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Italy NM too low

 
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Italy NM too low - 8/12/2020 5:39:02 AM   
battlevonwar


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Because of factors in the game, i.e. Vastly Superior abilities of the Allies to land say 5 Infantry Corp(or mech tank Corps) around an Italian Objective that can potentially make her surrender in 1 turn I think her NM should be raised some to make this impossible. Plus several Paradrops could potentially be used to make some sort of gamey move. Altogether Italy is a boot with no boots for war. If she is played well enough perhaps tying her NM more into other factors like Casualties? Would make her more robust?

As the Allies are so heavily favored I feel you need to give somewhere and I think is one of the places and to shreds with History. Historically many things are just not doable.
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RE: Italy NM too low - 8/12/2020 7:34:36 AM   
Flaviusx


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It was low in real life, too.

Italy is fragile. If you want to keep Italy in the war, you are going to have to work for it and support them heavily. If you do so, it is more than possible to keep Italy in the war.

Every time I see Italy knocked out early by a coup de main it is invariably because the Axis player didn't make the necessary commitment to keep Italy in the war. By the end of 1941 that commitment goes up a lot. But too many players fail to make this shift.




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RE: Italy NM too low - 8/12/2020 11:51:09 AM   
MorningDew

 

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I am with Flaviusx on this. The Axis has a decision to make - be super aggressive or be more defensive in regards to Italy. I think it forces a good (realistic) strategic decision by the Axis.

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RE: Italy NM too low - 8/12/2020 12:59:28 PM   
battlevonwar


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Issue is you have a 1944 US/UK level of involvement in the Mediterranean in the Spring(first clear turn of '42) The US/UK can field 8 armor(seen it in two games), 15 Corp, 10-15 Air easily in Spain, North Africa. The Axis are I am feeling stuck with 2 options...Somehow get Spain to join, i.e. Sea Lion or outright invade Spain. The logistics of using the Eastern Mediterranean aren't appealing enough for the Allies. Second knock out the Russians before this happens so thoroughly there is no threat in the East at all and then turn West.

So this becomes the META strategy. Italy has to be protected and Spain is the only place with enough supply to do any good. The Axis aren't going to have an easy time taking the Soviets in proper hands. That is in fact nearly impossible.

I am thinking '43 is the defensive years not '42... If the Soviet cannot hold the line through '42 they have failed and the game should be over. Letting '42 for the preparation of the Axis to go on full defense and then Allies on Moderate Offense in the East and Full Offense in the West.

You could always do delayed Barbarossa... I suppose this is a 3rd Option, but I don't see that working much?

P.S. 8 Armor in the West, and likely 8 Armor(10 Mech) in the East = more offensive power than the Axis will have in 1942. Plus probably 3 Xs the air force split between two fronts. It's a bit OP!

< Message edited by battlevonwar -- 8/12/2020 1:02:50 PM >

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RE: Italy NM too low - 8/12/2020 2:01:17 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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1943 is the Axis defensive year. If you go on the defense in 1942 you screw yourself. It is the same in most WW2 grand strategy games.

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RE: Italy NM too low - 8/12/2020 2:01:43 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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You must balance how much to keep in Italy and how much on the Russian front. You need just enough.

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RE: Italy NM too low - 8/12/2020 2:10:25 PM   
MorningDew

 

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I am curious whether the new beta invasion changes will have an impact in the ability to knock Italy out without a real Allied coordinated effort. Have you seen the issue with the beta where the Italian player also defends the major ports and morale centers?

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RE: Italy NM too low - 8/12/2020 3:07:03 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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The changes narrowed the extremes and lowered the variance.

Where before your invasion fleet could get sunk but if it got ashore it was a powerhouse.
Now it won't get sunk nearly as easily but not be as powerful on shore.

I also found a bug when I did this that is was only sinking 1 transport not the X amount for the unit size.

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RE: Italy NM too low - 8/12/2020 5:42:15 PM   
Flaviusx


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I should post a pic of my current game with MM by what I mean about a strong German commitment to the Med going into the end of 1941. I've just about wound up Barbarossa, the British landed in North Africa and I am setting up fortress Libya and Tunisia. Italy proper is getting stuff as well.

I'm going to end up with 3 panzer/mech corps in this area, a couple of HQs, a fair bit of Germany infantry, plus 3 German tac bombers to help naval interdiction in the central med. I've recalled the Italians from the eastern front, too, they did their job there and got some nice experience for it. Although I did lose the mech corps I sent on a suicide mission, heh.

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RE: Italy NM too low - 8/15/2020 2:51:12 PM   
battlevonwar


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My question is what is in North Africa? I will tell you a few VPs, Production and primarily tons of Ports that will hassle the Axis. The Axis can have that location if their opponent wishes to give it for a low price but it's not really worth the Production or Fuel unless you can achieve one of the major objectives like Mid-East. In that case it is still expensive but could be worth it depending on price. I have done it and had it done to me but it didn't change the outcome vs my Allies. In the end the Axis end up with a ton of Ports of which they have to defend and they will never be able to defend them all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I should post a pic of my current game with MM by what I mean about a strong German commitment to the Med going into the end of 1941. I've just about wound up Barbarossa, the British landed in North Africa and I am setting up fortress Libya and Tunisia. Italy proper is getting stuff as well.

I'm going to end up with 3 panzer/mech corps in this area, a couple of HQs, a fair bit of Germany infantry, plus 3 German tac bombers to help naval interdiction in the central med. I've recalled the Italians from the eastern front, too, they did their job there and got some nice experience for it. Although I did lose the mech corps I sent on a suicide mission, heh.


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RE: Italy NM too low - 8/15/2020 3:27:55 PM   
Flaviusx


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I'm honestly quite happy with my present game with MM so far as the Med goes. I've got the British busy going nowhere in a hurry butting heads in Libya and Algeria and that is fine by me. Better here than in Spain or Italy. Plus his RN losses are starting to add up. I even sunk a carrier.

What's in NA? LOTS OF STUFF. But most of it is crap Italian infantry which I regard as disposable. So far as quality units go? 1 panzer, 2 mech, and a small german infantry corps. I may send more. I can afford to do so. But I'm content to feed in just enough to lock him down there and run out the clock.

Italy itself has maybe a half dozen German infantry corps equivalents sitting in harbors and VP locations. I also sent all 4 German tac bombers to the med. They are plinking away at the RN.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 8/15/2020 3:31:01 PM >


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RE: Italy NM too low - 8/15/2020 4:53:16 PM   
Cigar King

 

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The Med is a side show. Hopefully , it will tie up just enough Allied forces to keep them out of Europe early. Any substantial German commitment there, especially before 43, takes away from the real threat, Russia.

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RE: Italy NM too low - 8/15/2020 5:03:29 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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Well I am glad everyone is discussing different options and weighing them. Means I gave you all things to consider.

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RE: Italy NM too low - 8/16/2020 8:46:00 AM   
battlevonwar


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The game can be definitely played for other options. Baku/Turkey/MidEast Oil. Spain, Raider Atlantic Style. Slow Roll Soviets.

Allies are a little bit more narrow in their options. Though a strategic bombing campaign can be deadly. Heavy Russia Lendlease and a superpower in the East with a small jab from the West.

All out D-Day '42...

There are a few other ones that can be tried as the Allies but that's dangerous but fun...


I think the VP win will have to become more lucrative in the future. There aren't enough VPs in the USSR.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

Well I am glad everyone is discussing different options and weighing them. Means I gave you all things to consider.


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