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Polish-Soviet War - Battle of Warsaw 1920

 
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Polish-Soviet War - Battle of Warsaw 1920 - 8/19/2020 3:43:19 PM   
Jazon

 

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Hi everyone.
This year is 100th anniversary of battle of Warsaw 1920, and i think it could be nice scenario in divisinal scale, or whole war of 1920, including polish advance at Kiev, than Soviet counteratack with clash at Vistula and the Niemen battle in the autumn. Anybody would be willing to help me making it? This is actually pretty good material for scenario because both sides are actually almost even, and it depends on players strategy mostly who is going to win. Also during this war was the last large scale cavlary battle in the world between polish uhlans and sowiet Konarmia.
So how do you think? Should it be made on divisional level?
Or rather strategic scale including more politics and issues like fromin g alliances with Ukraine and Baltic states? How do you think guys?
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RE: Polish-Soviet War - Battle of Warsaw 1920 - 8/19/2020 3:55:13 PM   
FOARP

 

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Hi Jazon. This sounds like a great subject for a mod! Happily SC3 has a decent editor and the map of Europe is already built, so the main thing to do is to research the orders of battle for each side (this looks like a good source) and then put the units onto the map. You will have to add the Soviets into the game (in practice you could just change the Russian flag and country-name to be Soviet) as well as the Poles (I think the assets are there to do this) and change the date at which the game starts but these are all relatively easy to do. Then you just need to add events and AI scripting, which can be quite difficult although the scenarios is relatively simple in comparison to WW1 as a whole.

Whilst I'm working on my own mod most of the time, if you need pointers on how to do this yourself please feel free to send me a PM.

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RE: Polish-Soviet War - Battle of Warsaw 1920 - 8/20/2020 3:37:59 PM   
OberGeneral

 

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Great idea for a stategic campaign. Looking forward to it!

If you can get a copy of White Eagle, Red Star. The Polish-Soviet war, 1919-20, that would really
be a big help. Library maybe or purchase if you can?

< Message edited by OberGeneral -- 8/21/2020 1:46:49 PM >

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RE: Polish-Soviet War - Battle of Warsaw 1920 - 8/21/2020 5:49:25 PM   
Jazon

 

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Hi All.
I did some concept works about this MOD/Scenario for polish Soviet war. Here are my ideas, and thoughts, but please anyone intrested don’t hesitate to give me a hint, or advice.
Name: White Eagle vs. Red Star 1920 [just as a book title by Norman Davies]
Time: April 1920 – October 1920 This is due to fact of real time of the conlfict, and the fact that early spring and late autumn in Eastern Europe is time when mud, called in Russian „razputitsya” effectively blocks any major land operations.
Turns: Not yet decided; daily, weekly (?) suggestions welcomed
Map: will include a rectangle shaped area ; from Vienna South to Gotland Island in north west , then turn east to Riga and Vielikye Luki, than turn south to Kiev and Uman at south east corner. This Area cover all Poland territory during this period and also gives the Soviet player enough „strategic depth” at the early stage of the battle. (At least i think so)
Scale: To bring into play all flavour of this conflict in my opinion divisional scale would be the best. So according to manual, as i calculate map height would be 80-90 hexes (from vienna to gotland); width would be about 100 hexes, from Vienna to Uman (it is 1021 km, so 10 km per hex circa). This should be fine according to units movement, rifle division standard at this times were 30 km/day; unless forced marched)
Units: Main would be divisions, some detachments.
I would like units would give the impression of the time, some here is ad hoc list of those that would give the historical bite ti it(Aside from standard rifle divisions and cavlary units, HQs and artillery):
Poland: R-17 Tanks Unit supplied by entante; Polish Uhlans(actually different in tactics and use than western front cavlary); Armoured trains unit(vastly used by both sides in this conflict); American Volunteers Recon Bomber Squad(recon planes gived big advantage to Poles in reconessaince); polish volonteer Army Units – As Polish forces were losing ground and Soviets were closer and closer to capital, there was massive movement of peapole willing to defend recently gain independance, 10% of whole polish army were strictly volunteers
Soviets: Armoured Cars(since they didn’t tanks, but vastly used ArmCars); Konarmia (Cavlary Army Units commanded by Budionny, they were very mobile and independent, and different from regular cavalary in tactics(using mobile machinguns tachankas etc.), Armoured Trains unit, anybody knows about Soviet airforces in this period at this front?), communist saboteurs, revolutionary forces formed on conquered lands from local people. Anybody knows about some intresting Soviet units worth mentioned please give me a hint.
Ukraine: Forces of Ataman Petlura – I am not yet sure if they should join Poles automatically or it should be a decision to make. Anybody who can give me a hint about their quantity please let me know.
Scripts – Events:
I put here my ideas, feel free to give more:
-forming polish-ukrainian Alliance, Pilsudski decides to strike on soviets, Ukrainina Units joins Poles
- Tuhachevski and Budionny bring reinforcments for Soviets, counteroffensive begins
- Lenin proclaims march to the West „to give hand for a german revolution” Soviet Morale boosted(?)
- Entante sent Military advisors (Weygand-Poland extra HQ?)
- Poles crack Soviet codes (Research -Spying and intelligence advance two levels?)
- Pro-revolution strikes and turmoil in industry areas in Poland (production depleted? Soviet partisans?)
- surge of Voulunteers – Poland gain unexperienced divisions in production queue
- Czechs took their chances while Poland struggling and take Zaolzie – Poland lose town in the south
- soviet agents spread propaganda, hinders supply, Entante convoys need to go through hungary and Romania
- Baltic States (any suggestions how to implement them? They remained neutral although Poles marched Latvias teritory during Niemen battle and suprised soviets; what about Lithuania
- East Prussia – soviets allowed to withdraw to Prussia(they are eleminated but could be rebuild at half price)
- White Russians – events that could intrfere soviets
- Tuhachevskiy and Budionny rivalry (?)
- Soviets capture Bialystok or any major city – formig of temporary Revolutionary Polish Comitee – Soviet morale boosted(?)

Victory Conditions:
thats tricky, Waiting for suggestions
LAST
How to open in editor file in picture format, so I can base of actuall historical map, and then just put grid on it and „fill it up” with all elemtents.
Thanks and looking forward for advices.
Jazon




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RE: Polish-Soviet War - Battle of Warsaw 1920 - 8/27/2020 7:44:54 PM   
OberGeneral

 

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Looks like you pretty well have it fleshed out. I would say that a good start.

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RE: Polish-Soviet War - Battle of Warsaw 1920 - 9/12/2020 5:56:14 AM   
Jazon

 

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Hi,
I would like to share some of my experiences in making map for this campaign. First I needed to find adequate historical map that covers the conflict area. I decide to use the polish map from 1930 made by E. Romer. It was standard map that was used in schools and universities at that time. Also I was pleasantly surprised i found a free scan of it in extra high quality (33 MB!)
Although it is from 1930, I think the area and scale suitable for campaign needs. Second step was to put a hex grid on it. To be honest I failed to do this on my own. After several attempts using different programs, and wasting hours, finally I decided to let somebody to do it for me. I went to my local printing/photocopying center and explained to a girl that works there what I want. It turned out for her it was like 15 mins to do the job. It was easy to scale it, at the bottom of this map there is a scale so, each 100 km should be around 10 hexes. Later we printed the map in pieces. I still got high-res with hexes to check really small details, but for real work i prefer all good paper, and then put it into editor. This way I can avoid jumping between editor and photo viewer on my computer. Down below i present how it look like.
For time being I am learning how to use editor, and started to put on map some features. If anyone got more experience in map creating feel free to give me a hint.




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< Message edited by Jazon -- 9/12/2020 5:58:42 AM >

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RE: Polish-Soviet War - Battle of Warsaw 1920 - 9/12/2020 6:02:07 AM   
Jazon

 

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And here how it looks like in editor so far. Actually as I said it took me loads of time, especially pieces of coast to make them alike to the terrain shape on the map.




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RE: Polish-Soviet War - Battle of Warsaw 1920 - 9/12/2020 9:05:47 AM   
FOARP

 

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A good first effort, and I definitely agree that the coastline system is very tricky to use.

The long isthmus in the gulf of Gdańsk has a few discontinuities on it but it’s a choice between this and making the isthmus thicker and less straight. Since not much combat will happen near there and the isthmus is anyway impassable I suppose it doesn’t matter much.

Looking forward to seeing how this one turns out.

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RE: Polish-Soviet War - Battle of Warsaw 1920 - 9/19/2020 5:05:50 PM   
Jazon

 

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Hi,
today I finished the East Prussia piece of my map for 1920 mod.I got some questions - do I need to type each town name into "text layer" in order it to be seen on the map, or it will appear automatically{ the name i typed in properties} while I will launch a game?
Other thing is, what's the difference for a gameplay between a road and dirt road? My next step is central Poland, and I have nice resource - scanned road and railway map published by polish automobile club in 1913, but I am still considering how to judge what shall be "road" and what should be "dirt road".
Railroads are easy, with them I am 100% sure did it with historical accuracy. Actually East Prussia becasue of military reasons can boast excellent infrastructure for its times. Anyway, I would appreciate any suggestions.





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RE: Polish-Soviet War - Battle of Warsaw 1920 - 9/20/2020 3:37:43 PM   
FOARP

 

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Looks good!

AFAIK you have to type the names twice (i.e., once to identify the name to the game, once to add the display text in the correct location). You can also use the text layer to add the names of lakes etc. so that they appear on the map. Rivers should be named using select -> right-click -> rename.

Dirt roads v. metalled roads is something you have to decide for yourself. A rough rule could be to pave the roads in the formerly German controlled-areas and leave them unpaved in the formerly Russian-controlled areas.

There are special river hexes for outflows into the sea (select river hex in the editor and scroll down until you get to 157-264 for ordinary river outflows on land hexes, 265-288 for ordinary river outflows on sea hexes, 447-554 for outflows on land hexes for major rivers, and 555-578 for major river outflows on sea hexes). You can use these hexes to make river-outflows that appear good on the map - having the river just stick out into the sea looks a bit odd. Similar, there are special hexes for where the rivers begin.

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RE: Polish-Soviet War - Battle of Warsaw 1920 - 9/21/2020 8:42:19 AM   
BillRunacre

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jazon

what's the difference for a gameplay between a road and dirt road?


The dirt roads effectively don't exist when there is Mud, so they are not all weather roads.

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RE: Polish-Soviet War - Battle of Warsaw 1920 - 9/24/2020 3:12:02 PM   
Jazon

 

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Thanks Bill for explaining me the difference between roads and mud roads for gameplay.
I use original road map from 1913, and for roads described as „ministerial roads” in former Russian owned territory i use „roads” layer, others I treat as „dirt roads”.
Thanks Foarp for explaining the names issue. I put the names for towns now, I use for each country original names in native language-Lithuanian city names were pretty tricky!
Also I will try to add outflows and sources for rivers, so the map will look more eye-pleasant.
I almost finished first quarter of the map – East Prussia and Lithuania:






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RE: Polish-Soviet War - Battle of Warsaw 1920 - 9/24/2020 4:00:04 PM   
FOARP

 

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Looks great! I'm looking forward to playing this mod: Nie podamy się!

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RE: Polish-Soviet War - Battle of Warsaw 1920 - 9/25/2020 9:59:20 AM   
BillRunacre

 

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Indeed, this is looking interesting.

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RE: Polish-Soviet War - Battle of Warsaw 1920 - 9/26/2020 7:50:12 AM   
Jazon

 

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Thanks for encouragement! I keep working to finish first quarter, below is a picture with East Prussia, polish territory is still under design.
So far I face a problem how to decide which terrain should be treated as "hills", because its not simply the altitude that makes area a hill, what criteria do you use guys?
Also I got question how should I value town's and cities value in MPP? It depends on whether or not town had some industry or is it based on its population?
Anyway so far i leave it to the end,when the main body of the map will be finished.
Have a nice day everyone!




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RE: Polish-Soviet War - Battle of Warsaw 1920 - 9/26/2020 9:07:52 AM   
BiteNibbleChomp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jazon

Thanks for encouragement! I keep working to finish first quarter, below is a picture with East Prussia, polish territory is still under design.
So far I face a problem how to decide which terrain should be treated as "hills", because its not simply the altitude that makes area a hill, what criteria do you use guys?
Also I got question how should I value town's and cities value in MPP? It depends on whether or not town had some industry or is it based on its population?
Anyway so far i leave it to the end,when the main body of the map will be finished.
Have a nice day everyone!


I tend to just use altitude to determine hills/mountains, except where areas are well-known to be particularly flat or hilly. Anywhere from 250-400 metres works for me as a cut-off for hills, and then above 1000m for mountains. If a large part of your map is far above sea level but also rather flat (eg the US Great Plains), then use higher values so the map isn't just hills everywhere. Much more important that you get the "feel" right than any specific value :)

Re towns/cities, it really depends on the scale and time period of your map - Minsk for instance should be a city if you are just covering the Bagration 1944 operation, but would probably be only a town on a map of all of Europe. I tend to use the following setup as a rough guide:
- Major city = the handful of largest cities on your map.
- City = a location large enough to support several HQ+units sized formations (for instance, if your main combat unit is the division, then a city would be a position with the logistical capabilities to maintain several corps from its supply dumps).
- Town = a location not quite able to handle large formations on its own, but still adequately provisioned to support a couple of units.
- Settlement = by itself, unable to adequately supply a small force with food for any length of time. Generally I would say these are villages with <1000 population.
Population is by far the easiest metric to use to determine which towns fit in each category (at least for maps set after about 1800), and generally the only exceptions I make to it would be where a less populated location is known to have a substantial arms industry.

If you want numbers, in a 19th century context I use <1000/1k-20k/20k-100k/>100k for settlement/town/city/major city. In a 20th century scenario, increase these numbers a bit because of population growth :)

- BNC

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First quarter of Map finished! - 10/5/2020 10:10:54 AM   
Jazon

 

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Thanks BiteNibbleChomp!
I have thought about what you wrote about cities, and I adjusted what you proposed:
1k-20k/20k-100k/>100k/>300k for settlement/town/city/major city. I think its fine, because it will not make map "drowning" in urban areas. Also I think it well reflects the historical reality - Eastern part of Poland/West Belarus was not dense populated.
Also some sttlements i pointed on the map are there just to organise space - like on the railroad junction in the "middle of nowhere".
I tried to reflect the poor road system in the East - according to original maps there are literally dozens of kilometers without a road or railroad, so I left it that way.
Forrests coverage - that was so tricky! Finally I found original polish map of State-owned and private owned forests in all Polish second republic. i think I can trust this source - people are usually very particular about their property.
Fields - I don't have any direct farmlands maps, but i wanted to put them on map so I brushed them just around areas that were centres of food production [This actually I could check - hence fields around towns and settlements in central Poland. The more you go East the more often you can meet "blank" areas. Below I add Mazovia screenshot, tomorrow I will upload Podlasie.
All who read this thread thanks for comments and hints.
If anyone see something that looks not esthetic or historical unnacurate let me know I will correct it.





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RE: First quarter of Map finished! - 10/5/2020 12:51:50 PM   
FOARP

 

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RE: mountains - When I started my mod I used elevation maps but they tended to just create a large area of monotonous hills/mountains. Lately I've just switched to looking at what named ranges of hills and mountains there are in a particular area (e.g., a map like this or this) - these are the ranges that the user expects to see. It also provides a ready list of named features that you can put on the map.

When putting mountains on the map it's a good idea to shape them around roads and rivers so that the roads and rivers appear to run through valleys in the mountains. You can do this using the tiles where the mountains/hills only appear on part of the tile, with the rivers/roads going through the part that remains plain. I find mountain ranges where the roads/rivers just goes straight through the middle of mountains look kind of unrealistic and ugly.

Basically, mountains/hills arranged in ranges separated by valleys look better than just a "blob" of mountains put on the map.

RE: Cities/towns/settlements - basically agree with BNC and your approach Jazon. Only thing I would say is I wouldn't make 1,000 a hard cut-off. Some islands and wilderness areas still should have settlements to fight over in them, albeit widely separated.

General comments: Really like what you've done here Jazon. I think you've found some great sources and are doing good work based on them. As a former resident of Wrocław, I'm wondering how you plan to cover the Silesian uprisings?



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RE: First quarter of Map finished! - 10/5/2020 9:11:23 PM   
BiteNibbleChomp


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Very nice work!

- BNC

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"Moves and counter-moves, that's all we've got to look at." - Plutarch Heavensbee
SC2 American Civil War 1861-1865: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4504986
SC2 Napoleonic Wars 1798-1815: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4732971

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RE: First quarter of Map finished! - 10/6/2020 12:31:34 PM   
Jazon

 

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Hi!
FOARP you are right about the mountains and rivers/roads. Soon I will be facing that while brushing the southern part of the map.
As for Silesian uprisings - during polish-bolshevik war Second Silesian Uprising took place in August 1920. I donno yet how to put this into my scenario - because it hadn't got any impact on ongoing war with Soviets. Maybe - I need to research it - Poland will cede some of it's MPPs to support the insurgents. But to be honest I need to dig into the history of this conflict more. I am reading monography about this conlfict and doing notes what events I should put into scenario.
Below you can see Podlasie region and West Belarus. I donno if its good it looks little "naked" but as far as I did my research this region was under-developed in those times.
Anyway today I will start doing second quarter of map: Vilnus, Smolensk Gate region and Polesie Marshehs.
Thanks everybody for comments and encouragement. I didnt expect this project will be so time consumming




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RE: First quarter of Map finished! - 10/6/2020 2:20:11 PM   
FOARP

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jazon

Hi!
FOARP you are right about the mountains and rivers/roads. Soon I will be facing that while brushing the southern part of the map.
As for Silesian uprisings - during polish-bolshevik war Second Silesian Uprising took place in August 1920. I donno yet how to put this into my scenario - because it hadn't got any impact on ongoing war with Soviets. Maybe - I need to research it - Poland will cede some of it's MPPs to support the insurgents. But to be honest I need to dig into the history of this conflict more. I am reading monography about this conlfict and doing notes what events I should put into scenario.
Below you can see Podlasie region and West Belarus. I donno if its good it looks little "naked" but as far as I did my research this region was under-developed in those times.
Anyway today I will start doing second quarter of map: Vilnus, Smolensk Gate region and Polesie Marshehs.
Thanks everybody for comments and encouragement. I didnt expect this project will be so time consumming





Looks good. Maybe add a little bit of bush terrain to the more blank bits of terrain and one or two hills (e.g., the Sokólskie Hills). Also labelling the lakes helps the player orient themselves. The Biała river that flows through Białstok might be worth adding onto the map - or is it too little?

Regarding Warsaw - was Praga as important then as it is now? Or was it just a small suburb at that time?

Yeah, editing maps in this system is really very time-consuming. I find I enjoy the historical research aspect of it, though, because you can learn things even about parts of the country I thought I knew well.


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Roads/forrests in Russian Empire - 10/17/2020 4:24:50 PM   
Jazon

 

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Hi,
I am stuck guys. I made the second half of my map, with rivers, railroads, towns, and marshes. But now I hit the ceiling: I need info about roads and forrests in west Russsia/Belarus and Ukraine. Anybody got any intel please let me know. I can read in polish, russian, english and german(basic). Any hint where can I find some maps or other info about it would be much appreciated.
Cheers

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RE: Roads/forrests in Russian Empire - 10/17/2020 9:03:28 PM   
FOARP

 

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You cannot go too far wrong just looking at the existing roads and forests in Google Maps. Most modern-day roads follow the paths of previous roads, most modern forests are the remnants of larger previous ones.

Based on a brief search I see this 1882 map of the Zhitomir/Kiev region, this 1883 map of the Grodno/Wilno/Minsk region, this 1916 map might also be useful. This 1911 map of Northern Rumania/Western Ukraine might also be useful. This tool seems useful but a lot of the maps it includes are no longer available.

Does this help?

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RE: Roads/forrests in Russian Empire - 10/23/2020 5:08:24 PM   
Jazon

 

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Hi,
thanks for support on this...I decided to make a few days break from doing map, and that was good decision. I researched more and more, using the tips you gave me. Finally find some German maps from 1942, one is made by wehrmacht that describes intresting region with heights, other in the same scale shows forrests. They seem pretty reliable, So I was able to finish another part of the map. I think its pretty accurate, and shows the terrain properly. Don't mind Daugavpils is a Latvia capital, I just make it like this because of the map design purpose.
About map...I don't know if people will not find it odd that there is so little roads on my map...But the more you go east, then, according to maps I researched [mostly polish and german maps from 1914-1925 period) shows in East Poland/West Belarus infrastructure is really low...
I also think is there any chance to represent the monitor fleet that were used in Pripet Marshes - Pinsk Flotilla - a group of vessels with strong firepower. Poles used them to control Pinsk and rivers around.




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Polish-Soviet War 1920 - map creating - 10/29/2020 3:09:44 AM   
Jazon

 

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North East part of map finished!




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RE: Polish-Soviet War 1920 - map creating - 10/29/2020 7:56:25 PM   
BillRunacre

 

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Nice!

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RE: Polish-Soviet War 1920 - map creating - 10/30/2020 4:40:19 PM   
FOARP

 

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Good progress!

Theoretically you could represent river-monitor fleets by using straits for the rivers, but I don't think this has a good effect, plus the ships on the rivers wouldn't be able to act as proper artillery really. I don't think low-infrastructure is a problem so long as the Bolsheviks can actually advance through it.

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