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Subs in a big ocean without a gas station in a 1000 miles

 
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Subs in a big ocean without a gas station in a 1000 miles - 8/1/2020 8:47:03 PM   
von Beanie


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I'm sure this has been answered before, but my search couldn't find the earlier threads.

Is there any workaround to refuel an out-of-fuel sub at sea? I'm losing more subs to out of fuel problems because the computer sometimes sends them to sea without full tanks, and by the time I get them back to port at one hex per turn with the added damage, they are out of action for months. I've tried everything I can think of (other ships, AO, TK, AS, SS) to refuel them at sea, but nothing seems to work. Please help.
Post #: 1
RE: Subs in a big ocean without a gas station in a 1000... - 8/1/2020 8:50:13 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


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Subs cannot refuel at sea - unless you sacrifice a virgin when the moon is full.

Don't use auto-sub ops, run them yourself.

< Message edited by LargeSlowTarget -- 8/1/2020 8:51:27 PM >


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RE: Subs in a big ocean without a gas station in a 1000... - 8/1/2020 9:09:37 PM   
Shellshock


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quote:

ORIGINAL: von Beanie
I've tried everything I can think of (other ships, AO, TK, AS, SS) to refuel them at sea, but nothing seems to work.


Did you call AAA for a tow?



Regrettably, those things don't work in this game so you have to manage subs yourself.

I don't think US subs ever had to have their tanks topped off by other subs like the U-boats did. From what I've read about the Atlantic War fuel was a constant headache for the German Type VIIs operating off the US east coast and Caribbean.



Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Shellshock -- 8/1/2020 9:13:20 PM >

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RE: Subs in a big ocean without a gas station in a 1000... - 8/1/2020 9:38:17 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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Subs can take a lot of damage before sinking,

I would suggest you look for a small level-1 port base, ideally with some fuel (many small ports start with 20 or 50 fuel)

or find a dot base you can park the sub, then get a small xAKL move some fuel to it,

it is not possible to refuel from a ship or from a sub

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RE: Subs in a big ocean without a gas station in a 1000... - 8/2/2020 4:06:22 PM   
Treetop64


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From: 519 Redwood City - BASE (Hex 218, 70)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: von Beanie

I'm sure this has been answered before, but my search couldn't find the earlier threads.

Is there any workaround to refuel an out-of-fuel sub at sea? I'm losing more subs to out of fuel problems because the computer sometimes sends them to sea without full tanks, and by the time I get them back to port at one hex per turn with the added damage, they are out of action for months. I've tried everything I can think of (other ships, AO, TK, AS, SS) to refuel them at sea, but nothing seems to work. Please help.


I've only run into this problem with the shorter ranged Dutch submarines. Only after their homeport was relocated after the DEI was overrun.

I still run auto sub ops, but every couple of turns or so I filter the all-ships list (not the task force list) to show just subs and sort for endurance, and check on those running low or are red. Easy to manage and takes just a couple of minutes or so.

EDIT: Just remembered, you have to keep a close eye on how the USN S-boats are handled. For example, the computer may try to transfer them to another base that is far beyond their endurance (San Diego to Perth, non-stop), and you have to step in to resolve the situation. I keep the S-boats under manual control for this reason.

< Message edited by Treetop64 -- 8/3/2020 12:48:44 AM >


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RE: Subs in a big ocean without a gas station in a 1000... - 8/2/2020 6:11:22 PM   
von Beanie


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The fact that subs can't be refueled at sea is weird. I'm guessing it was a design feature to force both sides to periodically return their subs to a port like was done historically. On the other hand, a workaround is needed in odd situations when a sub is out of fuel in the middle of nowhere.

To clarify, I'm not using AutoSubs, but that is the game setting my opponent wanted. My problem is that every time when I return my subs to a port to make minor repairs, the moment the sub is repaired the computer aliens take over and send it on a mission. As a result I have to use the task force button and look at my sub task forces EVERY TURN to see which ones have been taken over by the computer aliens. I can then change the destination and remove the assigned patrol zones. Earlier in the game I wasn't doing this every turn and some of the alien-controlled subs automatically tried to move across the ocean without enough fuel to get wherever they were going. If I could use something like an AS ship (that doesn't have a lot of fuel) to go rescue these lost subs it would be a reasonable workaround that likely doesn't violate the original design intention.


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RE: Subs in a big ocean without a gas station in a 1000... - 8/2/2020 6:13:42 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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sub refueling was not implemented in game to avoid "eternal" patrols

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RE: Subs in a big ocean without a gas station in a 1000... - 8/2/2020 6:27:16 PM   
Alfred

 

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You are using "AutoSubs".  You can delude yourself all you want but your opponent chose that setting and you are stuck with it for the whole game.

The game code already has checks to avoid auto subs running out of fuel.  These checks were tightened considerably in an early patch.  The code will not send out a sub with insufficient fuel to (a) get to the location and (b) return to base and (c) have some spare fuel to account for patrol time and combat.  Of course if its departing home port is lost after the sub TF has put to sea, then those calculations have been rendered null.

Either you have not patched the game or there are some other relevant player actioned facts which you have omitted to state.

Alfred

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RE: Subs in a big ocean without a gas station in a 1000... - 8/2/2020 11:11:47 PM   
fcooke

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

sub refueling was not implemented in game to avoid "eternal" patrols

I think 52 US subs from WW2 are on eternal patrols.

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RE: Subs in a big ocean without a gas station in a 1000... - 8/3/2020 1:12:59 AM   
Treetop64


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The game code already has checks to avoid auto subs running out of fuel.  These checks were tightened considerably in an early patch.  The code will not send out a sub with insufficient fuel to (a) get to the location and (b) return to base and (c) have some spare fuel to account for patrol time and combat.  Of course if its departing home port is lost after the sub TF has put to sea, then those calculations have been rendered null.

Either you have not patched the game or there are some other relevant player actioned facts which you have omitted to state.

Alfred



I can confirm that, on occasion, computer-controlled subs will occasionally run their tanks dry while RTB'ing.

Installation has latest official patch and unofficial Beta 7 patch. Using Andy's Scenario 100.

In my case, it only occurs with the older, shortest-ranged Dutch K-class boats (stationed at either Chittagong or Trincomalee), or any USN Old S-Class boats at San Diego (the before-mentioned endurance treks from San Diego to Perth). In the case of the old Dutch boats, they'll head out on patrol but run dry roughly ten hexes before arrival on their return trip. They were on auto ops, and their assigned homeports are secure and stable, sufficiently stocked, and have surviving Dutch ASs present.

To date, none of the Gatos or T-Classes (Midway), or pre-fleet boat S's (Brisbane), or P's (Perth) have run into this issue. The long-legged Dutch O class are good as well, as are the two Brit subs. Just the oldest, shortest ranged boats are having this issue.

The workaround is simply to manually manage the problematic boats, which is what I've done. But on auto-ops the problem is occurring.

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RE: Subs in a big ocean without a gas station in a 1000... - 8/3/2020 3:57:38 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 17254
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Treetop64


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The game code already has checks to avoid auto subs running out of fuel.  These checks were tightened considerably in an early patch.  The code will not send out a sub with insufficient fuel to (a) get to the location and (b) return to base and (c) have some spare fuel to account for patrol time and combat.  Of course if its departing home port is lost after the sub TF has put to sea, then those calculations have been rendered null.

Either you have not patched the game or there are some other relevant player actioned facts which you have omitted to state.

Alfred



I can confirm that, on occasion, computer-controlled subs will occasionally run their tanks dry while RTB'ing.

Installation has latest official patch and unofficial Beta 7 patch. Using Andy's Scenario 100.

In my case, it only occurs with the older, shortest-ranged Dutch K-class boats (stationed at either Chittagong or Trincomalee), or any USN Old S-Class boats at San Diego (the before-mentioned endurance treks from San Diego to Perth). In the case of the old Dutch boats, they'll head out on patrol but run dry roughly ten hexes before arrival on their return trip. They were on auto ops, and their assigned homeports are secure and stable, sufficiently stocked, and have surviving Dutch ASs present.

To date, none of the Gatos or T-Classes (Midway), or pre-fleet boat S's (Brisbane), or P's (Perth) have run into this issue. The long-legged Dutch O class are good as well, as are the two Brit subs. Just the oldest, shortest ranged boats are having this issue.

The workaround is simply to manually manage the problematic boats, which is what I've done. But on auto-ops the problem is occurring.

The algorithm probably doesn't take account of high speed fuel usage when a sub reacts. It has no way of knowing how much that will happen when it does its original calculation. The computer should be the one scanning the subs every turn and starting the low fuel ones back to base. But maybe the developers wanted to reward diligent players and make casual ones pay a penalty in aggravation.
FWIW, I ran a sub out of fuel when I accidently left it on full speed and it was far from a base. It took about 20 days for the sail on the periscope to get it back to a base with fuel and the system damage was around 50 IIRC. Not too bad. That was a US fleet boat - I don't think the IJ subs are quite as sturdy.

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RE: Subs in a big ocean without a gas station in a 1000... - 8/3/2020 6:17:13 AM   
Ian R

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

The computer should be the one scanning the subs every turn and starting the low fuel ones back to base.


Given that low ammunition state may not occur on a sub-patrol (although it may be that it will prompt the computer to send a TF home if a boat hits winchester - another reason for sending out 1 boat TFs), I think it does check for low fuel - whether you are on auto-sub or not. The problem is that auto-sub apparently calculates bingo fuel based on your original port where the TF was formed, if I understand Alfred correctly.

Having said that, even though I do not use autosub ops, I have had the odd sub run out of fuel. I put this down to player mismanagement. "Always the farmer, never the dog."


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Ian R

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RE: Subs in a big ocean without a gas station in a 1000... - 8/3/2020 7:31:53 AM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

The computer should be the one scanning the subs every turn and starting the low fuel ones back to base.


Given that low ammunition state may not occur on a sub-patrol (although it may be that it will prompt the computer to send a TF home if a boat hits winchester - another reason for sending out 1 boat TFs), I think it does check for low fuel - whether you are on auto-sub or not. The problem is that auto-sub apparently calculates bingo fuel based on your original port where the TF was formed, if I understand Alfred correctly.

Having said that, even though I do not use autosub ops, I have had the odd sub run out of fuel. I put this down to player mismanagement. "Always the farmer, never the dog."



A correct understanding.

Part of the relevant algorithms deal with shifting the short range subs from offensive patrols to defensive patrols at a particular point in time. The defensive patrols operate much closer to the home port.

Alfred

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Post #: 13
RE: Subs in a big ocean without a gas station in a 1000... - 8/3/2020 12:14:53 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 17254
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

The computer should be the one scanning the subs every turn and starting the low fuel ones back to base.


Given that low ammunition state may not occur on a sub-patrol (although it may be that it will prompt the computer to send a TF home if a boat hits winchester - another reason for sending out 1 boat TFs), I think it does check for low fuel - whether you are on auto-sub or not. The problem is that auto-sub apparently calculates bingo fuel based on your original port where the TF was formed, if I understand Alfred correctly.

Having said that, even though I do not use autosub ops, I have had the odd sub run out of fuel. I put this down to player mismanagement. "Always the farmer, never the dog."



A correct understanding.

Part of the relevant algorithms deal with shifting the short range subs from offensive patrols to defensive patrols at a particular point in time. The defensive patrols operate much closer to the home port.

Alfred


Thank you both for the clarification. I understood the previous explanations to mean that the AI calculated the number of days the sub would be on patrol when it was first set up and didn't check back until a few days before that patrol was due to end. So we still have people saying the short ranged Dutch boats are not being sent back to port early enough, with no change in their original home port. A minor glitch, but one the player needs to keep in mind.

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RE: Subs in a big ocean without a gas station in a 1000... - 8/3/2020 1:09:09 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


...Thank you both for the clarification. I understood the previous explanations to mean that the AI calculated the number of days the sub would be on patrol when it was first set up and didn't check back until a few days before that patrol was due to end. So we still have people saying the short ranged Dutch boats are not being sent back to port early enough, with no change in their original home port. A minor glitch, but one the player needs to keep in mind.


The coding is much more complicated than that.

The fuel status checking is much more regular. However there are several factors which cannot be foreseen in advance, can come into play after the key decision of starting the patrol. The more reserve kept for these unforeseen potentialities, the shorter the patrol time will be. Then the criticism will be, and it has been raised on the forum, the subs are returning too soon with too much fuel and ammo.

The bottom line is do not have the computer involved in creating and launching sub TFs. Its routing decisions are not necessarily those of a human player. It is not a fix to say "its OK, I can always go in and subsequently adjust that TF".

I for one, have never, ever had a sub TF run out of fuel on the return trip. But then I do everything correctly.

Alfred

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RE: Subs in a big ocean without a gas station in a 1000... - 8/3/2020 5:25:16 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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I am the opponent in this game and I insisted on auto sub ops to minimise my micro !!!

Unfortunately von Beanie is feeling the pain - his solution so far conquer the entire map so he always has a base to refuel at ;)

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RE: Subs in a big ocean without a gas station in a 1000... - 8/4/2020 1:43:58 AM   
rustysi


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quote:

I for one, have never, ever had a sub TF run out of fuel on the return trip.


Me too.

quote:

But then I do everything correctly.


Me too.

No wait, that can't be right.

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RE: Subs in a big ocean without a gas station in a 1000... - 8/4/2020 12:35:05 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

But then I do everything correctly.


(rustysi)

Me too.

No wait, that can't be right.


Isn't that what she said?


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RE: Subs in a big ocean without a gas station in a 1000... - 8/4/2020 12:55:01 PM   
Yaab


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Subs cannot refuel at sea - unless you sacrifice a virgin when the moon is full.

Don't use auto-sub ops, run them yourself.


Somehow reminds me of this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xmJnS0RsQo

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RE: Subs in a big ocean without a gas station in a 1000... - 8/4/2020 10:25:32 PM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab


quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Subs cannot refuel at sea - unless you sacrifice a virgin when the moon is full.

Don't use auto-sub ops, run them yourself.


Somehow reminds me of this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xmJnS0RsQo

Do they have Uber for submarines?

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 20
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