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Bottlenecks (Can someone help explain!)

 
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Bottlenecks (Can someone help explain!) - 7/12/2020 3:29:29 AM   
mroyer

 

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I am thoroughly confused about how to interpret the bottleneck information of the logistics system. I think I have a handle on truck points (and maybe truck action points), but what do the percentages and parenthetical percentages in the bottleneck diagram indicate?

In the following figure, there is a private transportation hub in Albion (producing 400 truck points and 50 truck action points) and a truck station I in Marella (producing 752 truck points and 94 action points). There are no traffic signs - everything is flowing as per default.

I am at a loss to explain why the line is black(!) coming out of Albion (the zone capital), then gets a little better to blue, then goes black again on the way to Falster that for an inexplicable reason becomes green again west of Falster (Falster has no transport facility).

Any thoughts or explanations to hand-hold me to an epiphany would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
-Mark R.





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RE: Bottlenecks (Can someone help explain!) - 7/12/2020 3:49:05 AM   
Vormithrax

 

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this is almost always due to mobile units pulling supplies from the hexes via their built-in logistics. You can see the path they are using via very faint dotted lines that lead from the road to their unit location. Their built-in logistic trucks are driving via those dotted lines to the closest point in the road network and pulling their supplies out. This causes those hexes to deplete their available logistic points . All three of your black sections have these supply draws happening in your screenshot. It's confusing because the supply does not act like water and 'fill-in' to the empty sections with points from other hexes nearby. The points are set at the beginning of the turn during upkeep and points are 'spent' in a specific order for various game assets. When you have supply being taken out of hexes for vehicles off the road network nearby you get these 'holes' if you don't have enough points to satisfy the demand.

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RE: Bottlenecks (Can someone help explain!) - 7/12/2020 3:50:49 AM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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Not an expert, but some thoughts

- you should immediately nationalize Albion's trucks as this is where your SHQ is. Simply too much traffic for so few trucks
- you need to put traffic lights to reduce the # of trucks going to Opporg, Piluziel and Sego. You are wasting truck points on those lines
- you should put a truck station at Falster

- it might be better to put a truck station at Lillard and a supply base at Marella; I don't think trucks at Marella are helping a lot, what you need is to extend the range of your SHQ trucks
- if still bottlenecks, then expand Albion's to level 2 truck


_____________________________


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RE: Bottlenecks (Can someone help explain!) - 7/12/2020 4:18:19 AM   
lloydster4

 

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At the most basic level, this shows that you need more logistics capacity on the road between Albion and Falster. The situation is more nuanced than that, but the solution is still simple.

The bottlenecks overlay is very useful for this kind of "big-picture" thinking. You look at what hexes have black boxes in them, and you add more LP to those hexes. (Note that the boxes are more helpful to look at than the lines between them). To get a clearer sense of what is actually happening, and why, it's better to use the Initial Points, Currents Points, Used Points, and Preview Points overlays.

Building a perfect, optimized logistics network takes a lot of effort. Building a functional one is simple.

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RE: Bottlenecks (Can someone help explain!) - 7/12/2020 7:16:35 AM   
Tomn

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mroyer
I am at a loss to explain why the line is black(!) coming out of Albion (the zone capital), then gets a little better to blue, then goes black again on the way to Falster that for an inexplicable reason becomes green again west of Falster (Falster has no transport facility).

Any thoughts or explanations to hand-hold me to an epiphany would be greatly appreciated.


As it happens, I've actually written a slightly tongue-in-cheek but still accurate analogy for logistical capacity that might help you understand why bottlenecks work the way they do. The short version is, logistical capacity doesn't work by producing a set of trucks at the base and then driving them down the road until they run out. For your specific situation, your issue is simply insufficient logistical capacity, to be fixed by upgrading your logistical assets or building more.

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RE: Bottlenecks (Can someone help explain!) - 7/12/2020 1:11:50 PM   
mroyer

 

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Thanks to everyone for helpful discussion above.


In the interest of focussing in on what the numbers mean, I've created and analyzed a different, very simple situation (image below). In the situation, it is the start of round 2. In round 1 I moved out two units and build a single dirt road just to the west of the capital city so there is a split with the original road there.

Questions in italics.

Initial - I think this display is clear. These numbers are truck (logistic?) points in each hex. There is a private Transportation Hub I in the city generating 400 truck points and 50 truck action points. We can see the 400 points entering Hex 1 along the road from the city. Normally, those would divide 200 each way (north to Hex 2 and south-west to Hex 3) where the road splits. Because of the new "pull" system, 40 are pulled north and 12 are pulled southwest leaving Hex 1 with 348 (400-(40+12)) to split evenly.

This gives the numbers we see:
Hex 2: 214 truck points = (348/2) + 40 pulled
Hex 3: 186 truck points = (348/2) + 12 pulled

Do "logistic points" = truck points + rail points (there is 0 rail points in this situation however)?

Used - This is a nice display of how many truck points are used in each hex.

In addition to military units, what/who else uses logistic capacity (workers? assets? etc...)?

Current - This is another nice display of how many truck points are left in each hex after consumption. The only hex showing any consumption is Hex 1 (the road hex to the west of the city) where the 52 (40+12) truck points are pulled and 5 more are used. Every other hex is still at full capacity.

Hex 2: 343 truck points = 400 - 40 (pulled north) - 12 (pulled south-west) - 5

Why are the additional 5 truck points being used to the south-west?
Why are 40 points being pulled to the north - I think the infantry only needs 20 supply?
Why are 12 points being pulled to the south-west - I think the armor only needs 7 supply?

The infantry unit needs 20 supplies (20 food only)
The armored unit needs 7 supply (6 food + 1 fuel)
400 bikers use 4 food + 0.4 fuel
20 buggies use 2 food + 0.6 fuel


Bottlenecks - Bottlenecks percentages appear to be the percentage of unused truck points relative to initial truck points.
Hex 1: 86% = 100 x (400 / 343 )

What does the parenthetical percentage in each hex mean?

Preview - This is simply the number of truck points in each hex that I can expect next round if the situation doesn't change from current.



How to truck action points play into this?

(Sorry for poor image quality - I had to reduce quality to get it under 200KB file-size limit of these forums.)

Thanks for everyone's help!
-Mark R.




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< Message edited by mroyer -- 7/12/2020 1:20:14 PM >

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RE: Bottlenecks (Can someone help explain!) - 7/12/2020 1:12:03 PM   
mroyer

 

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Traffic signs display for Hex 1.




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RE: Bottlenecks (Can someone help explain!) - 7/12/2020 1:46:14 PM   
mroyer

 

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The change list from Vic on beta 7 might explain why too much is being pulled for supply - I was using beta 6.

Changelist to v1.04-beta7
...
-Fixed double food consumption glitch caused in beta6
...

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RE: Bottlenecks (Can someone help explain!) - 7/13/2020 10:46:24 AM   
Tomn

 

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Can't answer everything with a guarantee of accuracy (though I think the answers are floating around somewhere on the forums), but I'll do what I can.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mroyer
Do "logistic points" = truck points + rail points (there is 0 rail points in this situation however)?


Kinda. If there's rail and truck points going to the same location, then yeah, anything needed at the end of the line can use either rail or truck points - makes no difference. The tricky bit I'm a bit uncertain about is whether operational logistics (we'll talk about that in a minute) can draw off rail lines or whether it needs to draw from railheads and rail stations - the manual claims they can draw off rail lines, but I've had respected folks here say that a station or railhead is necessary to "disseminate" supplies, meaning that if you had a long rail line going through a region, units would be unable to draw supply from that rail line unless you head a truck station set up at the end of the line with a road going out to your units. Not certain which is true, haven't tested myself in any detail.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mroyer
Used - This is a nice display of how many truck points are used in each hex.


Not entirely! You're right that the thick white line shows used logistical capacity, but the dotted green lines show operational logistics instead. Basically, all units have their own internal logistical capacity which they'll use to draw off your logistical network if they're close enough. The Used screen helps you work out which units are drawing off how much supply and where - handy if you're trying to determine which units you should pull back from the front to reduce the logistical stress in the region, or trying to get a better handle on how many more troops you can fit in the front.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mroyer
In addition to military units, what/who else uses logistic capacity (workers? assets? etc...)?


So assets don't USE logistical capacity, but they NEED it - a public asset needs 100xasset level of logistical capacity to function at full power, otherwise it produces less than that, and a private asset needs half that. The thing is, all they need is for the logistical capacity to be available - they don't actually use up the capacity or cause a draw on your network.

What DOES get used, however, are zone transfers to and from the SHQ. Every city in every zone is going to be shuttling surplus resources back to the SHQ for storage while requesting deliveries of shortages that they can't fulfill on their own - particularly noteworthy if you order a lot of construction at once and the zone requesting supplies from the SHQ tanks your logistical capacity there.

It's also important to note that logistical capacity doesn't just move supplies - it can move troops, too. If you raise a new formation in a given spot, you need to have not just enough supplies and recruits in the bank to raise the formation, but enough logistical capacity to actually get those supplies from the SHQ to wherever you want to raise the new formation as well. Replacement units and reinforcements require logistical capacity, and if you have enough spare capacity you can teleport units from one end of your empire to another by using strategic transfers - a very good reason to ensure plenty of spare capacity among your most traveled routes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mroyer
How do truck action points play into this?


Right, so basically, any logistical building provides every hex it can reach with X amount of logistical capacity, divided up amongst however many branches it flows through, as I noted in my thread earlier. However, this doesn't last forever - for every hex the logistical building traces through, it spends AP, and once it runs out of AP all the hexes after that get increasingly drastically reduced logistical capacity.

Let's diagram it out. Note that these numbers are NOT taken from the game, they're being used purely to explain the concepts - for the exact numbers involved, check the manual.

Let's say you have the following four hexes, all in a line:

(Truck station) -> (Sealed road) -> (Sealed road) -> (Sealed road) -> (Front)

Now let's say the truck station produces 100 truck points at 20 AP, and that sealed roads cost 5 AP to move through. In that case, you'd get the following situation (Truck points/AP remaining):

(100/20) -> (100/15) -> (100/10) -> (100/5) -> (100/0)

In the situation above, you're doing fine - you're operating at the very edge of your logistical line, but you're still getting a full 100 points worth of supply to the front. But let's say instead of sealed roads you had dirt roads instead, which cost 10 AP to move through. Then you'd get this situation:

(100/20) -> (100/10) -> (100/0) -> (80/0) -> (60/0)

Now we have a problem. Only 60 points worth of stuff can make its way to the front line because your truck station has run out of AP midway through and can't operate at full efficiency too far from its base. Your solution is either to upgrade the dirt road to a sealed road, letting your AP stretch further as above, or upgrading your truck station to give you more AP (and more truck points!), or building a new truck station midway through, or installing a supply base, but to be honest I'm a bit fuzzy on how exactly supply bases work right now since apparently they don't quite operate the way the manual says they should, and Vic is maybe changing that? In theory supply bases adjust truck AP one way or another though.

One final thing to talk about: the importance of rail. As mentioned above, dirt roads cost 10 AP to move through, and sealed roads cost 5 AP to move through. But trains? Trains move across rail at 2 AP. This means that while truck stations run out of range eventually and will need new truck stations to carry on the slack, trains can run halfway across the world without stopping and are limited only by your capacity, as long as the rails are connected by rail stations and railheads. This makes rail the premier method of providing logistical support to distant areas, and having a network of rail stations within your core regions usually means their logistical capacity will overlap freely and give you a massive floating pool of surplus logistical capacity that you can use for strategic transfers and such. You're still going to need truck stations at the front since you won't need to build rail and a new station to push your logistics forward, but rail is key to binding your home logistical network together.

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RE: Bottlenecks (Can someone help explain!) - 7/13/2020 10:01:26 PM   
Leslac

 

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Having grown up on the isle of Falster in Denmark, I can say without a shadow of doubt it's because it's a black hole of humanity.

Change the name of the city, let the civies keep their transportation hub (which they will upgrade at some point). And build your own truck station on the road hex outside of Albion & upgrade it to max size.

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RE: Bottlenecks (Can someone help explain!) - 7/14/2020 12:46:21 AM   
mroyer

 

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Tomn, I really appreciate your taking the time to explain all that - it's been a very helpful read, both this and the thread you linked.

Thanks again,
-Mark R.

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RE: Bottlenecks (Can someone help explain!) - 7/14/2020 2:38:07 AM   
lloydster4

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn
As mentioned above, dirt roads cost 10 AP to move through, and sealed roads cost 5 AP to move through. But trains? Trains move across rail at 2 AP.


I 2nd everything Tomn said, but I want to clarify that these values were changed in patch 1.04. Sealed roads now use 7 AP per hex and Rail uses 4 AP per hex. You will also suffer some penalties to AP after a road/rail has branched more than 4 times.

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