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RE: The question to ask about The Italians

 
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RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/27/2020 3:40:09 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12529
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From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I would say that the obvious point of Vichy was to create an large enclave within France that didn't have Germans occupying it. Spain would have the same desire.

warspite1

Erm..... Curtis Lemay that answer is absolutely staggering . You appear to have not the first clue about Vichy France.... wow. How can you be comfortable suggesting things you clearly just don't even bother to try and understand?


What have I got wrong? The whole point of Vichy obviously was to keep the Germans out of much of France. What other benefit would there have been?

quote:

warspite1

Erm......

a) why would the British be occupying any part of French North Africa? That is a monumentally ridiculous question to ask - goodness alone knows what point you were trying to make or why you even thought that question in the slightest bit relevant to the situation under discussion....


Exactly, and just as ridiculous for the British to occupy the Canaries when they could have achieved the same on the mainland.

quote:

b) The Spanish wouldn't be allowing the British to occupy the Canaries would they?????? The Spanish have just been back-stabbed by their 'friends'. As is very common, we now have a situation where Spain's enemy's (Germany) enemy (Britain) has just become their 'friend'. Did the Greeks deny the British the use of Crete as part of their assisting Greece???? Once again you seem to have got confused over something really very simple.


Crete was very close to the battle area. The Canaries were not.

quote:

c) The British agree to do all they can to assist the Spanish, but can't do anything if Gibraltar is negated by bombing and ultimately captured. So they ask the Spanish to allow the navy the use of the Canaries as a Gibraltar replacement. In return the British give the Spanish as much assistance as possible (plus certain promises re the future). From this base, the Royal Navy can provide naval gunfire support, they can provide air support from Spanish Morocco.


By the time Gibraltar is under fire, Vichy Spain will be established.

quote:

The British will also be assisting getting troops from Spanish Morocco and the islands to the mainland.


Why would the Spanish need any more help with that than the French did from FNA? Why would they want the British to interfere with it?

quote:

You think the British Government wouldn't work with a reprehensible regime in order to fight Germany? The British were giving hefty bribes to Spanish generals and politicians to keep them onside. They would do what it took.

And let's face it, Britain (and the USA) allied with the USSR - I don't think dealing with Spain is going to trouble Churchill. Hell, the Greek Government the British tried to assist was hardly a model of democracy was it?


?? What was that about?

quote:

But of course its on the map. The Canaries were important to both Britain and Germany. This game you've based an entire scenario on and have said how realistic it is MUST have the Canaries in it.....


The game map. Why would it need the Canaries?

_____________________________

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(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 901
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/27/2020 3:52:33 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12529
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

Some Frenchmen did as in De Gaulle but not Petain. The government gave up, so yes, no Honor.


Why should Spain have more?

Because of the Spanish Code of Honor.

Here is an example:

https://www.npr.org/2020/08/13/900855625/a-court-case-in-spain-raises-hope-for-justice-for-priests-killed-in-el-salvador


Let's be clear: The French actually fought the Germans. The Spanish stayed neutral. Sounds like the French win in the honor department.

quote:

It is in Franco's interest to keep things the way that they are/were. No war, rebuild the country, get revenues from the importation of goods with re-export to Germany plus the importation of goods from Germany with re-export.


Well that option's gone! He's in war and if he doesn't make a deal, the Allies will put the Republicans in charge after the war.

quote:

quote:

quote:

Plus the Spanish Maquis kept fighting and even invaded Spain to try and get the Allies to take out Franco. That did not work. The Spanish Republicans would be unlikely to work for the Nazis and according to you, the Nazis would take out the Nationalists.


Again, all the more reason for Franco to make a deal.

The Spanish Maqui were fighting the Nazi Germans, why would Franco want them back?

Why would France make a deal because of this? The Spanish Maqui invaded Spain in 1944 after most of France was liberated. So why would Franco make a deal with Nazi Germany then? The few guerillas in Spain could be and were relatively easily handled by the Nationalists, why did Spain need the German Army to help.


He wouldn't be handling them easily if his forces have been wiped off the map. So, if he wants to deal with them, he needs to make a deal.

He dealt with them by letting Germany deal with them. "Let you and him fight!" So no deal was fine with Franco.


Again, that puts the Republicans in charge post war.

quote:

Hannibal had it easy crossing the Alps against no enemy, didn't he? Germanyhad such a easy time sending troops, equipment, and supplies directly from Germany to Italy that they had to go through Switzerland - even though, at the time, Germany and Italy had a common border with road and railroad links.


The Alps! Do I have to explain that the Alps aren't hills, they're even beyond mere mountains. They would be rated Alpine. Supplies were shipped through the Swiss? A neutral? And the border between Italy and Germany was clearly crossed by the Allies in 1945 (link up at Brenner Pass).

quote:

How about this:

quote:

Mountain warfare refers to warfare in the mountains or similarly rough terrain. This type of warfare is also called Alpine warfare, after the Alps mountains. Mountain warfare is one of the most dangerous types of combat as it involves surviving not only combat with the enemy but also the extreme weather and dangerous terrain. Mountain ranges are of strategic importance since they often act as a natural border, and may also be the origin of a water source of (e.g. Golan Heights – water conflict). Attacking a prepared enemy position in mountain terrain requires a greater ratio of attacking soldiers to defending soldiers than would be needed on level ground.[1] Mountains at any time of year are dangerous – lightning, strong gusts of wind, falling rocks, extreme cold, and crevasses are all additional threats to combatants. Movement, reinforcements, and medical evacuation up and down steep slopes and areas where even pack animals cannot reach involves an enormous exertion of energy.
Contents[show]
.
.
.
It is generally accepted that the ratio required for the force launching an offensive to have a good chance of success is 3:1. In mountainous terrain, the required ratio is much more.


https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Mountain_warfare

Then read this and maybe actually even learn something:

FM 3-97.6 (90-6)
MOUNTAIN OPERATIONS
NOVEMBER 2000
HEADQUARTERS, DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY

https://fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-97-6.pdf

So RTFM!


We're talking about hills not mountains and most definitely not alpine terrain.

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 9/27/2020 3:53:57 PM >


_____________________________

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(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 902
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/27/2020 4:21:29 PM   
RangerJoe


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When the Brenner pass was snowed in, the German used the Swiss rail lines.

The Alps are ALPINE? When did that happen!

Spain has the second highest mountains in Europe, that would also rate as ALPINE!

France gave up to retain the empire - at least, that is what was attempted. Spain did not go to war, it was honourable to assist the poor unfortunates fleeing Nazi oppression and death camps. Spain did not have to go to war. If you think that the Republicans in Spain are so nice, then you should read about why the Spanish Civil War occurred.

Remember, steep grades are a road obstacle. So are sharp curves. Combine to two and it is worse. Hill or mountains, it makes no difference.

There would have been no Med strategy until Italy came in. Maybe the Germans thought that the Italians could fight their way out of a wet paper bag if they wanted to. Many did not want to.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 903
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/27/2020 8:33:54 PM   
warspite1


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Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/27/2020 8:46:01 PM >


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(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 904
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/27/2020 8:38:58 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 42840
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/27/2020 8:46:12 PM >


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(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 905
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/27/2020 8:42:28 PM   
warspite1


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Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/27/2020 8:46:23 PM >


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(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 906
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/27/2020 9:18:06 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 42840
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

My point - as well you know - concerned the supply of the 2nd Greek Army and a US military study that showed their supply was via Salonika. If you want to answer that - WITHOUT reference to Yugoslavia(!) then fine. If you don't want to debate any further or stick with your avowed position that the US military don't know what they are taking about, then that's also fine. I will go with the US military study over your war game map, a Wiki map and a war game rule set anytime.


My point is that you are misinterpreting what the study really meant. That's obvious because the maps I posted make clear that the path from Athens to those lines were passable.
warspite1

Fine. I gave you my answer above. I believe the professionals in the US military know what they are talking about. I don't believe you have a clue. Nothing more to say on the subject of supply and the Pindus Mountains.



_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 907
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/27/2020 9:26:07 PM   
warspite1


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Joined: 2/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Again, another point that we've come full circle on. You won't budge because you don't like historical quotes, speeches, directives and diary entries etc. Well I can't make you agree, and clearly neither of us are going to budge on this issue.

I have provided examples of Mussolini's comments that confirm what Italy's role was in the war as he saw it. I have provided quotes from both Badoglio and Mussolini on their opinion of Germany and Italy relying on German help at the outset of the war. I've shown how Mussolini was determined to fight a parallel war for the glory of Italy.

This isn't my opinion - this is all on historical record.


Again, just words. And circumstances would be different if the Germans adopt a Med Strategy. Clearly Mussolini was trying to secure Suez. Securing Gibraltar would be just as important. The Germans have a plan for doing this. Why would he join Barbarossa but not this?

quote:

But you think Mussolini was happy to subordinate all of Italy's plans to German will, you believe Mussolini would be happy to allow Hitler to determine where the Italian Army would be deployed (secondary roles).

You still believe this despite the fact that Mussolini had seen first hand (after the fall of France), that Germany decides how the spoils are carved up and Italy got nothing. Given the reasons Mussolini went to war, you don't think that is important?


I think winning the war and surviving would have been important. And the operations for Gibraltar and Suez definitely fit Italy's national interests.

quote:

And why are you happy to believe this? Because Mussolini offered Italian troops to Hitler for Barbarossa.... You've totally ignored the position Mussolini was in when he made that offer. I see you've now rather slyly introduced "He was persuaded to reinforce those troops" (no doubt referring to the creation of 8th Army rather than the point you were originally proved wrong on (initial Italian contribution). Very disingenuous but this still doesn't help you - in fact it makes your argument even weaker. Hitler only asked for more troops because of the losses suffered by the German Army and the need to plug the gaps. Mussolini agreed (against his generals wishes and the wishes of the Italian population) because he was, by 1942, totally reliant upon Hitler for his own survival.


Again, he joined a German operation, and he was persuaded to reinforce it.
warspite1

Again, I've given my answer above. You don't believe that looking at historical records is important in seeking to determine what an historical character was about.

You have provided nothing to try and prove your point. You prefer to rely on the fact that you are always right.

I've made my case with historical evidence I believe that supports it. You've made your case by stating you are right and can produce not one quote or document that suggests Mussolini would entertain what you suggest in 1940.

I am happy to believe the evidence I've submitted shows Mussolini is more likely to have acted in the way I've suggested. I don't believe you have made your case. Nothing more to say on the subject of Mussolini allowing himself and his country to be mere lackeys of Hitler and Germany in 1940.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/28/2020 7:51:57 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 908
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/27/2020 9:36:38 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 42840
Joined: 2/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

As the Germans made absolutely clear in preparing for Felix (a friendly Spain scenario) we are not talking about simple repair of railroads.


Of course we are. How much repair is required is at issue. Did I mention yet that they have till 1942??

quote:

You have admitted yourself that the Germans need to beat the Spanish quickly.


That's not what I said.

quote:

Indeed you said they would as Germany vs Spain would be a simple 'blitz' operation.


I still think it will be very easy. The size and quality of the Spanish force trumps logistics and terrain.

quote:

But now, you seem to believe the Germans have time to take ground, then rip us the existing railroad and essentially start afresh on new track....


They do have plenty of time. And I don't think the repair will be equivalent to starting from scratch.

quote:

There is one rail line and you are now saying the Germans won't be using it at all while they re-gauge the single rail line. You are ignoring the need to get artillery and ammunition down to Gibraltar (not to mention supplying the troops fighting the Spanish). You've (presumably) bothered to read the German concerns about the width of the roads, their winding nature, the sheer number of tunnels and bridges that can easily be sabotaged (and no, digging out a caved in tunnel is not the work of a moment).


Take North Africa: The distance from Tripoli to El Alamein was 1781 km. Axis truck convoys made the entire journey and back. Distance from San Sebastian to Gibraltar was 1130 km. So, the entire country is within road supply range if necessary.


quote:

But how long will this take? Well you've now completely changed your mind and said the Germans have until 1942!!!!!!!


I've never given a timeframe. But, clearly, they have plenty of time.

warspite1

This response is simply confused and rambling (not just this post but all posts concerning Spain). I've asked you what you were talking about and you've come up with this. Despite the disingenuous answers above, yes you have said the Germans have until 1942 - "How long will it take? They have till 1942". And you also said "The Germans will be in a rush to get things done".

You seem to have confused yourself and give the usual one line answers in response - just minimal effort every time. Well I don't have the time to keep doing your job and trying to work out what you are talking about, when you can't even be bothered to be clear yourself.

Come back to me once you've decided what you mean with regards to Spain and can put together a meaningful paragraph or two.







< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/28/2020 11:49:15 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 909
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/27/2020 9:47:28 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 42840
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Back full circle once again. So let's be clear on this:

- you don't pay any attention to the professionals in the US military


I disagree with your interpretation.

quote:

- you don't pay any attention to the professionals in the German Army


Again, not with your interpretation.

quote:

- you don't pay any attention to records, diaries, directives, and speeches made by historical figures (but do pay attention to certain actions undertaken by those characters even though they are different - and set in a different context - to what we are discussing)


Actions trump words.

quote:

- you simply ignore historical precedent
- you simply ignore (or don't know about - and don't then seek to understand) key historical facts that are completely relevant to this scenario


No idea what that means. Clearly, different circumstances will change what happened historically.

quote:

- you don't engage with Piteas, a Spanish forumite (we are discussing an invasion of Spain)
- you barely engaged with UP844, an Italian forumite (we are discussing the actions of Italy and what she would do in 1940)


I guess, since I'm an American, you will now defer to me on anything I say about America's possible actions.

quote:

- you do pay unerring attention to anything a professional wargame designer says (regardless of whether you understand the reason for the rule or not). Essentially you are saying this. If rule 15(b) says x happens, then x happens and that MUST be FACT.


No. I'm not saying it is a fact, but the opinions of those designers are material to the discussion.

quote:

- you do cling to a Wiki article as proof of something Japan would do, even though it proves nothing because the circumstances were different


It proved my point: Barbarossa was the trigger for Japan's aggressive actions in 1941.

quote:

- you are more than happy to rely on Wiki articles about rail roads that bear not the slightest relevance to what is being discussed


They are extremely relevant, even if they require modification to fit the European system.
warspite1

What?

How many ways can you interpret the quote from the US military study????

How many ways can you interpret what the German supply officers have said????

Actions don't trump words, they CAN'T trump words, when actions don't happen. Why is this so difficult to understand? This is a counterfactual, you are talking about an event that happened, under different circumstances a year later and expect that to be taken as proof. As per post 908, we are simply going round in circles and there is nothing more to say on this.

The comment re Piteas and UP844 was about as childish as it gets. No, you don't DEFER to these gentlemen because of their nationality, but you can seek to engage with them to understand more about their views which, given their nationality MAY prove of interest to the debate. But apparently that thought never occurred to you - but then it wouldn't would it? You are Curtis Lemay and you are always right and neither believed what you were saying to be correct.

Yep, those designers thoughts may be material to the discussion. But you have not a single clue as to their thinking behind rule '15(b)'. If I am wrong please provide their designers notes confirming their reasoning for the capital rule. If you don't know this then you are putting absolute faith in something you don't even understand. How can you think that is sensible?

Except you didn't make the modifications for Spain - because you didn't know them, because you don't believe in making an effort to understand what you seek to pontificate about is important. As said, you have added nothing to develop your argument over the last weeks. You simply repeat the same old stuff, responding with meaningless one liners that don't add any value, or ask me questions that I've taken the time and trouble to answer previously.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/28/2020 11:47:52 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 910
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/27/2020 9:51:22 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 42840
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Use that time to blitz through Turkey and Spain.


Which they will.

quote:

There will be a rush to get Spain done - which will start long before September. But not Gibraltar.


Right. Where does that say anything about how long it will take? Of course they will want to get started as soon as possible and get finished as soon as possible. But I did NOT say it will be done quickly (or slowly). I haven't said anything about how long it will take. But they do have plenty of time.
warspite1

Of course they will - Curtis Lemay has decreed it. No evidence of course, no research, no effort expended. But Curtis Lemay knows it so it will be so.

Please see post 909. Once you've got your confused thoughts together on Spain let me know, try - as I've done - putting them into some sort of timeline for what could be expected to happen and why. Try and make clear what you are saying, develop your thoughts into a few paragraphs and we can take from there.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/28/2020 8:04:48 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 911
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/27/2020 9:57:05 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 42840
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

At the very minimum there is a need to determine that a Gibraltar operation is feasible and that means a lot (as per historical) of intelligence missions with Spanish assistance. So long as Gibraltar is considered feasible the Spanish operation can start.


Again, why does doing this require that the Germans wait till after France? Why can't they get all discussions with Franco out of the way long before, since they know they are going to do a Med Strategy?

quote:

Hahahahaha nice little sly insertion of the thoroughly ridiculous rule 15(b) there..... Getting to Madrid, by itself, means jack. They also need to get to Barcelona in the northeast, they need to get to Corunna in the northwest, they need to get to Valencia, Malaga, Seville, Murcia... in other words, the Germans need to beat a very angry, very united, and very desperate Spanish population.


SPI says otherwise. And, let's be clear, the Spanish army is smaller than the BEF (which was only about 10% of the force the Germans were facing in France) and of much poorer quality. United? Republicans and Nationalists?

warspite1

Re the first point, for the nth time, I've set all this out. You can't be bothered to read what I've written so I have no inclination to spell it out for you again just so that you can ignore me again and ask the same inane question over and over.

Re the second point. Please see post 910 and let me see the designers notes confirming their thinking on rule '15(b)'. I assume you must have them as otherwise how could you know what their thinking was? Maybe it was game balance, game play, counter restriction? But you've been told all this. Once again. Where is the evidence to back up your comments?



_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 912
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/27/2020 10:10:45 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 42840
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I would say that the obvious point of Vichy was to create an large enclave within France that didn't have Germans occupying it. Spain would have the same desire.

warspite1

Erm..... Curtis Lemay that answer is absolutely staggering . You appear to have not the first clue about Vichy France.... wow. How can you be comfortable suggesting things you clearly just don't even bother to try and understand?


What have I got wrong? The whole point of Vichy obviously was to keep the Germans out of much of France. What other benefit would there have been?

quote:

warspite1

Erm......

a) why would the British be occupying any part of French North Africa? That is a monumentally ridiculous question to ask - goodness alone knows what point you were trying to make or why you even thought that question in the slightest bit relevant to the situation under discussion....


Exactly, and just as ridiculous for the British to occupy the Canaries when they could have achieved the same on the mainland.

quote:

b) The Spanish wouldn't be allowing the British to occupy the Canaries would they?????? The Spanish have just been back-stabbed by their 'friends'. As is very common, we now have a situation where Spain's enemy's (Germany) enemy (Britain) has just become their 'friend'. Did the Greeks deny the British the use of Crete as part of their assisting Greece???? Once again you seem to have got confused over something really very simple.


Crete was very close to the battle area. The Canaries were not.

quote:

c) The British agree to do all they can to assist the Spanish, but can't do anything if Gibraltar is negated by bombing and ultimately captured. So they ask the Spanish to allow the navy the use of the Canaries as a Gibraltar replacement. In return the British give the Spanish as much assistance as possible (plus certain promises re the future). From this base, the Royal Navy can provide naval gunfire support, they can provide air support from Spanish Morocco.


By the time Gibraltar is under fire, Vichy Spain will be established.

quote:

The British will also be assisting getting troops from Spanish Morocco and the islands to the mainland.


Why would the Spanish need any more help with that than the French did from FNA? Why would they want the British to interfere with it?

quote:

You think the British Government wouldn't work with a reprehensible regime in order to fight Germany? The British were giving hefty bribes to Spanish generals and politicians to keep them onside. They would do what it took.

And let's face it, Britain (and the USA) allied with the USSR - I don't think dealing with Spain is going to trouble Churchill. Hell, the Greek Government the British tried to assist was hardly a model of democracy was it?


?? What was that about?

quote:

But of course its on the map. The Canaries were important to both Britain and Germany. This game you've based an entire scenario on and have said how realistic it is MUST have the Canaries in it.....


The game map. Why would it need the Canaries?
warspite1

What have you got wrong? Listen. I am tired of doing all the work around here. You believe you have the knowledge to be able to talk about Vichy? Well prove it. Stop asking stupid questions and set out your ideas. Here's an idea! How about you do some work and set out the circumstances of how a 'Vichy' Spain comes about? Do you think you can manage that? This isn't rocket science. You have someone stating that a 'Vichy' Spain is not going to happen. But you say it will. So, make your case. And no, making your case isn't a series of pithy one-liners, it's a reasoned, well thought out article to explain what you believe would happen to make a 'Vichy' Spain scenario possible. You can't simply say "Well France had one so I think Spain will get one too so there". That is not a reasoned argument. That is just you saying "I'm right".


So you think the British will sit there, allow Spain to be conquered and then, only when Gibraltar is attacked, will they make their move in the Canaries???? You need to think more about what you are saying - and the comment about Crete was a hoot.



< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/28/2020 8:12:15 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 913
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/27/2020 10:21:20 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8206
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline
If/When Spain is attacked by Nazi Germany, the British would probably be welcomed into the Canary Islands.

There is a rush to get things done but there is no rush because the Nazi Germans have until 1942.


_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 914
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/27/2020 10:28:33 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 5085
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

on rule '15(b)'.


Warspite, everyone that’s in the know, knows it’s rule case [34.57] for Pete’s sake!



[34.57]
Surrender: Spain surrenders when Madrid
is occupied by Enemy units. Spanish units are then
removed from play. Spain becomes Axis when the
Political Point Level reaches 75.

Rule 15 is the Weather rules...


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War in the East/War in the East II - Alpha Test Teams
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(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 915
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/27/2020 11:48:30 PM   
Aurelian

 

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Why does it matter about what SPI said back in the 1970s? They're gone State of the art has moved forward over the decades. From what I understand with the game Warplan, taking the capital is not enough.

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(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 916
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/27/2020 11:50:26 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

on rule '15(b)'.


Warspite, everyone that’s in the know, knows it’s rule case [34.57] for Pete’s sake!



[34.57]
Surrender: Spain surrenders when Madrid
is occupied by Enemy units. Spanish units are then
removed from play. Spain becomes Axis when the
Political Point Level reaches 75.

Rule 15 is the Weather rules...



Of course the weather rules. Could you imagine driving a vehicle in the mountains during freezing rain?

Or even walking some hills in that type of weather? Much less running them? Or trying to attack up these hills in full field gear? Yes, under fire!






Attachment (1)

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(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 917
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/28/2020 6:17:17 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 42840
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

on rule '15(b)'.


Warspite, everyone that’s in the know, knows it’s rule case [34.57] for Pete’s sake!



[34.57]
Surrender: Spain surrenders when Madrid
is occupied by Enemy units. Spanish units are then
removed from play. Spain becomes Axis when the
Political Point Level reaches 75.

Rule 15 is the Weather rules...

warspite1

For the purposes of this thread, all opinions on what would or wouldn't have happened that don't seek to provide any evidence in support, other than a war game rule book , can be referred to as rule 15(b) .


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(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 918
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/28/2020 6:30:48 AM   
warspite1


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Joined: 2/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Why does it matter about what SPI said back in the 1970s? They're gone State of the art has moved forward over the decades. From what I understand with the game Warplan, taking the capital is not enough.
warspite1

Don't be ridiculous Aurelian. EVERY European country surrendered when the capital was occupied. Curtis Lemay has said so. And if you don't believe him, then have a look at Rule 15(b). All the proof you need. End of Discussion .

Back in the real world....

Yes, a lot of games don't set such an arbitrary rule for surrender. As an example in World In Flames, as a rule, a player needs to take out the production centres - in the case of Spain that would be Bilbao, Barcelona and Madrid.

But then I wouldn't seek to base any counterfactual on a rule in any wargame alone. Not unreasonably, I would want to see the thinking behind the rule at the very least.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/28/2020 8:14:08 AM >


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(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 919
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/28/2020 6:48:33 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

If/When Spain is attacked by Nazi Germany, the British would probably be welcomed into the Canary Islands.

warspite1

Exactly and I just don't understand the totally muddled, fuzzy thinking employed here.

So what is being said here is that the Spanish, not unreasonably, are angry at the betrayal they've suffered at the hands of their supposed friends. Spain has a major problem with inadequate food and this action by Germany is going to tip that into famine. The Spanish have been stabbed in the back, they literally have nothing to lose. They are going to fight. BUT.....

...apparently, their willingness to fight, doesn't include allowing the British to help them. Despite the fact that the whole point of fighting is to defeat the Germans, they are not going to allow the British the thing the British need most in this situation - the use of a naval anchorage to replace Gibraltar. This is needed not only to assist Spain, but for the on-going war against the u-boats and - with the fall of Gibraltar - maybe the Italian navy too.

Yes, not allowing the British access to the Canary Islands makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. But then Curtis Lemay's entire thinking around Spain is confused - and 'Vichy' Spain simply provides the cherry on the cake.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/28/2020 8:15:33 AM >


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(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 920
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/28/2020 7:18:13 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 42840
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Could you imagine driving a vehicle in the mountains during freezing rain?

Or even walking some hills in that type of weather? Much less running them? Or trying to attack up these hills in full field gear? Yes, under fire!

warspite1

The German planning staff for Felix mentions this - and I've written what they've said. Yes, the need for the troops to negotiate 1,200kms - some of which is in high mountain passes, was a serious concern to the Germans whose troops had to take everything with them as there was no possibility of living off the land. Moreover these twisting, narrow passes were hardly ideal for armour. And this is for a Spain friendly scenario!!

But what we have here instead is a war with Spain. And as Lemay has admitted himself, when a country is attacked (as opposed to being the attacker) then the mindset is different.

None of us know how the Spanish will fight, but in a counterfactual one simply looks at what evidence there is and makes the best assumption they believe to be realistic.

Of course the Germans will conquer Spain, but what the comments of the professionals in the Germany army make abundantly and crystal clear, is that if the Spanish do offer any kind of determined resistance (and the circumstances of the German betrayal suggest they will) then this is not going to be a 'blitzkrieg' that Lemay suggests.

Lemay can harp on all he wants about the size and state of the Spanish army. But the fact is that by the Germans own calculations, even a Spain friendly scenario - and with everything going smoothly - would mean this operation taking almost as long it took the Germans to beat France.

The Germans have a narrow front to attack from with no diversion of Spanish force elsewhere. Everything would depend on how long the Spanish could hold the Germans up in the hills and mountains along the border, how much damage they could do to the rail line and roads (destroying bridges and collapsing tunnels) and thus give Spain time to mobilise fully. Much too depends on the response from the British. Do they know how vulnerable the German supply line is in on the border?

Just looking at the sheer volume of artillery regiments the Germans needed to employ for Gibraltar, just looking at the massive quantities of shells they felt were necessary to reduce the rock (in addition to the 800 aircraft for Gibraltar alone) - these will need to be transported from the French border to southern Spain once a route has been cleared. One can expect the rail lines (such good that they were) to have been comprehensively destroyed, roads through mountains blocked, bridges brought down and tunnels collapsed.

Some blitzkrieg....


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(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 921
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/28/2020 11:56:44 AM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 4076
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Why does it matter about what SPI said back in the 1970s? They're gone State of the art has moved forward over the decades. From what I understand with the game Warplan, taking the capital is not enough.
warspite1

Don't be ridiculous Aurelian. EVERY European country surrendered when the capital was occupied. Curtis Lemay has said so. And if you don't believe him, then have a look at Rule 15(b). All the proof you need. End of Discussion .

Back in the real world....

Yes, a lot of games don't set such an arbitrary rule for surrender. As an example in World In Flames, as a rule, a player needs to take out the production centres - in the case of Spain that would be Bilbao, Barcelona and Madrid.

But then I wouldn't seek to base any counterfactual on a rule in any wargame alone. Not unreasonably, I would want to see the thinking behind the rule at the very least.


Drat. Forgot about that rule.. But to return to reality. Let's say that the Axis invade Spain. Just what would stop the British from taking the Canaries if they felt it necessary?

And: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Felix called for not two army groups, or even two armies, but two corps.

And as mentioned in the article linked above, Franco expected to lose the Canary islands and other overseas possessions if Gibraltar was taken.

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 9/28/2020 12:44:10 PM >


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(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 922
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/28/2020 12:33:33 PM   
Orm


Posts: 20155
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


Yes, a lot of games don't set such an arbitrary rule for surrender. As an example in World In Flames, as a rule, a player needs to take out the production centres - in the case of Spain that would be Bilbao, Barcelona and Madrid.


I would like to point out that Spain fights on from overseas in MWIF even after mainland Spain has fallen. No 'Vichy' Spain here. The Canaries makes for good Allied bases during the struggle in the Atlantic. And Spanish Morocco is nice to base Allied forces for support of Gibraltar. Or, if Gibraltar falls to Axis, annoy the Axis forces trying to use Gibraltar as a base.

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(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 923
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/28/2020 12:49:14 PM   
Zovs


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From: United States
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Sorry my comments about the rules were suppose to be done in jest.

I think that in the context of discussing Med. Front strategy, using war games as a secondary tool is still valid (at least from my perspective). I own the computerized version of both War in Europe (which implements both the 1976 SPI rules, the 1999 rules and the 2005 implementation of further rules), and MWiF. I also own WarPlan and the Strategic Command series. So I like seeing how each of these deals with specific issues and just find it interesting how these various games have implemented various rules regarding alt history to one extent or another.

But I agree with what and where Warspite is going with this discussion, i.e. using historical documents and professional military staff studies. I am under no illusion that war game designers (whether they are from the 70's, 80's, 90's and 2000's) have to make things fit into whatever design and or physical limits they are facing.

So I guess my throwing in some war game stuff was just to throw in some other ideas for discussion.

As far as war games I think I am still searching for one that can somehow combine elements of SPI's War in Europe, ADG's World in Flames and GDW's The Europa series into one big massive global strategic with operational elements that is pretty realistic and fun to play. The 'Holy Grail' if you will.



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(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 924
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/28/2020 2:16:43 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8206
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Sorry my comments about the rules were suppose to be done in jest.

I think that in the context of discussing Med. Front strategy, using war games as a secondary tool is still valid (at least from my perspective). I own the computerized version of both War in Europe (which implements both the 1976 SPI rules, the 1999 rules and the 2005 implementation of further rules), and MWiF. I also own WarPlan and the Strategic Command series. So I like seeing how each of these deals with specific issues and just find it interesting how these various games have implemented various rules regarding alt history to one extent or another.

But I agree with what and where Warspite is going with this discussion, i.e. using historical documents and professional military staff studies. I am under no illusion that war game designers (whether they are from the 70's, 80's, 90's and 2000's) have to make things fit into whatever design and or physical limits they are facing.

So I guess my throwing in some war game stuff was just to throw in some other ideas for discussion.

As far as war games I think I am still searching for one that can somehow combine elements of SPI's War in Europe, ADG's World in Flames and GDW's The Europa series into one big massive global strategic with operational elements that is pretty realistic and fun to play. The 'Holy Grail' if you will.


So what would you think of attacking up those hills? Or even running them with full gear? How about just walking up and down them at a good pace? Does the movie Stripes bring back fond memories?

< Message edited by RangerJoe -- 9/28/2020 3:25:00 PM >


_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 925
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/28/2020 3:24:03 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 42840
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Drat. Forgot about that rule.. But to return to reality. Let's say that the Axis invade Spain. Just what would stop the British from taking the Canaries if they felt it necessary?

warspite1

Quite. The British had plans in place to seize the Canaries in the event that Spain allied to Germany. It was that important.

In fact I think it was so important that the British would seize them regardless - even in the massively unlikely event that Germany attacked Spain and Spain wouldn't allow Britain to use the islands. The loss of Gibraltar wouldn't be great for the British - having the Canaries (and maybe the Azores) occupied by the Germans would be pretty disastrous.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

And as mentioned in the article linked above, Franco expected to lose the Canary islands and other overseas possessions if Gibraltar was taken.

warspite1

One of the reasons Franco wouldn't do a deal with Hitler was that Hitler actually expected Spain to give them one of the Canary Islands in return...... Astonishing isn't it?








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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 926
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/28/2020 3:26:13 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 42840
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


Yes, a lot of games don't set such an arbitrary rule for surrender. As an example in World In Flames, as a rule, a player needs to take out the production centres - in the case of Spain that would be Bilbao, Barcelona and Madrid.


I would like to point out that Spain fights on from overseas in MWIF even after mainland Spain has fallen. No 'Vichy' Spain here. The Canaries makes for good Allied bases during the struggle in the Atlantic. And Spanish Morocco is nice to base Allied forces for support of Gibraltar. Or, if Gibraltar falls to Axis, annoy the Axis forces trying to use Gibraltar as a base.

warspite1

Exactly, and Hitler - forever worrying about his flanks - was mindful of this. This is why he expected an armoured and motorised division to occupy Spanish Morocco at least initially.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 927
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/28/2020 3:39:09 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 42840
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Sorry my comments about the rules were suppose to be done in jest.

I think that in the context of discussing Med. Front strategy, using war games as a secondary tool is still valid (at least from my perspective). I own the computerized version of both War in Europe (which implements both the 1976 SPI rules, the 1999 rules and the 2005 implementation of further rules), and MWiF. I also own WarPlan and the Strategic Command series. So I like seeing how each of these deals with specific issues and just find it interesting how these various games have implemented various rules regarding alt history to one extent or another.

But I agree with what and where Warspite is going with this discussion, i.e. using historical documents and professional military staff studies. I am under no illusion that war game designers (whether they are from the 70's, 80's, 90's and 2000's) have to make things fit into whatever design and or physical limits they are facing.

So I guess my throwing in some war game stuff was just to throw in some other ideas for discussion.

As far as war games I think I am still searching for one that can somehow combine elements of SPI's War in Europe, ADG's World in Flames and GDW's The Europa series into one big massive global strategic with operational elements that is pretty realistic and fun to play. The 'Holy Grail' if you will.


warspite1

Hi Zovs - sorry that flew right over my head.

What I want to be clear about is that there is no game bashing from me. Games are games and we like them and accept them - or we don't.

I wouldn't expect any game to be able to tell me what would have happened in WWII from a counterfactual point of view and that is not a criticism.

Imagine the war stopped in October 1939. Chamberlain and Daladier decided that they made a mistake, and in a round of mutual back slapping and congratulation, Hitler decided that he would be happy for Germans to live within Germany's own borders.

Right, now game makers make "What-if" games based on what could have happened if peace didn't break out.

How many games:

- do you think we see the Germans landing in Narvik, Trondheim and Bergen without interception by the RN?

- do you think would allows a defeat of France in six weeks?

- do you think would see Germany in the suburbs of Moscow by December 1941 and the Soviets in Berlin three and a half years later?

- do you think would see Japan taking the PI, Malaya, Singapore, Burma, the NEI in 6 months?

War games can be great fun, they can be useful as a guide - but a tool that can be relied upon to model what-ifs? Don't make me laugh...





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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 928
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/28/2020 3:59:35 PM   
Zovs


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No worries and agree.

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(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 929
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/28/2020 4:35:14 PM   
Piteas


Posts: 117
Joined: 3/10/2014
From: Spain
Status: offline
A curious story: 007 in Spain 1940

On the other hand, my opinion on everything commented so far can be summed up in that Spain could be "conquered" in one or two months, but it would be another Yugoslavia, twice as large, more mountainous and with English troops inside fervently supported by the population, while the Germans suffered small attacks everywhere. A aryan hell.



(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 930
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