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High Tech Levels need a weapon rebalance

 
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High Tech Levels need a weapon rebalance - 8/4/2020 3:56:07 PM   
Saros

 

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Right now there are a few things which are quite out of balance in the top half of the tech tree.


1) Laser small arms. They are so much better than any other small arm option it renders all forms of gauss worthless. I get the cost is supposed to be using Rares and energy but rares are not rare and energy has no weight so it actually simplifies your logistics. Maybe make them cost machines?
Lasers rifles are imo a tech level too low and probably 1/3 too powerful. Gauss of all types also needs a firepower buff and likely a caliber increase.

2) Gas powered small arms are beyond worthless, they need to be at least as good as high speed MG/auto-rifles in firepower to be even worth considering.

3) Missiles and Rockets do too much damage to assets. The no.1 strategy right now is to get within 7 hexes of your opponents cities/logistical assets and just blow them up and the only counter seems to be shield generators which are wayyy down the tech tree.

4) Liquid armor is supposed to hard counter lasers but it's too far down the tech tree and too expensive to be worth using.

5) Walker based OOB needs to exist. While great they are hard to use as only independent units.

6) Anti-tank guns could use a laser version to keep them viable later in the game. Anti tank guns also need a towed gun unit or integration into some infantry OOB's.

7) Adding a tech level 8/9 start to game options to allow people to test out high tech would be great.

If you want a game to poke around in and see these inbalances in play and the convergence in unit designs between players it causes take a look at this late game war I have going on with Dturtle. It also shows the rocket/missile issue as he was handily winning until I pulled out some missile units and just blew his capital to ruins in a single turn.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qh705abgwejzwpq/GoonMP_t65_Saros.se1?dl=0

< Message edited by Saros -- 8/4/2020 4:24:07 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: High Tech Levels need a weapon rebalance - 8/4/2020 4:14:07 PM   
Bremen

 

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Definitely a hard agree on 1) and 2). Personally my suggestion would be to remove gas powered guns (which I don't think anyone uses) and move gauss down to their spot. Possibly swap charged gauss and lasers as well, thus making infantry weapons like so:

Tier 1: Automatic Rifle
Tier 2: High Speed Machinegun
Tier 3: Gauss
Tier 4: Charged Gauss (and lasers for tanks)
Tier 5: Laser Rifles
Tier 6: Plasma Rifles

There's not much point in having gauss and laser be at the same tech tier. Lasers costing machines is also a good one, though maybe either reduce the firepower or add a machines cost, not both, especially if they get moved down the tech tree. I also think it might be interesting (if the engine allows it) for charged gauss to consume both ammo and energy, making them a midpoint transition between projectile and energy guns.

3) I can kind of see the balancing factor there, especially in single player, since if you're planning on taking the city a high collateral damage is a negative, and thus a reason not to flatten defenders with artillery. But in multiplayer total/strategic war tactics are much more effective. I also wonder if 7 hexes isn't just too long a range for missiles.

5) Honestly I think the OOB system needs a revamp. I guess my preference would be some way to customize the OOB, either flat out or maybe an iterative system like model design. For example, if there was a "pure" OOB for each unit and then you could "improve" an infantry OOB to select a new unit, like RPGs or artillery, to create a hybrid OOB with some of both, with each improvement costing more BP.

< Message edited by Bremen -- 8/4/2020 4:29:53 PM >

(in reply to Saros)
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RE: High Tech Levels need a weapon rebalance - 8/4/2020 4:24:21 PM   
Atomikkrab

 

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Joined: 8/4/2020
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I wouldn't get rid of gas powered but I would make it the same tier as automatic rifles and possibly lower it to 1metal 1ip. an efficient alternative early in the game. Having it the same tier as gauss rifles is... foolish?

I agree that either lasers need a debuff or gauss rifles need to be boosted in power

Most of these points I agree on but in particular


PLEASE PLEASE GRANT US A WALKER OOB.

(in reply to Bremen)
Post #: 3
RE: High Tech Levels need a weapon rebalance - 8/4/2020 4:25:03 PM   
DTurtle

 

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Joined: 4/26/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Saros

Right now there are a few things which are quite out of balance in the top half of the tech tree.

1) Laser small arms. They are so much better than any other small arm option it renders all forms of gauss worthless. I get the cost is supposed to be using Rares and energy but rares are not rare and energy has no weight so it actually simplifies your logistics. Maybe make them cost machines?
Lasers rifles are imo a tech level too low and probably 1/3 too powerful. Gauss of all types also needs a firepower buff and likely a caliber increase.

Yes, laser rifles are way too good. They have three times the fire power of the automatic rifles AND also a 50% higher caliber. They can rip apart tanks quite well. The energy cost of using them is usually no too much of a problem, as infinite energy is available by spamming out lvl 1 solar plants. Since they are in the same tech level as gauss rifles (which only have 25% more firepower than automatic rifles, despite being 3 tech levels higher), there is basically never a reason to get them.

There is simply way too large a hole between automatic rifles and then laser/gauss rifles. I would suggest moving Gauss rifles up a tier to Advanced Engineering and also improving their fire power to 150 or so. At the same time the fire power of laser rifles should be lowered to 200 or so. They will still be way better at dealing with everything because of the caliber differences. Combat armor counts as 40mm, which means gauss rifles only have 50% fire power against other infantry, while laser rifles will have 75% fire power. Maybe laser rifles should cost machines.

Charged Gauss Rifles should also be bumped up in fire power and maybe caliber. Maybe have them use ammo and energy.

quote:


2) Gas powered small arms are beyond worthless, they need to be at least as good as high speed MG/carbines in firepower to be even worth considering.

Yeah, I have never even considered getting or using gas powered small arms.

quote:


3) Missiles and Rockets do too much damage to assets. The no.1 strategy right now is to get within 7 hexes of your opponents cities/logistical assets and just blow them up and the only counter seems to be shield generators which are wayyy down the tech tree.

Being on the receiving end of this in two games, I can only support this. A single battalion of missiles will reduce a level 4 city to uselessness within two turns and to rubble within four. In general city assets take way too much damage too quickly from artillery, rockets and missiles. This problem obviously is worst against missiles because of their huge range.
quote:


4) Liquid armor is supposed to hard counter lasers but it's too far down the tech tree and too expensive to be worth using.

In addition, liquid armor uses Hi-Tec, which are very hard to amass in quantity in any normal time frame. Moving it up a tier and costing machines instead would make this a way more viable technology.

quote:


5) Walker based OOB needs to exist. While great they are hard to use as only independent units.

I don't want to go into the topics of OOB too much (despite having made the effort to at least catalog all of them in a War Room post), but in short: Missing walker based OOBs go hand in hand with the general problem of too many different OOBs being acquired/discovered by luck. At least a visible, tiered, OOB tree is the minimum required, better would be something similar to the way unit model development works (specifically the entire tech development, model type discovery, model design interaction).

(in reply to Atomikkrab)
Post #: 4
RE: High Tech Levels need a weapon rebalance - 8/4/2020 4:38:06 PM   
demiare

 

Posts: 470
Joined: 6/20/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DTurtle
In general city assets take way too much damage too quickly from artillery, rockets and missiles.


This is actually very realistic. Blow up power plant & major sub-stations and watch how modern city dies...

Absolutely will agree that lasers need to be nerfed.

I would ALSO suggest to swap techs a bit:
1) Move "Power plant" in basic techs. While they have huge energy output - in early game it's impossible to feed tier2+ without extreme luck AND rich oil planet.
2) Move "RPG" on place of current "Power plant". It's ridiculously stupid to have 2 rpg tech in same tech field. Plus it will be a nice option to reduce efficiency of light tanks in early game - something we really, really need.

(in reply to DTurtle)
Post #: 5
RE: High Tech Levels need a weapon rebalance - 8/6/2020 2:25:19 AM   
lloydster4

 

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This question of Strategic Destruction with missiles is an interesting one. I feel strongly that it should be a viable strategy, but it needs some counter-play to not be game-breaking.

One idea that hasn't been mentioned: Cities could make a defensive roll against incoming missiles. Missiles would need to pass a hit-roll first before dealing damage.


(in reply to demiare)
Post #: 6
RE: High Tech Levels need a weapon rebalance - 8/6/2020 3:44:30 AM   
ramnblam

 

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From: Australia
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Maybe have buildings you can construct like anti-missile batteries and other countermeasures that are useful when intercepting threats at range but are quickly overwhelmed if the attacking forces are closer (i.e basically surrounding the city in a siege)

(in reply to lloydster4)
Post #: 7
RE: High Tech Levels need a weapon rebalance - 8/6/2020 1:10:13 PM   
Saros

 

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Joined: 12/18/2010
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Perhaps a civil defense building that hardens the city against attack and reduces the impact of Danger.

(in reply to ramnblam)
Post #: 8
RE: High Tech Levels need a weapon rebalance - 8/6/2020 1:27:46 PM   
Pratapon51

 

Posts: 85
Joined: 6/28/2020
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Saros

Perhaps a civil defense building that hardens the city against attack and reduces the impact of Danger.


A good option that also makes sense in lore is Zone Shield Generator assets that provide protection points only to assets and population in the same tile.

(in reply to Saros)
Post #: 9
RE: High Tech Levels need a weapon rebalance - 8/6/2020 6:25:12 PM   
jimwinsor


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Joined: 11/21/2005
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Off topic, but has anyone pursued a strategy of victory using nuclear ICBMs to reduce enemy population VP totals? I'm considering such now in my massive sized planet playthrough, where huge conventional forces everywhere are only offering stalemate ...

_____________________________

Streaming as "Grognerd" at https://www.twitch.tv/grognerd

(in reply to Pratapon51)
Post #: 10
RE: High Tech Levels need a weapon rebalance - 8/6/2020 7:20:33 PM   
demiare

 

Posts: 470
Joined: 6/20/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor

Off topic, but has anyone pursued a strategy of victory using nuclear ICBMs to reduce enemy population VP totals? I'm considering such now in my massive sized planet playthrough, where huge conventional forces everywhere are only offering stalemate ...


In single-player it's a ultimate 100% win strategy as AI is unable to create new zones so can't survive it. In multi-player it will be a mortal race :)

(in reply to jimwinsor)
Post #: 11
RE: High Tech Levels need a weapon rebalance - 8/6/2020 7:36:07 PM   
Pratapon51

 

Posts: 85
Joined: 6/28/2020
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare

quote:

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor

Off topic, but has anyone pursued a strategy of victory using nuclear ICBMs to reduce enemy population VP totals? I'm considering such now in my massive sized planet playthrough, where huge conventional forces everywhere are only offering stalemate ...


In single-player it's a ultimate 100% win strategy as AI is unable to create new zones so can't survive it. In multi-player it will be a mortal race :)


Yes, the AI is unable to cope with massive nuclear warfare. If you hit all their cities they are effectively zombie regimes who will persist but be unable to ever rebuild because of the crippling radiation penalties.

Of course, their cities will also be totally useless to you as even radiation cleaning workers will die really fast with rads over 3k in every tile.

Some of the zone worker 'population' is considered to be housed in other assets instead of the main city hex so you may have to destroy those to reduce the population to 0 and completely destroy the zone. Their units will remain but are easily overwhelmed without supply and will eventually starve.

As for multiplayer, you may want to scatter your ICBM launchers all over your network. There are no reinforced silos, stealth bombers, or submarines in the game, only wide area shields that may not be enough.

(in reply to demiare)
Post #: 12
RE: High Tech Levels need a weapon rebalance - 8/11/2020 5:34:59 PM   
Saros

 

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To be fair players can't really cope with icbm's mashing all their industry into radioactive scrap either. Speaking of has anyone actually tested shields v icbm?

(in reply to Pratapon51)
Post #: 13
RE: High Tech Levels need a weapon rebalance - 9/8/2020 2:48:25 AM   
tikhun

 

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Joined: 8/14/2020
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From my multiplayer experience, I agree with pretty much all the points.

Most of all, conventional missiles and rockets are just insanely good versus assets. There is no option in the game for any countermeasures rather than not allowing the enemy to get within 7 hexes range from large cities and important assets. I agree that both anti-missile buildings or some assets increasing the durability of all assets are reasonable solutions. It is OK if they are a bit expensive or workers hungry; the players need options for counter-play.

OOB is a big topic, deserving separate discussion indeed. Given how strong OHQ Commanders now, making unattached battalions is a waste of resources most of the time, and the existing OOBs are not flexible enough.

(in reply to Saros)
Post #: 14
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