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Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 8/11/2020 4:18:42 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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Attached is a screen shot of a coming feature of TOAW IV: Commanders.

Part of this feature will be a Commander List – similar to the Equipment List that is available to designers now. Recall that list has a couple of thousand equipment items on it. Similarly, we want to provide future designers with a few thousand Commanders as well (while they will be able to design their own Commanders as desired, a suite of stock Commanders will be a boon to their designs).

Within the Development Board a few of us have researched out a list of 3051 individual commanders. But that is just a list of their names. Their details and parameters now have to be devised. So far, only 92 of them have had that step completed. So, this is still a big project.

From the screenshot, you can see what is required for each. Each one must have a bitmap picture, a service arm, a rank, and a date of rank. Then there are six parameters to be estimated.

All I can promise anyone participating is your name in the credits as a part of the Commander Task Force. You will join myself, Bill Lott Jr., Jose Antonio (Josant), and Jo van der Pluym on that list. Send a message to my Inbox if you’re interested.





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
Post #: 1
RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 8/11/2020 4:34:46 PM   
76mm


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I might be willing to help with the WWII Soviet commanders, although I'd like to know how many of them there are first...

Also, I don't understand the proposed rating scheme; in the screenshot above, on a scale of 0-1000, Napoleon rates a 125...who on earth gets a 1000?

At which level are the commanders? Formations? What will we do about commanders of formations that are not listed in the DB?

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
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RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 8/11/2020 4:41:23 PM   
fulcrum28


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Curtis, very nice feature.
But please, could you please allow the same for equipment? I mean just adding a frame so the users could upload a photo/drawing for each equipment (or the main equipment of a unit/counter). See for example the post umber 6 from Larry in this AAR.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4858507

Users could customize the photos, I'm just asking about adding the functionality so we have the space (where Napoleon is) but for equipment instead of generals.
Thanks again for keeping the game alive.

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RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 8/11/2020 4:52:37 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I might be willing to help with the WWII Soviet commanders, although I'd like to know how many of them there are first...

There are 599 Russians of which 232 are from WWII. (Plus 58 Napoleonic, 14 Crimean, 95 WWI, 115 Civil War, 7 Afghanistan, and 61 Cold War - plus some misc.).

quote:

Also, I don't understand the proposed rating scheme; in the screenshot above, on a scale of 0-1000, Napoleon rates a 125...who on earth gets a 1000?


In my instructions, I suggested that no one should rate above Napoleon. But I also left plenty of range.

quote:

At which level are the commanders? Formations?


Yes. Commanders command formations.

quote:

What will we do about commanders of formations that are not listed in the DB?


As I said in the announcement, designers can make their own.



< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 8/11/2020 4:58:05 PM >


_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to 76mm)
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RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 8/11/2020 6:53:57 PM   
76mm


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I'll try it with 50 of the WWII Russians...if it goes well I can do more of the WWII Russians and maybe Civil War Russians. No interest in any of the other periods.

When you send the list of names, can you send a couple of WWII "reference generals" to use as benchmarks? In other words, "if Manstein is X, then so-and-so should be Y". Or send me the list of all the WWII Soviet generals and I can pick out 50.

What format do you want?

BTW, I have lists of 1000 German and Russian surnames in XML or Excel format that can be used for "anonymous" commanders.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
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RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 8/11/2020 7:33:45 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12258
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I'll try it with 50 of the WWII Russians...if it goes well I can do more of the WWII Russians and maybe Civil War Russians. No interest in any of the other periods.

When you send the list of names, can you send a couple of WWII "reference generals" to use as benchmarks? In other words, "if Manstein is X, then so-and-so should be Y". Or send me the list of all the WWII Soviet generals and I can pick out 50.

What format do you want?

BTW, I have lists of 1000 German and Russian surnames in XML or Excel format that can be used for "anonymous" commanders.

Easier to just post them here. The zip contains the commander spreadsheet - with the commander names. You'll see that a couple of hundred have been done. And the instruction documents. And a sample picture file.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to 76mm)
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RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 8/11/2020 8:15:23 PM   
76mm


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I took a look. Given that most of the (successful) commanders on the Eastern Front held several commands and various ranks during the course of the war, I think we should just provide one entry for each Soviet commander, a scenario designer can change his rank and command as needed. Probable the same for German commanders, at least on the Eastern Front. Otherwise you would literally need 6-7 slots for some of these guys.

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RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 8/11/2020 9:15:35 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12258
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I took a look. Given that most of the (successful) commanders on the Eastern Front held several commands and various ranks during the course of the war, I think we should just provide one entry for each Soviet commander, a scenario designer can change his rank and command as needed. Probable the same for German commanders, at least on the Eastern Front. Otherwise you would literally need 6-7 slots for some of these guys.

That will be the general rule, but there will be some rare exceptions.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 8
RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 8/11/2020 9:37:32 PM   
rhinobones

 

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Obviously quite a bit of effort has already been put into this project, so I hope it isn’t all written in stone. I have a few comments and suggestions which may help to improve the product.

1. The term “Tactical Skill” is used in the criteria. I can just imagine those hard core TOAW-heads having a fit using “tactical” in an “operational” game. Maybe just shorten it to “Skill”.

2. Offensive Tactical Skill and Defensive Tactical Skill. Don’t think two categories are needed. After all, either a commander is, or isn’t, good at positioning troops for maximum effect. Suggest you combine these categories into one category such as Battle Management. This would describe the commander’s ability to plan, execute and manage a battle in both defense and offense.

3. Organizational Skill. This is good. To me it describes the commander’s ability to combine weapon systems, formations and supporting elements into an effective fighting force. Eisenhower.

4. Initiative. This is good although I would rename it as Aggressiveness. This describes the commander’s drive to take the fight to the enemy. Patton vs Lucas Clark.

5. Charisma and Political Strength. These are qualities which come into play in Parliament when a command is lobbied. I doubt that the troops on the battlefield care much about how the command was granted and I would drop them from the list.

6. Leadership. I would replace Charisma and Political Strength with Leadership because this is what motivates troops to advance in the face of fire and engage the enemy. Grant and Lee.

7. Experience. Add this category to describe the commander’s relative service time in command of a body of troops. Most commanders would have a relatively high ranking, however, there is always a “first” command or maybe a political appointee with no practical experience leading a formation.

8. Standard Model. Good that you have a baseline for assignment of values, but I think Napoleon might be too remote in history and surrounded by too much mythology to make a good standard. Suggest you select someone more recent, someone people may find familiar. General Schwarzkopf might be a good choice. Give him straight 100’s across the board and have the rest compared up or down accordingly. Actually, I think a scale of 1 to 10 would be better as an evaluation tool than 1 to 100 and 1 to 1000.

9. Whatever you decide to do, I think you’ll need to provide a definition for each category. Definition should include a thorough description of what is being evaluated and a method for quantifying the evaluation.

Hope you find this constructive.

Regards, RhinoBones






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(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 9
RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 8/12/2020 12:46:09 AM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12258
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones

Obviously quite a bit of effort has already been put into this project, so I hope it isn’t all written in stone. I have a few comments and suggestions which may help to improve the product.

1. The term “Tactical Skill” is used in the criteria. I can just imagine those hard core TOAW-heads having a fit using “tactical” in an “operational” game. Maybe just shorten it to “Skill”.


The game is operational, but resolution of combat is tactical - based upon all sorts of tactical factors, like armor thickness, armor penetration, naval armor, shell weight, rate of fire, etc.

quote:

2. Offensive Tactical Skill and Defensive Tactical Skill. Don’t think two categories are needed. After all, either a commander is, or isn’t, good at positioning troops for maximum effect. Suggest you combine these categories into one category such as Battle Management. This would describe the commander’s ability to plan, execute and manage a battle in both defense and offense.


Some commanders are better at one or the other: Longstreet was a defensive specialist while Jackson was the opposite. If you think they should always be the same, then you can just make each the same.

quote:

3. Organizational Skill. This is good. To me it describes the commander’s ability to combine weapon systems, formations and supporting elements into an effective fighting force. Eisenhower.


It directly affects the commander's control of his units that are beyond his command radius. Plus, good organizers retain more of their tactical skill as they are promoted. Finally, poor organizers suffer supply difficulties.

quote:

4. Initiative. This is good although I would rename it as Aggressiveness. This describes the commander’s drive to take the fight to the enemy. Patton vs Lucas Clark.


It's the ability to act independent of a superior's command radius. Even if that action is to run for it.

quote:

5. Charisma and Political Strength. These are qualities which come into play in Parliament when a command is lobbied. I doubt that the troops on the battlefield care much about how the command was granted and I would drop them from the list.


Charisma is a commander's ability to prevent his units from routing or reorganizing - or to recover from those states.

Political Strength represents how difficult the commander is to remove from his command or promote/demote.

quote:

8. Standard Model. Good that you have a baseline for assignment of values, but I think Napoleon might be too remote in history and surrounded by too much mythology to make a good standard. Suggest you select someone more recent, someone people may find familiar. General Schwarzkopf might be a good choice. Give him straight 100’s across the board and have the rest compared up or down accordingly. Actually, I think a scale of 1 to 10 would be better as an evaluation tool than 1 to 100 and 1 to 1000.


There are plenty of examples. Nevertheless, the ratings aren't the important part. Getting the name right and the picture right are far more important.

quote:

9. Whatever you decide to do, I think you’ll need to provide a definition for each category. Definition should include a thorough description of what is being evaluated and a method for quantifying the evaluation.


I did - in the Word document I included in the attachment above.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to rhinobones)
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RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 8/12/2020 2:31:45 AM   
76mm


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Where are the command radii set?

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RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 8/12/2020 2:32:16 AM   
76mm


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If anyone else wants to work on WWII Soviet generals, please coordinate with me so that we're not doing the same guys...

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Post #: 12
RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 8/12/2020 3:11:50 AM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12258
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Where are the command radii set?

In the Formation Report. It's a parameter of the formation, not the commander.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 13
RE: Commander Task Force: Call for volunteers! - 8/13/2020 4:55:16 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12258
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
Just in case, Josant says he is doing these:

Austria-Hungary
Bosnia
Bulgaria
Croatia
Cuba
Egypt
India
Iran
Iraq
Israel
Jordan
Ottoman-Turkey
Pakistan
Spain
Syria
Yugoslavia

And Bill Lott has done the Russian Napoleonic War.

Finally, I'm doing the Americans.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
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