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Musings on the Victory Conditions

 
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Musings on the Victory Conditions - 8/6/2020 6:11:07 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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Let me start off by saying that I like the way Victory is measured in this game. In particular I like the way the Victory Conditions encourage the Axis Player to capture and hold as many VP Locations as possible. So long as I win the game (whether as Axis or Allies) I don't really care that Italy won a Major Victory while Germany only won a Minor Victory; but I can see why some players might like this (How does Canada win any sort of victory at all?).

However, I am curious if anyone has ever won a game on Victory Points as the Allies. From the AARs it would seem that the Axis at some point will build an insurmountable lead in Victory Points, so that the only way the Allies can win is by conquering Germany and Italy by August 45. It would seem to me that in any game where the Allies are ahead in Victory Points they are probably going to conquer the Axis before time runs out anyway.

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RE: Musings on the Victory Conditions - 8/6/2020 9:22:00 AM   
Flaviusx


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Pretty sure this is working as intended.

VPs give the Axis a reason to fight to the bitter end and not throw in the towel when they come up short of a knockout blow. Without this mechanic, games would end far sooner and miss out on the interesting defensive half of it for the Axis, and the offensive part for the Allies.

VPs necessarily aren't that important to the Allies because they are in the position of having to defend at the outset anyways and then defeat the Axis entirely if possible.

There are some problems in the execution but the mechanic is sound. For example, games where the Allies win early but fall short on VPs are a "loss" for the Allies. This is of course absurd but sensible players ignore it and know it is an actual win. At some point I hope this is adjusted. But the game succeeds in its main objective to keep the Axis fighting and it is very possible for them to run out the clock and win on points.



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RE: Musings on the Victory Conditions - 8/6/2020 10:41:39 AM   
sillyflower


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It makes more sense than axis win if they still have 1 VP hex at end of game.

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RE: Musings on the Victory Conditions - 8/6/2020 11:06:49 AM   
battlevonwar


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agreed!

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RE: Musings on the Victory Conditions - 8/6/2020 11:27:56 AM   
MorningDew

 

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Agree. I find it ironic that by VPs I lost because I took Germany too quickly. If I had waited until March, 1945 instead of December 1944 I would have been ahead in VPs. But per the manual, "An alliance automatically wins if it conquers all the major powers on the opposing side."

So I am surprised the end of game victory screen doesn't show the alliance win after all major powers are defeated.

Personally, I think Alliance Victory should be somewhat based on historical surrender dates. Even using VPs for victory incents delaying taking Berlin...not right. Had it been a tournament with VPs determining the winner, I would have sat around Berkin a few months.




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< Message edited by AndrewKurtz -- 8/6/2020 12:18:16 PM >


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RE: Musings on the Victory Conditions - 8/6/2020 12:37:38 PM   
sillyflower


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The fact is that you won. The victor writes the history books, so you can rewrite the points' score.

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RE: Musings on the Victory Conditions - 8/6/2020 2:08:54 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

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The problem with Victory results when Germany conquered early I believe is fixed in version 8 Beta 5 with:
"Fixed victory points adjusted for major powers still active for time remaining in game"

I believe, but haven't confirmed, the game victory is determined by ratio of VP points when game auto ends at Aug 45 without Germany being conquered. I am not sure it give a victory level though.

The manual says that the individual country victories are just for use if the game is being played with separate players for each country. Although, I don't think that can actually be done except in a hot seat game.

Would be nice if the game had a submit resignation option like some games where the player can offer victory to the other side and have them accept for a smoother ending (rather than message saying other side resigned). If the game had victory levels conceding could take the current state and subtract one to three levels depending on how long into the game.

Also, would be nice to have some short scenarios like start in June 1941 and end in Dec 41.

Lot of games probably end early because looking at playing out another 100 turns when you think you have already lost is a little much.

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RE: Musings on the Victory Conditions - 8/6/2020 2:51:23 PM   
malkarma

 

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In my opinion, a conquered major power should loose all of its stored VP. One example, in the AAR or Sveint vs Sillyflower , axis had areoun 1000 points lead.,tuhat means that even I Sillyflower would have conquered all Germany he would stilla have loosed the game, becuse you only habe 26 turns per year and the axis doesn´t have enough VP to overcome that deficit. That means that Axis would have won that game no matter what...as long as you forget the little detial of both major powers conquered.
I know that my example was a very spècific one, but helps me to prove that my point makes some kind of sense.

p.: Actually I just surrendered in a game because the allies were going to annihilate me before summer '43, but the game wouldn´t credited my opponent with the proper victory screen that he deserved.

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RE: Musings on the Victory Conditions - 8/6/2020 3:15:49 PM   
MorningDew

 

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Is Germany being conquered 4 months after the historic surrender a German loss, German minor victory or draw?

Do the points matter???

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RE: Musings on the Victory Conditions - 8/6/2020 5:30:46 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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I believe I made some changes in the beta to this so it is more clear. I am also working on adjusting the VPs correctly in case this happens where the game ends before the end date.

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RE: Musings on the Victory Conditions - 8/6/2020 5:48:27 PM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: malkarma

In my opinion, a conquered major power should loose all of its stored VP. One example, in the AAR or Sveint vs Sillyflower , axis had areoun 1000 points lead.,tuhat means that even I Sillyflower would have conquered all Germany he would stilla have loosed the game,


This is incorrect. The winner is the side that eliminates all the opposing major powers before the game ends. If, and only if, this does not happen, the winner is the one with the more points. The same as boxing, which perhaps the game resembles in other ways.....................


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RE: Musings on the Victory Conditions - 8/6/2020 5:50:32 PM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AndrewKurtz

Is Germany being conquered 4 months after the historic surrender a German loss, German minor victory or draw?

Do the points matter???


If Italy is still holding out at the end, then it's decided on points. If the axis have more, it's an axis win.

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RE: Musings on the Victory Conditions - 8/6/2020 8:05:53 PM   
malkarma

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower


quote:

ORIGINAL: malkarma

In my opinion, a conquered major power should loose all of its stored VP. One example, in the AAR or Sveint vs Sillyflower , axis had areoun 1000 points lead.,tuhat means that even I Sillyflower would have conquered all Germany he would stilla have loosed the game,


This is incorrect. The winner is the side that eliminates all the opposing major powers before the game ends. If, and only if, this does not happen, the winner is the one with the more points. The same as boxing, which perhaps the game resembles in other ways.....................



After reading your comment, I realized a copuple of things:
1) My post was written like total garbage.
2) I didn't explained myself properly. What I wanted to say is that when a Major Power is defeated, it should add 0 victory points to it's faction total. Your game example was because even if you win by knockout, in the victory screen your VP would haven been less that the defeated side ones, something that don't make any sense.


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RE: Musings on the Victory Conditions - 8/6/2020 9:22:47 PM   
sillyflower


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I suspect that sveint would have had double my VPs but I didn't care and don't think I even looked at the victory screen.

Resetting an axis major power's VPs to nil would almost always result in a win for the other side which rather makes the higher standard (both K.O'd) redundant. A plucky Italy has to be allowed its day of glory.................

< Message edited by sillyflower -- 8/6/2020 9:27:20 PM >


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Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

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RE: Musings on the Victory Conditions - 8/7/2020 9:53:06 AM   
malkarma

 

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Seems a valid point that i haven't thought about too much. A good defence (or attack) shoud have some kind of reward. Now I see the reasoning behind your argument.

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RE: Musings on the Victory Conditions - 8/7/2020 10:26:31 AM   
sillyflower


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I was a litigation lawyer for over 30 years. My arguments are always both rational and correct

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RE: Musings on the Victory Conditions - 8/7/2020 11:35:06 AM   
MorningDew

 

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I haven't yet seen an Individual Country victory that didn't seem right.

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RE: Musings on the Victory Conditions - 8/7/2020 1:53:49 PM   
malkarma

 

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Until you found a guys as stubborn as the Rorke's Drift defene of the effot of the BEF during 1914-1915...maybe you will win, or maybe not...but for sure you will have to put a fight


Ps. A bit off topic, and a month later, but I would like to acknowledge the efforts and sufferings of those that were involved int The Battle of the Somme. They were Lions leaded by Ducks. My uthermostly respect for them.

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RE: Musings on the Victory Conditions - 8/7/2020 3:09:03 PM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: malkarma


Ps. A bit off topic, and a month later, but I would like to acknowledge the efforts and sufferings of those that were involved int The Battle of the Somme. They were Lions leaded by Ducks. My uthermostly respect for them.


Agree with the respect but it is now generally accepted that the 3 battles/phases, of the Somme offensive in 1916 ended with the allies winning on points, not least because the Ducks as you call them learned well the lessons of the early battle, and adjusted accordingly in phases 2 and 3. Those lessons included better tactics and equipment improvements which subsequently directly led to the later victories.

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Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

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RE: Musings on the Victory Conditions - 8/7/2020 5:46:38 PM   
malkarma

 

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As you could guess, I hava a realy bad opinion about the high command of all countries involved in WWI.
Anyways, at least they learned some lessons...maybe one of the most important was the end of the recruitment system. Have regiments assembled with soldiers of the same county/region proved to be disastrous to the country...they fixed that.
Also the idea of the artillery barrage festival proved innfecient and was improved to a shorther but more virulent bombardment phase, that in the end helped to take advantage of the momentun earned by the barrage.

But this is really offtopic, and I dont want to hijack the thread.

ps: the "LIons leaded by Ducks" is a quote that I readed sometime ago, you should read what I think about the French High Command. Actually in my opinion, the real disasterof the BEF during 1914-1915 was the loss of all the subofficers and middle rank officers...the ones that actually vertebrate the cohesion and efficience of an army.

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