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After Russia leaves the war - 7/27/2020 9:10:16 PM   
MVP7

 

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When I was offered the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk with a small slice of Poland and some pocket money as reward, I decided to reject the offer and wait for unconditional surrender instead, hoping to gain a slice of the Baltic and access to Black Sea at least.

While the amusing "Your forces in the East have been infested by Bolshevism!" -event alone was worth the treaty rejection, I was surprised that in the end the new border ended up being drawn at the exact same place as it would have been if I had signed the treaty. Furthermore the states that would have been made independent under treaty remained part of Russia.

So I was left thinking it would be nice if rejecting the treaty had some effect on the outcome. Maybe the "border" could be drawn so that it included at least the port of Odessa so that Central Powers could transport forces from there to Ottoman Black Sea ports even if they otherwise lack access to Black Sea coast (if Bulgaria remains neutral for example). Also leaving the planned United Baltic Duchy to Germany would make sense.

Even with the treaty signed it seems odd that Central Powers lose access to Black Sea and Baltic even though Historically they occupied the territories until 1918.

---

Another thing about the Russian exit from the war, whether by treaty or surrender, it seems to go way too smoothly for the Germans.

In SC:WW1 the entire Central army in Russia is transported to German and Austro-Hungarian territory in what strikes me as the most impressive logistical miracle in the history of warfare. When Russia quits everything in the East is done and every single Central unit can be on the other fronts by the end of next turn. You don't need to leave a single unit East of Trieste or Frankfurt unless you are feeling really paranoid about surprise landing operations. I wonder if anyone has ever failed to do the "Ludendorf" with the Russian exit working as it currently does?

Historically, while the treaty did define the borders as they become in the game, Germany still occupied huge swathes of Western Russia from Narva to Rostov. While the Russian exit did release a lot of forces to the Western front, still a large amount remained tied to the occupation of Russian territories. Revolts and guerrillas were constant issue in the occupied areas that were already strained by the wars and revolution.

---

Maybe instead of War in the East simply ending, with the hypothetical future borders of the peace treaty coming into force, the historical occupied zone would remain under German control but with heavily reduced Supply and MPP production and large number of possible Partisan spawns. Furthermore if the Central player simply abandoned the occupation zone, there could be some NM reducing events for the Central Powers (communist ideas spreading to West with the troops etc). If the partisans were allowed to run amok too much they could even trigger some proper communist army that could even threaten the Eastern Germany and Austria-Hungary.

All this would make the late game far more interesting than the current unlimited transfer of Eastern Front troops to the West. It would make the Russia-first strategy less of a no-brainer and balancing with the number of troops tied in the East and the escalation of partisan warfare would be an interesting dynamic.

The amount of partisan spawn hexes in Russia makes me wonder if something like this was initially planned?

---

Since this extensive changes to the Russian exit are probably off the table, it would at least be nice if all of the Central units in the "abandoned" areas of Eastern front didn't make it to the West on the very next turn. Maybe the units could be stuck in transit randomly for 1 to 4 turns (like if they were on a off-map naval route)? This would make the end of war against Russia feel a bit more natural, although a proper power gamer would still probably operate most of their units out of Russia a turn before the surrender...
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RE: After Russia leaves the war - 7/27/2020 10:00:16 PM   
Torplexed


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There was a thread about the Russian surrender event a few months back if you wish to read it.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4739763&mpage=1&key=Brest%2DLitovsk�

Your proposals sound good to me, but it might be a game engine limitation question. You can have partisans spawn on enemy territory you control, but not on friendly territory you control. However, I'll have to let someone more qualified on the subject answer that.

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RE: After Russia leaves the war - 7/27/2020 10:11:21 PM   
MVP7

 

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Watching some Gameplay video where treaty of Brest-Litovsk is accepted I see there's is a custom mechanic where Germany is encouraged to maintain a 6 to 12 unit presence in Poland after the Treaty. It's a decent abstraction of the the occupation forces but it does make me wonder if players generally accept the Brest-Litovsk treaty when its offered.

At least in my case the Central advance that triggered the treaty event was barely opposed and rejecting the treaty delayed the Russian surrender only by one turn. Not signing the treaty didn't give me the Ukrainian grain but honestly that seems small price to pay for avoiding the 6 to 12 unit occupation force. Is the benefit of Ukrainian grain really significant enough to warrant ever accepting the treaty rather than rejecting it? It's also a bit odd that rejecting the treaty and going for "full" victory actually leaves the Germany with a seemingly lesser victory with no occupation or satellite/buffer states.

Maybe rejecting the Brest-Litovsk treaty should actually bolster the Russian morale and army so much that Centrals Powers would actually have to advance to or near Moscow and remove the Bolshevist government from power before Russia's final surrender. It would make the treaty decision far more meaningful and provide at least some sort of explanation for why German military presence in the East is no longer required.

---

Edit. Thanks Torplexed. I'll read that thread.

< Message edited by MVP7 -- 7/27/2020 10:29:13 PM >

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RE: After Russia leaves the war - 7/27/2020 10:20:05 PM   
MVP7

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Torplexed
Your proposals sound good to me, but it might be a game engine limitation question. You can have partisans spawn on enemy territory you control, but not on friendly territory you control. However, I'll have to let someone more qualified on the subject answer that.

That's interesting. Does that mean the Serbian partisan spawns don't actually spawn partisans after the fall or Serbia?

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RE: After Russia leaves the war - 7/28/2020 1:31:24 AM   
MVP7

 

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I was reading the Strategy Guide for 1914 campaign and noticed that under the "Partisans" section it reads:

Note that capitals of major powers like France and Russia will also need
garrisoning after capture. Be sure to check for likely locations for Partisan
activity...


So it does indeed seem like there were originally some plans for a deeper occupation mechanics for Russian territories. I don't think France currently has partisan hexes either.

I do hope that these occupation mechanics are added in some future update. Currently the campaign feels pretty much done as soon as either surrenders and having to deal with a revolt getting out of hand sounds very interesting to me at least .

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RE: After Russia leaves the war - 7/28/2020 7:56:14 PM   
Hartmann

 

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Something definitively has to be done with the Russian surrender at 0 NM when you don't send Lenin and don't get the Brest-Litowsk treaty option (or decline it). Germany only getting Warsaw (And A-H zilch) feels like this is just a path no one considered fleshing out yet.

I know you don't have to garrison anything, but there really should be something more worthwhile to having Russia collapse. Right now, all players chosing this path out of curiosity are bound to be severely disappointed by the outcome. I find it especially troubling that A-H doesn't get anything out of this at all. By the time Russia surrenders, they usually have occupied the whole of Ukraine with almost no opposition left (and therefore little remaining manpower comittment except for some partisan duty), which nets them tons of MPP and NM per turn. This is all lost when Russia collapses with absolutely zilch profit.

I actually don't know the solution to the problem, but *some* twist should be added here to make this more fun. MPV7 has offered some interesting ideas IMO. I mean: What would a player want to achieve by not sending Lenin/not accepting the treaty? It would have something to do with having even more leverage on those guys later - keeping more zones occupied, getting more reparations out of it etc. It should be made risky and harder to achieve, but worthwhile. The problem with Russia surrendering just one turn later after treaty rejection can easily be solved by boosting their resolve (NM gain) when the treaty is rejected.

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RE: After Russia leaves the war - 7/29/2020 10:59:13 AM   
BillRunacre

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MVP7

quote:

ORIGINAL: Torplexed
Your proposals sound good to me, but it might be a game engine limitation question. You can have partisans spawn on enemy territory you control, but not on friendly territory you control. However, I'll have to let someone more qualified on the subject answer that.

That's interesting. Does that mean the Serbian partisan spawns don't actually spawn partisans after the fall or Serbia?


They do, as Serbia would be enemy territory the Central Powers control.

Friendly territory means anywhere that is part of a country that is fighting on your side.

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RE: After Russia leaves the war - 7/29/2020 11:00:16 AM   
BillRunacre

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MVP7

I don't think France currently has partisan hexes either.


Paris is a Partisan hex.

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RE: After Russia leaves the war - 7/29/2020 11:06:31 AM   
BillRunacre

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MVP7

At least in my case the Central advance that triggered the treaty event was barely opposed and rejecting the treaty delayed the Russian surrender only by one turn... Maybe rejecting the Brest-Litovsk treaty should actually bolster the Russian morale and army so much that Centrals Powers would actually have to advance to or near Moscow and remove the Bolshevist government from power before Russia's final surrender. It would make the treaty decision far more meaningful and provide at least some sort of explanation for why German military presence in the East is no longer required.



The Decision for the treaty is triggered when Russia's National Morale is below 12% and rejecting the treaty does boost Russian National Morale by 6,000 points, but it may be that the country was so close to surrender that this didn't have a chance to kick in in time in your game, perhaps if some high value objectives were taken that turn?


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RE: After Russia leaves the war - 7/29/2020 3:32:19 PM   
BillRunacre

 

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I think that increasing Russia's NM boost and making it so that Russia will then surrender in the normal way (i.e. via capital capture) means that the Central Powers will gain plunder if they continue the invasion, but at the price of having to continue to do so while also facing Partisan activity.

< Message edited by BillRunacre -- 7/29/2020 3:34:47 PM >


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RE: After Russia leaves the war - 7/29/2020 3:48:57 PM   
MVP7

 

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Thanks Bill!

So theoretically Russian occupation (without the entire county being placed under Central control) could be done by changing the occupation zone into belonging to an Entente aligned "Occupied Russia" that the Central Powers would be occupying. The non-occupied part of Russia would still be part of Russian and inaccessible.

Somehow I had missed the Paris partisan hex. Is there currently any kind of events or chances for further escalation in the occupied France?

Regarding the Russia's ultimate surrender after treaty rejection: In my campaign (and in some that I have watched on youtube) the surrender usually seems to happen after a major breakthrough with the German and Austro-Hungarian forces advancing rabidly into the Baltic and the Ukraine so the Russian NM might well have been at (or below) zero by the end of my turn preceding the treaty event. By the time my next turn started the Russian morale was already at only little over 1000 even though they had had the 6000 point bonus on their turn (assuming they actually got the correct sized bonus).

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RE: After Russia leaves the war - 7/29/2020 3:57:39 PM   
MVP7

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

I think that increasing Russia's NM boost and making it so that Russia will then surrender in the normal way (i.e. via capital capture) means that the Central Powers will gain plunder if they continue the invasion, but at the price of having to continue to do so while also facing Partisan activity.


That sound good! Advancing to Moscow should definitely be interesting challenge with the partisans, Bolshevism and newly raised Russian units hindering the advance.

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RE: After Russia leaves the war - 7/30/2020 9:54:56 AM   
BillRunacre

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MVP7

Somehow I had missed the Paris partisan hex. Is there currently any kind of events or chances for further escalation in the occupied France?



Just the Paris hex. It's a tricky one but I imagine there would have been few Frenchmen left in occupied areas to launch a resistance given their extremely heavy casualties in WWI, i.e. they fought very hard to defend their soil. WW2 is a bit different.

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RE: After Russia leaves the war - 7/30/2020 9:56:07 AM   
BillRunacre

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MVP7

quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

I think that increasing Russia's NM boost and making it so that Russia will then surrender in the normal way (i.e. via capital capture) means that the Central Powers will gain plunder if they continue the invasion, but at the price of having to continue to do so while also facing Partisan activity.


That sound good! Advancing to Moscow should definitely be interesting challenge with the partisans, Bolshevism and newly raised Russian units hindering the advance.


Hopefully the changes I've implemented will make things tougher but also potentially more profitable when saying no to the treaty. It will still remain probably more sensible to sign the treaty, but if saying no is more interesting then that is of course for the better too.

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RE: After Russia leaves the war - 8/2/2020 5:19:42 PM   
FOARP

 

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Couldn’t Ukraine be made occupied enemy territory for the Central Powers? For example, the Ukraine could be made independent, but occupied by the CP with partisan hexes at Kiev and elsewhere. The Crimea really ought to be similarly treated - the plan was to make it a CP base.

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RE: After Russia leaves the war - 8/4/2020 6:38:09 PM   
Hartmann

 

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The NM boost in this case should to be so big as to prevent them from "withdrawing" because of collapse - as this means no plunder at all for CP. OR the Central Powers should get said plunder even if Russia "just" collapses - could this be programmed in?

The biggest issue IMO is what happens if no treaty is offered at all. It seems this is what happens when Lenin is not sent. In this case it seems Russia always collapses before their capital is taken and CP get nothing (apart from Germany getting the Warsaw area). There's no Baltic states, Ukraine etc too in that case.

It feels like Russia saying:

"Guys, seems I lose, that wasn't the plan. Thus I don't want to play with you anymore. I quit and you have to move all your stuff out. Sorry, but there's no two ways about it. ... Hey, don't look so depressed, I leave you Warsaw, ok?"

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RE: After Russia leaves the war - 8/12/2020 8:21:51 PM   
Xsillione

 

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So if i understand the new patch correctly, currently the russian surrender has three+one routes:

1. Sent lenin and accepted brest-litovsk: minor gains and new nations including ukraine, but need to keep 6-12 units near the russian border.
2. Sent lenin and not accepted brest-litovks: no surrender, only capital capture and total occupation, russia fights to the end, but huge gain with the total occupation. (and a big pain for the partisans)
3. Not sent lenin, no brest-litovsk, russia surrenders and gives up less than brest-litovsk, no new nations, but no need to keep units at the border.
+1: No lenin, but still captures petergrad before collapse: total occupation, like two.

Should not 3 much closer to 1, instead of a totally different and barely worth action?

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RE: After Russia leaves the war - 8/18/2020 6:43:00 PM   
Hartmann

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Xsillione

So if i understand the new patch correctly, currently the russian surrender has three+one routes:

1. Sent lenin and accepted brest-litovsk: minor gains and new nations including ukraine, but need to keep 6-12 units near the russian border.
2. Sent lenin and not accepted brest-litovks: no surrender, only capital capture and total occupation, russia fights to the end, but huge gain with the total occupation. (and a big pain for the partisans)
3. Not sent lenin, no brest-litovsk, russia surrenders and gives up less than brest-litovsk, no new nations, but no need to keep units at the border.
+1: No lenin, but still captures petergrad before collapse: total occupation, like two.

Should not 3 much closer to 1, instead of a totally different and barely worth action?


That's exactly what I meant all the time. #3 (no lenin=no treaty offered) needs to be worked on somehow, especially as they always collapse way before St. Petersburg can be taken.

I also think that Russia collapsing should probably always lead to new nations arising.

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