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Who was Superior? US vs German Squads

 
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Who was Superior? US vs German Squads - 7/30/2020 5:25:28 PM   
rommel222

 

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Greetings to All,
Interesting video analysis of US vs German squads in !944 squad level actions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBjlcA6XRWE
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RE: Who was Superior? US vs German Squads - 7/30/2020 6:40:49 PM   
Zap


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I think it depends on how well equipped the infantry was. My simple evaluation. German Infantry early war was well equipped and equal to US troops. As the war went on Germans lost that edge.
The Germans had great determination. US troops had a calling to fulfill. I would offer they were equal.

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RE: Who was Superior? US vs German Squads - 7/30/2020 6:59:44 PM   
wesy


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Quantity has a quality all it's own.

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RE: Who was Superior? US vs German Squads - 7/30/2020 7:09:01 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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Depends upon what part of 1944 you're talking about. Germans in Normandy were pretty elite: Out of about 40 divisions, 10 were panzer divisions (5 of those SS Panzer divisions) plus some airborne. When you get to Bastogne, it was the 101st Airborne vs. primarily volksgrenadiers.

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RE: Who was Superior? US vs German Squads - 7/30/2020 7:47:55 PM   
wodin


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Depends period of War. I'd say on the whole the German squad. Americans relied very heavily on extremely heavy arty overwhelming firepower more so than inf tactics. To hold the Russians back aswell as fighting on other fronts for aslong as they did says alot about the German infantryman.

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RE: Who was Superior? US vs German Squads - 7/30/2020 10:17:51 PM   
MrsWargamer


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Ask an ASL player this question, you will get a faster easier to understand answer.

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RE: Who was Superior? US vs German Squads - 7/30/2020 10:48:56 PM   
RangerJoe


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The American infantryman when he dropped to the ground tended not to move. The Germans were taught to move right or left. When the soldier got up, the American came up from the same place that he went down, the German did not. Thus the American was easier to shoot.

The American would improvise, the Germans tended not to improvise. Two American infantrymen would shoot at an enemy column, then relocate.

The Americans had an automatic rifle with an 8 round clip. The Germans had a bolt action rifle. The Americans also had the Browning Automatic Rifle with a nice clip. The Germans had a bolt action rifle.

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RE: Who was Superior? US vs German Squads - 7/31/2020 1:40:31 AM   
Freyr Oakenshield


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The American infantryman when he dropped to the ground tended not to move. The Germans were taught to move right or left. When the soldier got up, the American came up from the same place that he went down, the German did not. Thus the American was easier to shoot.

The American would improvise, the Germans tended not to improvise. Two American infantrymen would shoot at an enemy column, then relocate.




Did they? That's very interesting indeed...

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RE: Who was Superior? US vs German Squads - 7/31/2020 7:14:36 AM   
Orm


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Thank you, rommel222, for sharing.

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RE: Who was Superior? US vs German Squads - 7/31/2020 7:20:50 AM   
Orm


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The US squad had 12 men, versus the German 10. So, with a 20% advantage in soldiers the US squad should beat the German squad in a one on one situation. A lot. But they didn't. They US squads won more but not significantly more as I would expect them to with a two man advantage.

Perhaps a better test would be 5 US squads versus 6 German squads? 60 men versus 60 men. Although I am not sure if their support squads had the same number of men, but if they did it would be nice to include one support squad on each side.

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RE: Who was Superior? US vs German Squads - 7/31/2020 12:27:32 PM   
RangerJoe


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Bad tactics in the video. You don't bunch up, keep 5 yards/meters apart. You don't walk down the middle of the street, you have a point man in front who is not the squad leader. When you get a chance to surprise the enemy in the open, either use automatic aimed fire or even better, pull the pin on hand grenades and let them cook off before you throw them.

Also the squad leader was more interested in a cigarette but should have a Zippo instead of matches.

BTW, nothing wrong with calling up the cannon cockers for support. You can target the enemy and not show yourself.

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RE: Who was Superior? US vs German Squads - 7/31/2020 4:10:41 PM   
rico21

 

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What is the superior?
The winner, isn't he?

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RE: Who was Superior? US vs German Squads - 8/1/2020 4:43:45 AM   
Shellshock


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According to Max Hastings in his book Armageddon, it was not an uncommon tactic for a German machine gunner covering an important line---like a road or rail track--at night to deliberately fire tracer rounds well above head height. This encouraged Allied soldiers who saw the streaks passing high above them to suppose it was safe to walk upright. Meanwhile, a second gunner without tracer would fire much closer to the ground, his bursts invisible until they caused men to fall.

Apparently, just one of many little subterfuges that enabled German units to punch above their weight even while being crushed.


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RE: Who was Superior? US vs German Squads - 8/1/2020 5:05:12 AM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shellshock

According to Max Hastings in his book Armageddon, it was not an uncommon tactic for a German machine gunner covering an important line---like a road or rail track--at night to deliberately fire tracer rounds well above head height. This encouraged Allied soldiers who saw the streaks passing high above them to suppose it was safe to walk upright. Meanwhile, a second gunner without tracer would fire much closer to the ground, his bursts invisible until they caused men to fall.

Apparently, just one of many little subterfuges that enabled German units to punch above their weight even while being crushed.


I remember reading about the German fire being too high - I never knew about the second machine gun.

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Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

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“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
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RE: Who was Superior? US vs German Squads - 8/1/2020 5:35:43 AM   
Shellshock


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe




I remember reading about the German fire being too high - I never knew about the second machine gun.


Also, according to Hastings, every German soldier was also taught the doctrine of so-called active defense. This required a focus not upon holding forward positions to the last man, but rather upon launching fierce counter-attacks while the attackers were still milling about in disarray upon newly captured positions. Especially towards the end of the war, on both Eastern and Western fronts the Germans would man their forward positions thinly, deploying their main forces further back, hopefully beyond the reach of artillery. When Allied attackers had made the initial punch, and secured German forward positions and then had given away to to physical and mental weariness or maybe relief after the surge of effort, the Germans would then counter punch, repeatedly evicted Allied troops from positions just won.

Allied commanders sought to drum into every unit the importance of digging in quickly on an objective but often easier said than done. Given the physical effort it took to excavate a hole that protected the whole body some soldiers were somewhat loathe to dig another when they might have to just walk away before even using it.


< Message edited by Shellshock -- 8/1/2020 5:36:14 AM >

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