an issue, but yeah, the future of the Corps was in jeopardy even then. They had to fight for survival in the Senate in 1947. The Army brass really resented the Marines’ intrusion into the Army’s customary land-warfare sphere. With the coming of peace and the succession to the presidency of Harry Truman, who harbored anti-Navy and anti-Marine Corps biases, force unification was pursued in earnest. General George C. Marshall, was overheard muttering that the Corps should be kept “very small” and vowing that he would “see that the Marines never win another war.” Jealousy over good Marine press was definitely a factor.


Anyway, Eisenhower, Marshall, Truman, and the rest soon had to eat North Korean crow.

Like you said, the Korean war started and it was a conventional war. The Marines saved Pusan and Inchon became a classic amphibious operation by the First Marine Division.





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