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"City" terrain type - 8/8/2020 2:18:22 AM   
Destragon

 

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I've always thought that it is kinda odd how cities in this game don't have their own terrain type, meaning a city built on grassy plains will have the terrain effects of grassy plains.
I think city tiles and probably also tiles with many or high level assets on them should get a "city" terrain type that has similar effects to the ruins terrain type, making it harder for tanks to attack units that are defending a city/assets.

If tiles with many assets on them would also get this city terrain type, it could also mean that one could kinda build anti-armor fortifications by placing assets around the map, which sounds like it might potentially be interesting.

I guess the counter argument is that the cities probably don't actually take that much space of a hex, considering how many m² a hex tile actually is, but eh, I dunno, I think a city terrain type would be cool anyway.
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RE: "City" terrain type - 8/8/2020 5:03:33 PM   
demiare

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Destragon

I've always thought that it is kinda odd how cities in this game don't have their own terrain type, meaning a city built on grassy plains will have the terrain effects of grassy plains.


How often you see at least 1M pop in zone? Do you seriously expect 200-300k peoples scavenging ancient ruins to build tons of skyscrapers?

Each hex is 200x200 km. You need HUGE mega-city to affect landscape of whole hex. IMHO it's far beyond your capabilities.

And if you really want to defend you city - not count on a single hex, entrench every hex around it.

(in reply to Destragon)
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RE: "City" terrain type - 8/8/2020 6:32:25 PM   
Malevolence


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Per the game's combat engine, the terrain modifier is limited to the attacker's hex and defender's hex terrain types. It is not based on models. The resolution is not that fine-grained.

In other words, tank models and infantry models are treated the same.

Adding a City terrain would have no effect on models, but would impact all units.

Consider the level of war being simulated. It's an operational-level game, on a strategic-level map, using tactical-level units. The result creates a lot of gooey confusion.


< Message edited by Malevolence -- 8/8/2020 6:37:05 PM >


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RE: "City" terrain type - 8/8/2020 6:34:48 PM   
demiare

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence
Tank models and infantry models are treated the same.


You're absolutely wrong here. I'm currently fighting on desert planet and like game state - tanks (rovers included) HAVE penalties on desert hexs, while my infantry & guns are not.

Still sometimes combat confirmation window are behave strangely (=buggy). I'd seen my units "lacking" icon for my regime combat bonus a few times in combat window - but after I'd send them into battle I saw them having it in combat detail. Possibly you run into similar issue - combat window show no penalty to you, but it was applied like it should in combat log.

P.S. I don't post in into technical issues as I still unable to reproduce it stably after reloading . And posting screenshots with "lacking" bonuses is not helpful to determine source of bug.

< Message edited by demiare -- 8/8/2020 6:38:51 PM >

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RE: "City" terrain type - 8/8/2020 6:37:53 PM   
Malevolence


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quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence
Tank models and infantry models are treated the same.


You're absolutely wrong here. I'm currently fighting on desert planet and like game state - tanks (rovers included) HAVE penalties on desert hexs, while my infantry & guns are not.

Still sometimes combat confirmation window are behave strangely (=buggy). I'd seen my units "lacking" icon for my regime combat bonus a few times in combat window - but after I'd send them into battle I saw them having it in combat detail. Possibly you run into similar issue - combat window show no penalty to you, but it was applied like it should in combat log.


No, not wrong.

Consider the level of war being simulated. It's an operational-level game, on a strategic-level map, using tactical-level units. The result creates a lot of gooey confusion.

Note that I wrote the combat engine.


< Message edited by Malevolence -- 8/8/2020 6:39:30 PM >


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RE: "City" terrain type - 8/8/2020 6:44:10 PM   
demiare

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence
Consider the level of war being simulated. It's an operational-level game, on a strategic-level map, using tactical-level units. The result creates a lot of gooey confusion.


In my mind I'm downscaling game a bit. For me all action is happening on single continent and not on whole planet surface. This making situation more or less sane (plus IMHO we still have some barely functional automatic factories even if they aren't mentioned as hex perks).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence
Note that I wrote the combat engine.


Then I don't understand what you're trying to say. "Tank" units are receiving a penalty for attacking Ruins hex, while "Infantry" are not. How it's working behind the scene isn't really relevant for player

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RE: "City" terrain type - 8/8/2020 7:40:06 PM   
Destragon

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare

How often you see at least 1M pop in zone? Do you seriously expect 200-300k peoples scavenging ancient ruins to build tons of skyscrapers?

Each hex is 200x200 km. You need HUGE mega-city to affect landscape of whole hex. IMHO it's far beyond your capabilities.

See the last line of the OP.

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RE: "City" terrain type - 8/8/2020 8:05:05 PM   
demiare

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Destragon
See the last line of the OP.


I don't like that idea because it will buff player, not AI. AI is unable to encircle his city properly and prone to be taunted out - so landscape bonus will not help it, while player can (and WILL) abuse it against AI.

P.S. I'm also against making cities more durable. Saw Libyan explosion? A mere ~1.0-1.5 kT in random place, not properly targeting infrastructure like it will be in case of war - and city is on verge of catastrophe. So with skillful usage of modern artillery - modern (!) city, city with millions of people could be obliterated easily. And in SE we often have inhospitable atmosphere/biosphere making any damage to infrastructure absolutely lethal as you can't survive outside.
P.P.S. While I was writing this post my model design council designed a Dragon (see reference? :P) - med tank with 124 structural. Thank you, dear sir Destragon

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RE: "City" terrain type - 8/8/2020 8:10:42 PM   
Malevolence


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quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare

Then I don't understand what you're trying to say. "Tank" units are receiving a penalty for attacking Ruins hex, while "Infantry" are not. How it's working behind the scene isn't really relevant for player


Only units are receiving a modifier for attacking a ruins hex, etc. That's why I underlined the word models above in the thread. That's also why those details seem to only show sometimes. No, I don't mean OOB either. As you know, the OOB is a template. It's the "unit" instanced object.

Sorry, but without a proper dev console, it's too onerous to setup a proper illustrative example.

I can't write a tldr here, the WitE 2 gods are already pinging me about unfinished tasks.


< Message edited by Malevolence -- 8/8/2020 8:15:06 PM >


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RE: "City" terrain type - 8/8/2020 8:14:13 PM   
demiare

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence
Only units are receiving a penalty for attacking a ruins hex, etc. That's why I underlined the word models above in the thread. That's also why those details seem to only show sometimes. No, I don't mean OOB either.


Oh, you're about that infantry mixed into Armored OOB will not get this penalty? Yes, but I though it was obvious thing.

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RE: "City" terrain type - 8/8/2020 8:29:48 PM   
Malevolence


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quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare

Yes, but I though it was obvious thing.


It's not obvious--because of the confusion I outlined above regarding the mixed levels of war.

In the case of terrain, and attack, player needs to look at the landscape modifier (if the unit is impacted by it).

It's typical for players to refer to "tanks" and "tanks fight bad in cities."

Any mobile units, unsupported by infantry, are vulnerable. Infantry must clear, sometimes slowly, block by block.

In any event, in game terms, "tanks" (e.g. "armor") are represented by different objects in the combat engine.




What many game developers miss (or misunderstand), is that armor doesn't get a negative modifier in a city.

Instead, armor loses the positive modifier it gets when operating in open terrain.

A subtle, but important difference, because it's battle tempo that is most impacted.

Either way, with or without armor, infantry must contain and then clear urban objectives.

It's slow and hazardous work for all types of men and equipment.


Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Malevolence -- 8/8/2020 10:16:57 PM >


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*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

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Post #: 11
RE: "City" terrain type - 8/8/2020 8:46:51 PM   
demiare

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence
Any mobile units, unsupported by infantry, are vulnerable. Infantry must clear, sometimes slowly, block by block.

But in game terms, "tanks" (e.g. "armor") are represented by different objects in the combat engine.


Game have very clear hint : tracker of how many units of infantry/tank/guns/etc type are joining into combat. So for me only surprise was that buggies are count as "tanks" (or better - armor, you right here) too, after it everything else was clear.

(in reply to Malevolence)
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RE: "City" terrain type - 8/10/2020 10:15:56 PM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Destragon

I've always thought that it is kinda odd how cities in this game don't have their own terrain type, meaning a city built on grassy plains will have the terrain effects of grassy plains.
I think city tiles and probably also tiles with many or high level assets on them should get a "city" terrain type that has similar effects to the ruins terrain type, making it harder for tanks to attack units that are defending a city/assets.

If tiles with many assets on them would also get this city terrain type, it could also mean that one could kinda build anti-armor fortifications by placing assets around the map, which sounds like it might potentially be interesting.

I guess the counter argument is that the cities probably don't actually take that much space of a hex, considering how many m² a hex tile actually is, but eh, I dunno, I think a city terrain type would be cool anyway.

Open Air Farms do change the Terrain. "Agricultural Terrain" has 125/50 for Infantry, 25/0 for Walkers. With a -25/-10% penalty for non-Walker Vehicles.

But overall I think the game could use some way to fortify the borders. Even better if they came with some build-in defenders:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4843059





(in reply to Destragon)
Post #: 13
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