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Battle of Britain - 7/18/2020 7:05:44 PM   
MickM2

 

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My ambition from this post is to settle once and for all - and it is an ambitious ambition. Which was better Spitfire or 109? Hurricanes can also be considered but not 110s. This should be considered without radio direction finding, Dowding, tactics, Spanish civil war experience and solely on the aircraft performance. Which one was best?
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RE: Battle of Britain - 7/18/2020 7:30:08 PM   
RangerJoe


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It depends upon what you mean by best.

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RE: Battle of Britain - 7/18/2020 7:31:01 PM   
Shellshock


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MickM2

My ambition from this post is to settle once and for all - and it is an ambitious ambition.

Good luck.

If you do settle it, maybe you can move on to settle the eternal Yamato class vs Iowa class debate.

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RE: Battle of Britain - 7/18/2020 7:41:47 PM   
MickM2

 

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Best in its widest terms.

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RE: Battle of Britain - 7/18/2020 7:58:03 PM   
RangerJoe


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At what point in the development?

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RE: Battle of Britain - 7/18/2020 8:08:48 PM   
MickM2

 

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Battle of Britain. And I don't mean that in a disrespectful way. Britain was on its knees and the crux between us falling I believe was the Spitfire but if on a 1 on 1 the 109 was better then I will change my opinion.

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RE: Battle of Britain - 7/18/2020 8:38:58 PM   
RangerJoe


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Are you referring to a twisting dogfight on a horizontal plane or a vertical one with the dive?

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RE: Battle of Britain - 7/18/2020 8:48:27 PM   
MickM2

 

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Maybe I should have asked this question a few gears ago when the veterans were still alive.

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RE: Battle of Britain - 7/18/2020 9:05:40 PM   
RangerJoe


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Well, if the Hurricane or Spitfire tried to dive after a Bf109, the 109 would get away since the Merlin engine would die until a different carb was installed. But in a twisting, turning dogfight on a horizontal plane, the Spitfire could out turn a 109 but that also depended upon the pilot. For some reason, Douglas Bader was able to turn very tight without the G-forces pulling the blood to his legs. The Hurricane developed into other aircraft but it was a more stable gun platform and easier to fly.

But then again, it also depended upon the propeller.

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RE: Battle of Britain - 7/18/2020 9:11:34 PM   
MickM2

 

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Wow it gets complicated for my small brain.

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RE: Battle of Britain - 7/18/2020 9:17:26 PM   
MickM2

 

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A quarter of the pilots were from overseas. And they all contributed so there are probably many other factors to the final battle than the Spitfire.

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RE: Battle of Britain - 7/18/2020 9:35:47 PM   
RangerJoe


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If you want to know what may have been the difference between the RAF winning or losing the Battle of Britain, here is "Bloody Foreigners" on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptijNcDanVw

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RE: Battle of Britain - 7/18/2020 9:41:18 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MickM2

..... so there are probably many other factors to the final battle than the Spitfire.
warspite1

The performance of the Spitfire and Hurricane vs the Bf-109 were of course important to the final outcome of the battle, but yes, there were a great many factors that went into the ultimate result.

But if you want, as stated, a comparison between the Spitfire I and the Bf-109-E1/4 to know which was the better aircraft then you are best off doing just that. Don't bring the wider battle into it (as indeed you suggested at the outset).


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RE: Battle of Britain - 7/18/2020 9:42:26 PM   
MickM2

 

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Yay well done the Poles. Dziekuje ci.

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RE: Battle of Britain - 7/18/2020 10:47:32 PM   
RangerJoe


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The next time you hoist a pint, say "Na zdrowie" and remember them.

But they were also flying Hurricanes. They shot down a lot more 109s than they lost. The difference was their training.

There is also a movie "Hurricane" about them.

There is also a movie about a "sergeant Wojtek" in the Polish Army. He enjoyed his wine and beer. He was excellent on guard duty as well. He was NOT Polish. After the war, he was a hit with the children in one Scottish village. But then, well, you could kinda, sorta, say that he went to jail.


_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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RE: Battle of Britain - 7/18/2020 11:46:21 PM   
MrsWargamer


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I think the deciding detail was they let up on the airfields.

The Spitfire was great, didn't need to worry about range. The 109 was great, but it had to worry about range. Not easy to dogfight when you have no fuel.
The spitfire just had to intercept and shoot **** down. The 109 had to protect the bombers. Mission requirements impact how you fight. If they had not switched to London, I dare say it wouldn't have mattered very soon how great the spitfire was.

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RE: Battle of Britain - 7/19/2020 12:37:26 AM   
IslandInland


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MickM2

My ambition from this post is to settle once and for all - and it is an ambitious ambition. Which was better Spitfire or 109? Hurricanes can also be considered but not 110s. This should be considered without radio direction finding, Dowding, tactics, Spanish civil war experience and solely on the aircraft performance. Which one was best?


Spitfire.

The Few won.


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I saw generals create imaginary "masses of manoeuvre" with a crayon and dispose of enemy concentrations, that were on the ground and on the map, with an eraser. Who was I to criticise them, hero as I was of a hundred "Chinagraph wars" of make-believe?

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RE: Battle of Britain - 7/19/2020 12:39:22 AM   
IslandInland


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The next time you hoist a pint, say "Na zdrowie" and remember them.

But they were also flying Hurricanes. They shot down a lot more 109s than they lost. The difference was their training.

There is also a movie "Hurricane" about them.

There is also a movie about a "sergeant Wojtek" in the Polish Army. He enjoyed his wine and beer. He was excellent on guard duty as well. He was NOT Polish. After the war, he was a hit with the children in one Scottish village. But then, well, you could kinda, sorta, say that he went to jail.



^

Also this.

Hurricanes outnumbered Spits.

The Battle of Britain was won by pilots not planes.



_____________________________

I saw generals create imaginary "masses of manoeuvre" with a crayon and dispose of enemy concentrations, that were on the ground and on the map, with an eraser. Who was I to criticise them, hero as I was of a hundred "Chinagraph wars" of make-believe?

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RE: Battle of Britain - 7/19/2020 12:50:59 AM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IslandInland

quote:

ORIGINAL: MickM2

My ambition from this post is to settle once and for all - and it is an ambitious ambition. Which was better Spitfire or 109? Hurricanes can also be considered but not 110s. This should be considered without radio direction finding, Dowding, tactics, Spanish civil war experience and solely on the aircraft performance. Which one was best?


Spitfire.

The Few won.


The Spitfire and the Hurricane.

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Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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Post #: 19
RE: Battle of Britain - 7/19/2020 12:53:19 AM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IslandInland

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The next time you hoist a pint, say "Na zdrowie" and remember them.

But they were also flying Hurricanes. They shot down a lot more 109s than they lost. The difference was their training.

There is also a movie "Hurricane" about them.

There is also a movie about a "sergeant Wojtek" in the Polish Army. He enjoyed his wine and beer. He was excellent on guard duty as well. He was NOT Polish. After the war, he was a hit with the children in one Scottish village. But then, well, you could kinda, sorta, say that he went to jail.


^

Also this.

Hurricanes outnumbered Spits.

The Battle of Britain was won by pilots not planes.


It was more than just the pilots. The air crew, the ground support, the command echelon, the production people, and others. But it was a combination of the right people and the right equipment.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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Post #: 20
RE: Battle of Britain - 7/19/2020 2:38:37 AM   
IslandInland


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: IslandInland

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The next time you hoist a pint, say "Na zdrowie" and remember them.

But they were also flying Hurricanes. They shot down a lot more 109s than they lost. The difference was their training.

There is also a movie "Hurricane" about them.

There is also a movie about a "sergeant Wojtek" in the Polish Army. He enjoyed his wine and beer. He was excellent on guard duty as well. He was NOT Polish. After the war, he was a hit with the children in one Scottish village. But then, well, you could kinda, sorta, say that he went to jail.


^

Also this.

Hurricanes outnumbered Spits.

The Battle of Britain was won by pilots not planes.


It was more than just the pilots. The air crew, the ground support, the command echelon, the production people, and others. But it was a combination of the right people and the right equipment.


Yes, agreed.



_____________________________

I saw generals create imaginary "masses of manoeuvre" with a crayon and dispose of enemy concentrations, that were on the ground and on the map, with an eraser. Who was I to criticise them, hero as I was of a hundred "Chinagraph wars" of make-believe?

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Post #: 21
RE: Battle of Britain - 7/19/2020 6:27:55 AM   
stevemk1a


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Here's a link to a Royal Air Force Museum video that compares the two aircraft:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HY9DAD0BGPM


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RE: Battle of Britain - 7/19/2020 7:19:15 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: IslandInland

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The next time you hoist a pint, say "Na zdrowie" and remember them.

But they were also flying Hurricanes. They shot down a lot more 109s than they lost. The difference was their training.

There is also a movie "Hurricane" about them.

There is also a movie about a "sergeant Wojtek" in the Polish Army. He enjoyed his wine and beer. He was excellent on guard duty as well. He was NOT Polish. After the war, he was a hit with the children in one Scottish village. But then, well, you could kinda, sorta, say that he went to jail.


^

Also this.

Hurricanes outnumbered Spits.

The Battle of Britain was won by pilots not planes.


It was more than just the pilots. The air crew, the ground support, the command echelon, the production people, and others. But it was a combination of the right people and the right equipment.
warspite1

Stephen Bungay (The Most Dangerous Enemy) summed it up rather well:

It is ironic that the British and the Germans swapped the characteristics they commonly attribute to each other

He then lists five examples which I won't repeat as they are frankly too long - but include Leadership, carefully prepared, but flexible, system, discipline and control, team work, determination and ruthlessness. I would recommend this book to anyone interested in the battle.

As for the Poles, it is not an Untold Story - I've read four books on the Battle of Britain, seen two films and untold numbers of documentaries. The contribution of the Poles, Czechs, and all those who took part from within the Commonwealth, and from without, is never covered up, marginalised or in anyway downgraded. Dowding is on record as stating the battle may not have turned out the same without them. I've posted previously on these forums pictures of the tasteful Polish war memorial in North London and do so again here.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 7/19/2020 7:21:58 AM >


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RE: Battle of Britain - 7/19/2020 7:49:42 AM   
Simulacra53


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The best fighter during the “Battle of Britain“ was the channel, with the RN being a close second.

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RE: Battle of Britain - 7/19/2020 8:42:42 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Simulacra53

The best fighter during the “Battle of Britain“ was the channel, with the RN being a close second.
warspite1

What does that mean?


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RE: Battle of Britain - 7/19/2020 2:17:44 PM   
rico21

 

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"The French forget, from generation to generation, what implacable enemies we can be."
Edward Spears on the eve of the French surrender in June 1940.
These poor Nazis had no chance!

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RE: Battle of Britain - 7/19/2020 6:11:53 PM   
ezzler

 

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There has not been a definitive winner between the two, as there is no winner.
Both aircraft were their nation's front line fighter in 1940.
And both aircraft were still in their nation's front line fighter pool in 1945.

Are there any other single engine fighter planes that can claim that distinction?

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RE: Battle of Britain - 7/20/2020 10:20:24 AM   
Pvt_Grunt

 

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Also, the model becomes a factor

Spitfire came in 24 variations, the most common being Mark V (369 mph) and Mark IX.(404 mph) Wikipedia During the Battle of Britain mostly Mark I was used.

Similarly the Me 109 had many variants and improvements over its' 6 years of production.

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RE: Battle of Britain - 7/20/2020 10:33:35 AM   
Zorch

 

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Rafe McCawley and Danny Walker were the RAF's best fighters in the Battle of Britain.

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RE: Battle of Britain - 7/20/2020 10:58:19 AM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Rafe McCawley and Danny Walker were the RAF's best fighters in the Battle of Britain.


Please define what you mean by best.

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Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

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“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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