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Not getting naval "combat" - 8/17/2020 10:15:36 PM   
76mm


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I'm finally playing around a bit with ships in the scenario editor, just to see how they work.

My conclusion so far is that they don't...

I've created a couple of light naval vessels and had them attack each other for several turns. As far as I can tell, none of the ships sustained any damage despite taking fire from other ships for several turns.

I am using the eqp file for ships, which I understand should still work. The manual says that ships should take damage, which should be shown in the unit report, but the combat reports that I'm getting show 0% damage, and the unit reports don't show any damage.

Finally, the manual references "anti-ship factors", but I don't see any such thing in either the equipment editor itself or the eqp XML file.

Could some one school me a bit on basic naval stuff? I'd prefer to avoid using an nqp file if possible (just more complexity), but can do so if necessary. But it would be nice if ships were able to damage each other, for instance...
Post #: 1
RE: Not getting naval "combat" - 8/18/2020 12:26:44 AM   
Lobster


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Isn't the nqp file specifically for naval units? I thought that was why it was there.

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RE: Not getting naval "combat" - 8/18/2020 12:42:21 AM   
76mm


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The manual says that nqp files are optional, for "advanced" naval treatment, but that you can still use the eqp file. That's how I understood it anyway. I don't need "advanced" features, just for naval units to have some kind of ability to destroy each other. Every other scenario that I've seen with naval units seems to use the eqp file, although I've only looked at a few.

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RE: Not getting naval "combat" - 8/18/2020 2:55:38 AM   
Curtis Lemay


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https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4292790

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RE: Not getting naval "combat" - 8/18/2020 3:15:11 AM   
76mm


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Yes, I read that text in the manual, but neither that text nor the linked thread answers my questions. The manual says that certain naval factors will be derived from the ship's defense factor unless they are explicitly set in the nqp file. That implies that you don't have to use the nqp file.

I'm not seeing ANY damage to ANY ships that fire on each other for several turns. Since the eqp file still includes ships, I'm assuming that they can still be used if you don't want to use the nqp file. Is that correct? If so, why am I not seeing any damage at all?

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Post #: 5
RE: Not getting naval "combat" - 8/18/2020 4:42:44 AM   
Lobster


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Maybe if you gave Bob a copy of what you are doing he could help. He's probably the one who knows the most about the naval stuff.

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RE: Not getting naval "combat" - 8/18/2020 8:58:32 AM   
sPzAbt653


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Don't forget about the Naval Attrition Divider, it has an effect depending on the Scale of the scenario.

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Post #: 7
RE: Not getting naval "combat" - 8/18/2020 11:06:34 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Don't forget about the Naval Attrition Divider, it has an effect depending on the Scale of the scenario.

I'll take a look at that I guess, there are only a couple of ships involved, if that makes a difference.

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Post #: 8
RE: Not getting naval "combat" - 8/18/2020 5:54:53 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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See the Pearl Harbor AAR just referenced. It shows that the TOAW Log will give details about what's happening.

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 8/18/2020 5:55:10 PM >


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Post #: 9
RE: Not getting naval "combat" - 8/18/2020 10:59:59 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
See the Pearl Harbor AAR just referenced.

Referenced where? Not in this thread and a search does not show it in the AAR subforum either...

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Post #: 10
RE: Not getting naval "combat" - 8/18/2020 11:14:27 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
See the Pearl Harbor AAR just referenced.

Referenced where? Not in this thread and a search does not show it in the AAR subforum either...

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4814710

Post 11.

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RE: Not getting naval "combat" - 8/20/2020 2:33:06 AM   
76mm


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Thanks. I took a look at the AAR and the log, but something is not right.

First, the context...a ship from the original eqp file (a destroyer) works. I created another type of light naval--with all the same flags, etc.--and it doesn't work--it does not inflict any damage on other ships (although it takes damage just fine).

But the info in my log file seems different from in yours, and from in the manual. Here is the log created for the destroyer:
*************
FleetCombat: Destroyer bombard location 223,246.
FleetCombat: Destroyer Naval Guns 53550=75*.37*10.292200*600/16.
FleetCombat: Destroyer Naval Guns 53550=75*.37*10.292200*600/16.
FleetCombat: 535 shots.
****************
I don't see the bolded multiplier in your log or in the manual.

In the ship that doesn't work, here is the log:
**************
FleetCombat: 1124 bombard location 223,246.
FleetCombat: BK1124 Naval Guns 0=42*.33*10.292200*0/11.
FleetCombat: BK1124 Naval Guns 0=42*.33*10.292200*0/11.
FleetCombat: 0 shots.
**************
Note that the multiplier in these log entries are zero, and so the result is zero.

What is this multiplier?

< Message edited by 76mm -- 8/20/2020 2:34:25 AM >

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 12
RE: Not getting naval "combat" - 8/20/2020 2:43:04 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12322
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Thanks. I took a look at the AAR and the log, but something is not right.

First, the context...a ship from the original eqp file (a destroyer) works. I created another type of light naval--with all the same flags, etc.--and it doesn't work--it does not inflict any damage on other ships (although it takes damage just fine).

But the info in my log file seems different from in yours, and from in the manual. Here is the log created for the destroyer:
*************
FleetCombat: Destroyer bombard location 223,246.
FleetCombat: Destroyer Naval Guns 53550=75*.37*10.292200*600/16.
FleetCombat: Destroyer Naval Guns 53550=75*.37*10.292200*600/16.
FleetCombat: 535 shots.
****************
I don't see the bolded multiplier in your log or in the manual.

In the ship that doesn't work, here is the log:
**************
FleetCombat: 1124 bombard location 223,246.
FleetCombat: BK1124 Naval Guns 0=42*.33*10.292200*0/11.
FleetCombat: BK1124 Naval Guns 0=42*.33*10.292200*0/11.
FleetCombat: 0 shots.
**************
Note that the multiplier in these log entries are zero, and so the result is zero.

What is this multiplier?

Looks like it's the ship's anti-naval value x 10 - just guessing, though.

_____________________________

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Post #: 13
RE: Not getting naval "combat" - 8/21/2020 12:29:24 AM   
76mm


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quote:

Looks like it's the ship's anti-naval value x 10 - just guessing, though.

hmm, ok, where is one supposed to find information about these "anti-ship" factors? The manual mentions them a few times but does not say how they are determined. I don't see any way to set them in the eqp files or the game editor. They mentioned in the appendix in the manual regarding naval combat, but there is no indication of what these value are, or how they are set.

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Post #: 14
RE: Not getting naval "combat" - 8/21/2020 2:58:09 AM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12322
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From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

Looks like it's the ship's anti-naval value x 10 - just guessing, though.

hmm, ok, where is one supposed to find information about these "anti-ship" factors? The manual mentions them a few times but does not say how they are determined. I don't see any way to set them in the eqp files or the game editor. They mentioned in the appendix in the manual regarding naval combat, but there is no indication of what these value are, or how they are set.

For naval gunnery, it's the AP value.

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Post #: 15
RE: Not getting naval "combat" - 8/24/2020 2:06:51 PM   
76mm


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One of the other forum members was kind enough to let me know that naval gunnery has no effect if the range is less than 5; no mention of that detail in the manual for some reason. Makes it pretty much impossible to create smaller ship types, at least ships that can fight other ships. Frustrating.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 16
RE: Not getting naval "combat" - 8/24/2020 4:34:30 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

One of the other forum members was kind enough to let me know that naval gunnery has no effect if the range is less than 5; no mention of that detail in the manual for some reason. Makes it pretty much impossible to create smaller ship types, at least ships that can fight other ships. Frustrating.


I don't know if you mean less than 5 hexes or less than 5 km. Wrong in either case.

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Post #: 17
RE: Not getting naval "combat" - 8/24/2020 11:59:43 PM   
76mm


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Less than 5 km. When I changed a ship's range from 3km to 5 km, it went from getting 0 hits (within a 3 km range) to normal hits. You're saying that there is not a 5 km minimum range?

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Post #: 18
RE: Not getting naval "combat" - 8/25/2020 12:30:18 AM   
Curtis Lemay


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From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Less than 5 km. When I changed a ship's range from 3km to 5 km, it went from getting 0 hits (within a 3 km range) to normal hits. You're saying that there is not a 5 km minimum range?


My Savo Island 1942 scenario is 2.5 km/hex. Adjacent ships (2.5km range) definitely cause damage/losses. I tested it before the above post.

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Post #: 19
RE: Not getting naval "combat" - 8/25/2020 3:13:42 AM   
76mm


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My scenario is also 2.5 km. But I think we're talking about different things...you seem to be saying that ships that are adjacent can cause damage (@2.5 km). Yes, I've seen that too. But what I'm saying that if a ships range, as entered in the eqp file, is less than 5 km, its fire does not seem to have any effect at any range.

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Post #: 20
RE: Not getting naval "combat" - 8/25/2020 1:45:20 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

My scenario is also 2.5 km. But I think we're talking about different things...you seem to be saying that ships that are adjacent can cause damage (@2.5 km). Yes, I've seen that too. But what I'm saying that if a ships range, as entered in the eqp file, is less than 5 km, its fire does not seem to have any effect at any range.


OK, I misunderstood. That might be correct, since the smallest hex scale was 2.5km for so long.

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Post #: 21
RE: Not getting naval "combat" - 8/27/2020 7:45:25 PM   
76mm


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It would be very nice if this could be fixed--even if minimum hex size were 2.5 km, I don't see the reason to have a minimum range of 5 km. Now that the hex scale goes down to what, 250 meters, a 5 km minimum range doesn't work well at all.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 22
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