RE: Subs on steroids or bug?

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RE: Subs on steroids or bug? - 8/8/2020 3:30:07 PM

sillyflower

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From the losses I was getting, all 3 subs attack every time.

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RE: Subs on steroids or bug? - 8/8/2020 4:09:14 PM

AlvaroSousa

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I looked at the data. There is nothing wrong with the action. I PMed you details.

For the public. If you find yourself being slaughtered in the Battle of the Atlantic in 1942 you did something wrong in 1939-1940 as the Allies simply put.

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Post #: 32

RE: Subs on steroids or bug? - 8/8/2020 8:34:19 PM

battlevonwar

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Never seen this, this is interesting. I thought that a pack in 1 hex could only have 1 shot at a convoy. I didn't know they could do multiple attacks in 1 turn. or raid other nation's convoys in say the North Atlantic pipeline to Liverpool?

Need to perhaps modify that in the manual a tiny bit so people understand what can happen. I thought say for instance Russian Convoys only ran in the Artic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

I looked at the data. There is nothing wrong with the action. I PMed you details.

For the public. If you find yourself being slaughtered in the Battle of the Atlantic in 1942 you did something wrong in 1939-1940 as the Allies simply put.

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Post #: 33

RE: Subs on steroids or bug? - 8/8/2020 10:28:12 PM

sillyflower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

I looked at the data. There is nothing wrong with the action. I PMed you details.

For the public. If you find yourself being slaughtered in the Battle of the Atlantic in 1942 you did something wrong in 1939-1940 as the Allies simply put.

I accept the game is WAD, though the multiple attacks were not something that had been noticed by me or my opponent before. I also appreciate the time that you have spent on this issue.

As to whether my strategy in this game is good enough, time will tell

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Post #: 34

RE: Subs on steroids or bug? - 8/9/2020 12:44:22 AM

AlvaroSousa

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Russian convoys from the UK yes. Russian convoys from the USA no. They run through the Atlantic.

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Post #: 35

RE: Subs on steroids or bug? - 8/9/2020 1:33:43 AM

battlevonwar

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Wow, I suppose my opponent may lack USA ASW or UK ASW? I can assume nothing else. I know vs you I was being ravaged and I started pumping out Convoys and hyper-teching ASW and eventually the bleed off stopped. In this game I nailed nearly 200 convoy/escort vessels with 4 Subs. (I may have lost 300-400-500plus convoys in our game? but my head is fuzzy about the figures, it was a very long game)

I did get lucky with Sub Tech. I'm sure that doesn't happen every game.

In our game what stopped you was the Russians.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

Russian convoys from the UK yes. Russian convoys from the USA no. They run through the Atlantic.

< Message edited by battlevonwar -- 8/9/2020 1:41:29 AM >

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Post #: 36

RE: Subs on steroids or bug? - 9/3/2020 2:42:07 PM

Omnius

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I'm still trying to figure out how to make German subs more effective, been trying placing them as separate groups in separate hexes, haven't tried the wolfpack approach yet. I put them in separate hexes to avoid carrier air getting too lucky. I like to spread my subs out to make it more difficult for British carriers to too easily sink them. So far it really looks like German subs are crap early on and the British carriers too effective at finding and sinking them in early 1941. I have yet to see how Germany puts Britain in a bind of having to replace merchant shipping as often as it should be per historical standards. A rather poor modeling of the early German Uboat war.

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RE: Subs on steroids or bug? - 9/3/2020 4:00:26 PM

AlvaroSousa

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Put them in "very low recon" lane areas.

This is why ports are important.

Put them in groups of 2 or 3.

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Post #: 38

RE: Subs on steroids or bug? - 9/3/2020 6:15:14 PM

kennonlightfoot

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You must have a game with much better CV's than I have played. I have yet to have a CV strike against subs occur on open sea. Best I do is some "+1" results which don't seem to do anything. Only thing I have found that counters U-boats are Escorts set to max advancement. Then its an attrition battle between losing Merchants and Escorts versus German's keeping their U-Boats repaired and at sea (oilers). So far German surface raiders are far more deadly than U-boats.

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Post #: 39

RE: Subs on steroids or bug? - 9/4/2020 2:30:40 PM

Omnius

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@kennonlightfoot,
Must not be doing much CV air versus subs if you haven't seen hit results. I'm in 1941 and the British CV's can really wreck havoc on Axis subs. German Attack subs at '42 level. I think the Naval Air is at '41 level for British. In 1939 British CV air hardly finds German subs but by 1940 that starts to change and by 1941 they score hits rather consistently.

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RE: Subs on steroids or bug? - 9/4/2020 7:14:16 PM

kennonlightfoot

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Omnius

@kennonlightfoot,
Must not be doing much CV air versus subs if you haven't seen hit results. I'm in 1941 and the British CV's can really wreck havoc on Axis subs. German Attack subs at '42 level. I think the Naval Air is at '41 level for British. In 1939 British CV air hardly finds German subs but by 1940 that starts to change and by 1941 they score hits rather consistently.

I don't believe Naval Air advancement has any effect on ability of CV's air. It applies only to bomber type air.

I just haven't seen it be successful. I have tested it using singlely and in stacks of 3 CV's. Best I get is an occasional "+1". I've run Britain out of oil trying to keep them a sea so I could attack every turn. I have sent all of the UK's CV after subs with the same result. It is hard to make a good test in regular games since CV's have other jobs. Some time I will try a hot seat game with nothing but sub vs CV and see how it works out.

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Post #: 41

RE: Subs on steroids or bug? - 9/4/2020 9:03:24 PM

Omnius

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@kennonlightfoot,
I'm still trying to figure out which research projects affect which units, guess it's carrier operations that improves carrier air performance. So for escort fighter tech you need to build escort air superiority groups to take advantage of that research expenditure?

I did research carrier ops so my British carriers are probably up to at least 1940 or even '41 in my game in June '41. I was using single carriers with a dd group and was achieving some really awesome results. Wasn't using ground air like close support air or strategic. I figure that using smaller sub groups should make it a bit more difficult to find them, hence the splitting up of subs into single groups. Plus I can string subs out more along trade routes and make it that much more difficult for carrier air to attack. Doing the wolfpack routine allows the British to only have to attack one hex with all of it's carriers in the area which I assume would mean more positive search results and more hits. When you have multiple groups of subs or carriers in a fleet then I assume that we see multiple hit results from the different groups of subs or carrier air.

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Post #: 42

RE: Subs on steroids or bug? - 9/5/2020 12:53:54 AM

magic87966

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These are the only research areas that improve the attackers ability to destroy subs:

Detection & Electronics (a/c only)
Carrier Ops (a/c only)
Warships and Large Warships (Naval surface units only)
Convoy Escort (escort only)

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RE: Subs on steroids or bug? - 9/5/2020 3:00:55 PM

kennonlightfoot

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quote:

ORIGINAL: magic87966

These are the only research areas that improve the attackers ability to destroy subs:

Detection & Electronics (a/c only)
Carrier Ops (a/c only)
Warships and Large Warships (Naval surface units only)
Convoy Escort (escort only)

Detection & Electronics only used by air units and require you to make a special advancement line for it. Since Subs can avoid the air right now by just staying away from them, it is pretty much useless unless the player is willing to make a massive investment in bombers just for sub chasing.

CV's so far have proven, at least for me, useless against subs. The chance of their getting a hit is to low to commit them to sub chasing when they are more effective else where.

Warships are useful if they can ever engage a surface raider but that is rare. They are useless against subs.
Convoy Escort is the most powerful counter to subs but useless against surface raiders.

So what it comes down to is the only effective counter to subs are building Escorts and investing max into Escort Advancement.

There doesn't seem to be a counter to Surface Raiders. I don't know what the game uses to calculate the odds of attacking a surface raider but based on my limited testing it doesn't seem to matter how many ships or air you use or what their levels are. When the ships are in fleet mode though these things become deadly.

For surface fleets though it is the Naval Air advancement which enhances air against ships. It is quite effective. I usually switch the Italian bombers to that advancement to help counter the UK surface advantage in the Mediterranean.

I don't know if anyone has tried to dedicate Strategic Bombers to the Navy Air role to stop Surface Raiders. That is a rather expensive method. To put them in Detection advancement would also be a very expensive response to subs. But unless you use strategic bombers the air just doesn't have enough reach to bother the German subs or raiders.

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RE: Subs on steroids or bug? - 9/5/2020 3:01:31 PM

Nirosi

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I believe that Convoy escort also affect Carriers if one builds the other type of Carrier.

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RE: Subs on steroids or bug? - 9/5/2020 5:53:26 PM

magic87966

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nirosi

I believe that Convoy escort also affect Carriers if one builds the other type of Carrier.

I think you�re right - I missed that one.

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RE: Subs on steroids or bug? - 9/5/2020 8:56:16 PM

AlvaroSousa

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games will be compatible.

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Post #: 47

RE: Subs on steroids or bug? - 9/6/2020 7:34:23 PM

ncc1701e

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Does stacking CVs help to better destroy subs? I am under impression that the answer is yes.

And, just for my understanding, when you say subs, is it attack sub or long range sub?
I never buy long range sub.

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RE: Subs on steroids or bug? - 9/6/2020 8:23:36 PM

kennonlightfoot

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nirosi

I believe that Convoy escort also affect Carriers if one builds the other type of Carrier.

That would be expensive. It would have give a dramatic improvement in hits on subs. Also timing may be a problem. They like Strategic Bombers take so long to build the problem may have gone away by the time they arrive.

Right now the only result I seem to get with Ships is the proverbial snake eyes.
Missed again, missed again, missed again, .........

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RE: Subs on steroids or bug? - 9/6/2020 9:29:52 PM

ago1000

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Just curious, has anyone attacked subs in port?

I'm assuming the most effective counters for subs are CVs with Convoy Escort tech and Strat Bombers with Detection & Electronic. From the above readings, out in open sea they are difficult to hit until 1941-42. Just wondering if anyone in their games in 1939 used CVs or surface fleets or strat bombers to attack subs while they are in port?

I'm sure, your fleets will take hits but it may do some damage also. (CV,BB,CA,CA,DD - to spread out damage) Just wondering if anyone has tried that strategy?

The reason I ask is in a recent game against the AI, I turned in the UK tactical bombers in the first turn to purchase a strat bomber whose job was to harass the AI subs. When it arrived in Feb, I thought it was well worth it. CVs were using Convoy Escort tech. I noticed once a sub takes a hit, it seems to be easier to find afterwards.

In a HvH game, it would force the Axis to move some of their air to cover their ports. If you score enough hits, the Axis may have to rebase their subs further away.

Just a thought.

< Message edited by ago1000 -- 9/6/2020 9:36:00 PM >

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RE: Subs on steroids or bug? - 9/6/2020 10:06:10 PM

ncc1701e

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Yep, I was complaining here that there is no option to build some U-Bunkers to protect them.
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4845740

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RE: Subs on steroids or bug? - 9/7/2020 12:12:49 AM

Nirosi

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I did once with naval units,

One sub in Amsterdam (or was it Rotterdam?) with 4 French naval units (the one from Brest IIRC). Sub sunk with very little damage to the fleet.

I also did a few times With air units, and if they are not protected with a fighter, it is very effective. But early on, 5 AA units can be a relatively good defense enough however.

< Message edited by Nirosi -- 9/7/2020 12:14:47 AM >

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RE: Subs on steroids or bug? - 9/7/2020 12:43:35 AM

ago1000

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Thanks NCC1701E and Nirosi:

I don't usually play allies but from the discussions I've read, this might be the strategy I will use against the Axis sub threat in the early game. The Das Boat strategy

. lol.

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RE: Subs on steroids or bug? - 9/7/2020 2:36:21 PM

kennonlightfoot

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

Just curious, has anyone attacked subs in port?

I'm assuming the most effective counters for subs are CVs with Convoy Escort tech and Strat Bombers with Detection & Electronic. From the above readings, out in open sea they are difficult to hit until 1941-42. Just wondering if anyone in their games in 1939 used CVs or surface fleets or strat bombers to attack subs while they are in port?

I'm sure, your fleets will take hits but it may do some damage also. (CV,BB,CA,CA,DD - to spread out damage) Just wondering if anyone has tried that strategy?

The reason I ask is in a recent game against the AI, I turned in the UK tactical bombers in the first turn to purchase a strat bomber whose job was to harass the AI subs. When it arrived in Feb, I thought it was well worth it. CVs were using Convoy Escort tech. I noticed once a sub takes a hit, it seems to be easier to find afterwards.

In a HvH game, it would force the Axis to move some of their air to cover their ports. If you score enough hits, the Axis may have to rebase their subs further away.

Just a thought.

I have tested but not enough to be sure of the results. If the subs or for that matter ships are in Raider mode they are hard to get hits on. I don't remember if I got any hits on subs but I didn't make enough attempts to say what the odds are.

Bombers with Naval Air advance are deadly against ships in Fleet mode. They still have problems against Surface Raiders but they do get hits. I haven't tried Strategic Bombers with Detection advancement. I assume they would do better but I don't know if its significant. Since I don't know which parameters displayed reflect ability to "find" subs I can't judge this. But I suspect against the AI they would be hell on wheels since the AI does little to avoid air. Against a player you would need to build so many Strategic Bombers to cover the shipping lanes that you would lose the land war long before they did any damage to the Axis.

Once the Germans take France there are some ports out of range of UK air except maybe Strategic Bombers so they have no problem with home porting their subs and fleets on the Atlantic side. Also, they can use those ports for traps buy putting ships in them in Raider mode along with lots of AA guns and nearby fighters.

But most of this I haven't had time to repeatedly test to be sure of how odds are changing.

Maybe Alvaro will tell us how the odds for spotting are determined and what parameters affect it.

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RE: Subs on steroids or bug? - 9/7/2020 3:26:21 PM

ago1000

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@Kennonlightfoot
Thank you for your response. Last night I was doing some tests. I even tried your idea of approaching the ports in raider mode then switching to see what happens.
I've included the video here: I didn't post it earlier because youtube needs 24hrs to convert my vids to HD. By default it uploads in SD.(Bottom right corner-settings if its in SD will change it to HD)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urA-x9nlfvs

I still think as an allied player early on, I will try port attacks before Axis can counter with oilers. Hopefully if damaged subs are sent out, they will be easier to attack in open sea by my CVs.

Strat Bombers with Det & Elec seem to have a 1 in 8 chance of a hit in open sea, almost 1 in 3 while ships in port
CV with Convoy Escorts have close to the same ratio in open sea, but 1 in 4 while a ship is in port. This is with defending air support. I haven't tried AA guns as a counter.

There was a comment made in another post I'm testing at the moment with regard to Axis subs not effecting the flow rate of resources coming into the UK. At present, I have found that 1MM = 1 resource (approx) and if the UK fall below 140 MM (approx) there is an impact on the flow of resources coming into the UK. I remember when we had stacks of 9 subs early on, this created havoc on the UK because we were sinking MM by the droves. Furthermore, getting the value below 140 I've noticed might be difficult because every time Germany conquers a country, the UK get the MMs.

The reason I'm testing this is I've always wondered what is the optimum number of subs the Axis should build??? The balance between the Armor unit in USSR or sub in the Atlantic and is it possible to get the UK down below 140MMs???? Thus far, I'm at 4 to 6 that I try to maintain, until late 42 - early 43, then everything goes against USSR. Since I've been playing against the AI, I haven't really seen the impact.

As Axis, I'm wondering what others have experienced as the best balance for number of subs??(whether against the AI or HvH)??

Thanks everyone for your responses in advance.

< Message edited by ago1000 -- 9/7/2020 3:27:07 PM >

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RE: Subs on steroids or bug? - 9/7/2020 5:16:50 PM

Nirosi

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Hi,

In my games at least, against a German players, I start to sweat at 8-10 subs. 4 Would be manageable, 6 annoying depending on the skill and luck of the player. At 8-10, it does get serious. I've seen as low as 70 MM left for a few months in a row before it went back up! It does however require a lot of resources on the German side, but it could possibly paralyse the Allies for a couple of year. Of course, it does mean less German PPs available to use against the Soviets...

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RE: Subs on steroids or bug? - 9/7/2020 7:15:08 PM

kennonlightfoot

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If the Axis player lets you hitting their ships in port is definitely the way to go. They usually don't put them where you can easily get at them. Italy is a different situation. They can't hide as easily and still keep their fleets useable.

I am still not sure of effectiveness of CV's and Surface Fleets against subs in port that are still in Raider mode.
Your video went a little to fast for me to be sure how that was going.

But you do have to be careful hitting ports because afterward you are in Fleet mode and you are close to enemy air. They can sometimes mount a devastating response.

Best of all worlds for Allies is to use the French fleet.

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Post #: 57

RE: Subs on steroids or bug? - 9/7/2020 8:19:57 PM

ncc1701e

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kennonlightfoot

Best of all worlds for Allies is to use the French fleet.

Yes also a little gamey because you do not care about losses...

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