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Private Soil Dematelization and Biofuel Plant assets.

 
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Private Soil Dematelization and Biofuel Plant assets. - 7/19/2020 10:47:57 PM   
Hazard151

 

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Exactly as written in the subject line, enabling the private economy to produce metals, rare metals and fuel independent of nearby deposits. These should probably be rural assets to avoid claiming the slot for the asset in the city from the major regime, expensive for the private economy to run in terms of manpower and tithe only minimal resources to the regime. It should also be impossible to nationalize.

Its benefit would be in how it facilitates the luxury economy of the city they are attached to.
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RE: Private Soil Dematelization and Biofuel Plant assets. - 7/20/2020 6:46:48 AM   
demiare

 

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I would agree only if they would NOT provide any resources to you.

Metal & Oil management is a huge part of mid-game, no need to simplify it with assist from private economy.

(in reply to Hazard151)
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RE: Private Soil Dematelization and Biofuel Plant assets. - 7/20/2020 12:00:21 PM   
Hazard151

 

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All private assets that produce a resource tithe a fraction of their production to you as taxes. While it certainly shouldn't be a major factor in your economy, I see no reason to break with that.

(in reply to demiare)
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RE: Private Soil Dematelization and Biofuel Plant assets. - 7/20/2020 2:14:58 PM   
zgrssd

 

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Both are balanced on their Upkeep cost. The workers are secondary compared to food and energy costs.
Private assets do not have (or you do not pay) for the Upkeep cost. In fact you do not pay for the workers either.

The only way I could see them balanced, is if they can only be build in the city. That way they at least take something important from you (the secure City Hex spot) wich incentivises you to Nationalize them instead of just building one in the city.

Having them run cost free and be placed outside the city? That is you trying to eat your cake and have it too.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 7/20/2020 2:15:51 PM >

(in reply to Hazard151)
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RE: Private Soil Dematelization and Biofuel Plant assets. - 7/20/2020 5:31:49 PM   
Hazard151

 

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Actually, they do demand something useful from you; manpower that could be dedicated to QOL impacting private assets, or public workforce. And there's a reason I said they needed to be expensive in terms of manpower.

The argument that it could occupy the city hex slot is just as valid for privately owned farms, and while a farm build inside the city occupies the hex slot for farms, farms build outside the city do not and still provide a tithe of food against a cost of the workforce of an equal size public asset and taxes through the production of private funds. And all they cost is workforce. The private economy doesn't even draw on a water or energy supply for the farms it has, and water can otherwise be a quite substantial resource cost.


I mean, let's look at farms, domed and open, and if they are public or private assets. We'll stick with level 3 assets, as the differences between public and private assets aren't that different across the levels and it's the highest level for private assets.

A public level 3 open farm demands 3 750 water, 1 900 workers for upkeep, 19 000 workers for production for a total workforce of 20 900 and produces 900 food.
A public level 3 domed farm demands 750 water, 1 900 workers for upkeep, 15 700 workers for production for a total workforce of 17 600, 56 energy and produces 900 food.
A private level 3 open farm demands 1 800 population for upkeep, 37 400 population for production for a total workforce of 39 200 and produces 30 pop credits, 100 food and 900 private food.
A private level 3 domed farm demands 1 800 population for upkeep, 37 400 population for production for a total workforce of 39 200 and produces 30 pop credits, 100 food and 900 private food.

So basically, private farms demand about twice the workforce of a public asset to produce about 11% more total materials, and you only have access to that 11% of materials.

If we presume for a moment you have to draw your water from a lake, that costs no manpower to run up to 5 000 water per turn per zone connected with that water source. If we presume you are using a water purifier to supply your water, it produces water at a rate of 2 water per worker at level 1, and 5 water per worker at max level. Not per worker population token, per worker. Windtraps produce at 1/10th that rate but cost no energy. Ice mining is a limited resource unless you have a glacier or permanent snowscape to tap into but produces at about half the rate of a purification plant. Rock dehydration plants at about 1 water per 4 workers at level 1, or 1 water per 2 workers at the highest level.

Energy demand for the whole set up is basically negligible, an equal level solar power field could supply it for less than 3000 workers in total even at its maximum level of 5.


Do you mean to tell me, zgrssd, that private asset food production is overpowered? Because looking at the numbers, it's actually less manpower efficient than using public assets to do the same through emergency food supplies, even accounting for the extra manpower that would be necessary to supply those public assets.

< Message edited by Hazard151 -- 7/20/2020 5:34:50 PM >

(in reply to zgrssd)
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RE: Private Soil Dematelization and Biofuel Plant assets. - 7/20/2020 10:10:42 PM   
demiare

 

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Joined: 6/20/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hazard151

Actually, they do demand something useful from you; manpower that could be dedicated to QOL impacting private assets


While instead you really want them NOT increasing your QOL.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hazard151
The argument that it could occupy the city hex slot is just as valid for privately owned farms


Farms are very cheap building that constructed instantly. Demetalizer and Hydroponic are quite expensive and slow to build (in case of soil demetalizer). Do you seriously believe that your private economy will be allowed to keep hi-tech components for their own use?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hazard151
So basically, private farms demand about twice the workforce of a public asset


You are forgetting small fact that workers of public farms are receiving their salaries from national budget, while in private economy they're working for themselves PLUS paying taxes to you. Depending on your government ethics you may have a issues with income until late game.

When you will include salaries you will understand that private and public farm have +/- similar output.

Oh, and feeding public workers ALSO your task. Don't forget this too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hazard151
Ice mining is a limited resource unless you have a glacier or permanent snowscape to tap into but produces at about half the rate of a purification plant.


Ice mines will produce MORE. You're forget that they have their own tech to boost water output in addition to tech boosting every mine.

< Message edited by demiare -- 7/20/2020 10:11:33 PM >

(in reply to Hazard151)
Post #: 6
RE: Private Soil Dematelization and Biofuel Plant assets. - 7/21/2020 11:45:11 AM   
Hazard151

 

Posts: 89
Joined: 6/15/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare
While instead you really want them NOT increasing your QOL.


I've found it quite useful, actually. And it's not as if you can't draw from the private economy workforce if you have to.

quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare
Farms are very cheap building that constructed instantly. Demetalizer and Hydroponic are quite expensive and slow to build (in case of soil demetalizer). Do you seriously believe that your private economy will be allowed to keep hi-tech components for their own use?


Yes actualy. Aside the fact that that's literally what's happening in the back end trading system if you check the reports, building an economy where you have a surplus production of high tech components isn't that hard once you hit high tech component production capacity. Admittedly you first need to hit that, but it also takes a fair bit to develop a demand for high tech components that isn't construction.

And if a soil demetalizer is expensive (and it is), that's an argument to make the private asset equivalent also very expensive in credits. It's not as if all private assets cost the same in credits.

quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare
You are forgetting small fact that workers of public farms are receiving their salaries from national budget, while in private economy they're working for themselves PLUS paying taxes to you. Depending on your government ethics you may have a issues with income until late game.


Public workers also pay taxes on the basis of their income. One of the first things I do when I get in game is dropping worker salaries to 0.002 credits instead of 0.005 credits. It'll do for most purposes, generally improves worker happiness and will not eat your entire credits budget.

quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare
When you will include salaries you will understand that private and public farm have +/- similar output.


Given that manpower is a fairly constraining feature for expanding your economy and military, I disagree. The fact that it costs double the manpower for at best a minimal production boost is a pretty strong constraint.

quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare
Oh, and feeding public workers ALSO your task. Don't forget this too.


At level 3 a private farming asset produces 100 public food and 900 private food while costing about 400 private food, leaving 500 private food for the private economy and 100 food for the public economy. It's 60% efficient as a result. A level 3 farming asset produces 900 public food and costs about 200 food, so it's about 78% efficient.

That's a pretty big difference.

quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare
Ice mines will produce MORE. You're forget that they have their own tech to boost water output in addition to tech boosting every mine.


Dealing with the variable production rates depending on applied technologies is a pain so I stuck to the static production figures written in game, which are the baseline production figures before they are modified by things like relations and technology boosts.

It just simplified things.

It also does not change the fact that ice mines are mining finite resources unless you are mining a glacier or eternal snowscape. While a borealis class planet would guarantee the existence of such a thing, other planets don't and you need to build new mines over time, costing metals and machinery in the process.

(in reply to demiare)
Post #: 7
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