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[1.04b6] Set a limit on the LP capacity of a road

 
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[1.04b6] Set a limit on the LP capacity of a road - 7/11/2020 2:40:10 PM   
Malevolence


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The total number of Logistic Points moving through a road hex should be limited, not unlimited.

Roads should have a maximum capacity.

As it is now, a dirt road can move 1,000 logistic points or 100,000 logistic points. The LPs are only limited by the number of trucks created in truck stations and their action points. However, roads do not have unlimited space.

The player only builds a road once, so there is no mechanism to expand the road into more lanes.

Sealed roads are helpful. However, the impact is more focused on throughput. Throughput is a reasonable abstraction--trucks proceed quicker given better surface and on ostensibly more lanes (like a highway/freeway/autobahn). However, there is no limit. 1,000 or 100,000 logistic points can be moved along the same sealed road in a turn.

Finally, no consideration is taken for other assets moving on the road, like units using their own action points. A unit conducting a road march on a road is going to impact the capacity and throughput of other users on the road.

Unit movement should impact the preview points as a pay it forward mechanism in terms of the road's capacity.

If the road's capacity is exceeded by the unit's movement, the road's benefit to unit movement should be removed for further movement--the unit has to travel cross country and not on the hex's road.




much of the same is true for rail in terms of logistic points. limited main lines.

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< Message edited by Malevolence -- 7/11/2020 3:56:35 PM >


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RE: [1.04b6] Set a limit on the LP capacity of a road - 7/11/2020 3:52:55 PM   
demiare

 

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Do you realize how expensive this suggestion in a CPU-time?

quote:

The player only builds a road once, so there is no mechanism to expand the road into more lanes.


How many population we usually have on WHOLE PLANET? 3-5 millions? Divided all around? Are you serious about them capable to overload road?

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RE: [1.04b6] Set a limit on the LP capacity of a road - 7/11/2020 4:16:58 PM   
Malevolence


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quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare

Do you realize how expensive this suggestion in a CPU-time?


No, how expensive is it for CPU-time?

quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare

How many population we usually have on WHOLE PLANET? 3-5 millions? Divided all around? Are you serious about them capable to overload road?


That does not imply a dirt road or sealed road has unlimited capacity.

Sorry to repeat, if you already know this:

quote:

Reasonable expectancy is the basis for defining capacity. That is, the stated capacity for a given facility is a flow rate that can be achieved repeatedly for peak periods of sufficient demand.


We know in the game the use of the roads is not uniformly distributed, therefore it is not "divided all around".

Trucks per unit of time is a reasonable measure that can define the maximum capacity (i.e. Truck/Unit Action Points per turn). That's why sealed roads are a good game object for upgrading roads. But as I wrote, capacity is not unlimited.


< Message edited by Malevolence -- 7/11/2020 4:22:14 PM >


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RE: [1.04b6] Set a limit on the LP capacity of a road - 7/11/2020 4:28:58 PM   
demiare

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

No, how expensive is it for CPU-time?



It's at least two additional conditions to every hex calculation (pull-based and "pure"), plus temporary overload of a road segment should force us to bypass it - this will lead to tons of additional calculations AND make logistic map a huge mess because instead of using shortest ways we will need to take longer routes too.

So end of turn will definitely take more time, how much exactly depend on algorithms used for logistic system. It can be a bit optimized with more serious math, but still will cost some processing time.

Plus your suggestion will only increase unfairness of AI and make player more frustrated when it will notice that AI don't bother about their road capacity at all. This is main reason why I'm against your suggestion until AI will start to use logistics&road honestly as we do.

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RE: [1.04b6] Set a limit on the LP capacity of a road - 7/11/2020 4:34:36 PM   
demiare

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

We know in the game the use of the roads is not uniformly distributed, therefore it is not "divided all around".



POPULATION is divided all around. So any usage of roads is mostly for government needs (oil IS a luxury resource for private economic!).

Sure, roads have a limited capabilities. But we also not forced to feed our units "from wheels" - there could be temporary supply bases all around (I'm not about unit reserve stockpiles). Things like ammo & fuels are definitely distributed from such local stores and not directly send from HQ. But game simplify all this logistic mess for us. And it's a good thing.

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RE: [1.04b6] Set a limit on the LP capacity of a road - 7/11/2020 4:44:19 PM   
Malevolence


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quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare

It's at least two additional conditions to every hex calculation (pull-based and "pure"), plus temporary overload of a road segment should force us to bypass it - this will lead to tons of additional calculations AND make logistic map a huge mess because instead of using shortest ways we will need to take longer routes too.

So end of turn will definitely take more time, how much exactly depend on algorithms used for logistic system. It can be a bit optimized with more serious math, but still will cost some processing time.


Oh?

As the logistic system is a graph traversal, I thought it would just put a ceiling clamp on logistic points per hex based on the infrastructure. Calculate once--when the infrastructure changes. Cache. Use often as it is already in the existing graph as the vertex.

Doesn't that graph transversal execute every time you change a traffic signal? I think it does.

Is that not correct?

Also...

quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare

Plus your suggestion will only increase unfairness of AI and make player more frustrated when it will notice that AI don't bother about their road capacity at all. This is main reason why I'm against your suggestion until AI will start to use logistics&road honestly as we do.


That is a separate issue. Roads (and rail) don't have unlimited capacity is my only offer. I agree it will increase difficulty, but I also agree it will increase player need for critical thinking and strategy.

I also agree the AI should not cheat with respect to logistics. Given automatic pull points, why must it cheat?




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< Message edited by Malevolence -- 7/11/2020 5:05:35 PM >


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RE: [1.04b6] Set a limit on the LP capacity of a road - 7/11/2020 5:13:56 PM   
lloydster4

 

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I think you're projecting Earth problems onto a sparsely populated planet.

>First, lets remember the scale:
1 turn = 60 days
1 Logistics Point = 10 tons
1 hex = 200km and approx. 26,000 square kilometers

>Then, lets make some assumptions. I'm going to use Earth-tech standards here, but these numbers could vary wildly
18-wheeler carry = 25 tons
Medium Tactical Truck carry = 5 tons
Speed on roads = 100km/h

>Now, lets say you have a road that carries 10,000 LP. That's 100,000 tons, or about 1700 tons per day. 68 18-wheelers or 340 tac trucks per day. It's just not that much traffic for a 26,000 square kilometer area.

Not to mention all the ambiguity of the system:
-When you build a "road segment," what are you actually building? A single 2-lane road? An 8-lane road? A network of roads?
-When you pay to upgrade a Truck station, are you also paying to increase road capacity?

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RE: [1.04b6] Set a limit on the LP capacity of a road - 7/11/2020 7:20:58 PM   
Malevolence


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lloydster4

Now, lets say you have a road that carries 10,000 LP. That's 100,000 tons, or about 1700 tons per day.


All other things being equal, this is an interesting point and it has other implications not specifically related to the OP here. 10,000 LP is only about 1,700 tons per day--one way. I'm definitely hearing you with that point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lloydster4
Not to mention all the ambiguity of the system:
-When you build a "road segment," what are you actually building? A single 2-lane road? An 8-lane road? A network of roads?
-When you pay to upgrade a Truck station, are you also paying to increase road capacity?


Yes, we agree. We could be talking about sprinkler system in someone's yard. The game objects are abstractions. What matters is the relative component data that make up the object.

In this case, each hex receives a capacity of logistics points (from any something) with a minimum 0 and maximum of (maybe) 9,223,372,036,854,775,807 (if it's a signed int64).

Given a strict interpretation of hex length, your point is no quantity of truck points in this game could sufficiently backlog all that length. (assuming each truck point moved independently)

I'm reminded of my cavalry troop moving on a one lane road with patties on either side--a local vehicle broke down ahead before the road reached the village and a junction--the locals got out and walked to the village leaving their vehicles behind--we were stuck unable to move forward or back--lesson: use traffic control points before crossing danger areas. in combat, just push the block over the side.)

I will not argue about holding all the other game's elements to such a standard (such a large order of magnitude). In terms of just this OP, I think you are correct.



Verisimilitude...

I've argued in other posts that stating the size of a hex in kilometers was a design mistake. Planets are different relative sizes based on the total number of hexes in each. Distances should be measured only in hexes--leave the rest to the players imagination. The other game elements are not plausible with an absolute value in kilometers. Like faster than light travel/communications, artificial gravity, etc., it should be the readers imagination.

I'm sure you don't want me writing another post about sensors, line of sight, and the curvature of the planet.

... damn, I just argued about holding all the other game's elements to such a standard... two lines after I wrote I wouldn't.



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< Message edited by Malevolence -- 7/11/2020 10:13:33 PM >


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Post #: 8
RE: [1.04b6] Set a limit on the LP capacity of a road - 7/11/2020 7:26:11 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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I agree as long as this includes levels of paved road (single lane, double lane, multi lane)

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RE: [1.04b6] Set a limit on the LP capacity of a road - 7/12/2020 2:39:09 AM   
lloydster4

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence
In this case, each hex receives a capacity of logistics points (from any something) with a minimum 0 and maximum of (maybe) 9,223,372,036,854,775,807


I laughed out loud at that one. Would be useful if you ever need to strat move a small moon.

If you don't mind my asking, where were you deployed? Not trying to be rude, just curious.

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Post #: 10
RE: [1.04b6] Set a limit on the LP capacity of a road - 7/12/2020 9:31:36 AM   
demiare

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lloydster4

I laughed out loud at that one. Would be useful if you ever need to strat move a small moon.



Except it's impossible to reach even a half of that value because of branch penalty and limited generation of logistics points :) Population & worker wages also a limitations too, so you never see even millions of logistic points without extreme cheating.

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RE: [1.04b6] Set a limit on the LP capacity of a road - 7/12/2020 10:24:50 AM   
Malevolence


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lloydster4

If you don't mind my asking, where were you deployed? Not trying to be rude, just curious.



That was 2ID in Korea, near Munsan. Nothing serious. A trip back from Warrior Base to Camp John C. Pelham (aka Garryowen-- or Garry Owen ). Our air troops were at Camp Stanton at the time.


< Message edited by Malevolence -- 7/12/2020 10:29:23 AM >


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*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

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Post #: 12
RE: [1.04b6] Set a limit on the LP capacity of a road - 7/12/2020 12:41:17 PM   
Malevolence


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For reference, [1.04b7] Remove the 200km/Hex Absolute Value.

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*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

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Post #: 13
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