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[1.04 b6] More pull logistics weirdness

 
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[1.04 b6] More pull logistics weirdness - 7/10/2020 10:45:48 PM   
Destragon

 

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I'm not fully understanding what's going on here yet, but it looks like junctions only seem to recognise pull points when they are directly adjacent to them. I think maybe the SHQ is an exception and can recognise pull points that are farther away.

See the following screenshots. I'm sending a save for this as reference via email.







Another issue that I've already mentioned in the beta thread, but I'm gonna mention it here again.
Junctions increase the branching count of the logistics even though the logistics aren't actually branching out at all.



< Message edited by Destragon -- 7/10/2020 10:50:54 PM >
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RE: [1.04 b6] More pull logistics weirdness - 7/10/2020 11:14:31 PM   
demiare

 

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Last one is NOT a issue - you HAVE a branch here as there is no traffic signs to block it. Yes, because of your lack of logistic points that branch is not used now - but it's fully online and available.

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RE: [1.04 b6] More pull logistics weirdness - 7/11/2020 3:31:14 AM   
Destragon

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: demiare

Last one is NOT a issue - you HAVE a branch here as there is no traffic signs to block it. Yes, because of your lack of logistic points that branch is not used now - but it's fully online and available.

I would absolutely call this an issue. The logistics are not branching out, so they should not be suffering a branch penalty just for passing along this random piece of road. The pull logistics make this junction act exactly as if there was an invisible traffic sign preventing logistics from traveling to the south, so it should also prevent the branching penalty.

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RE: [1.04 b6] More pull logistics weirdness - 7/11/2020 5:44:16 AM   
Malevolence


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I think the dev team has a very specific viewpoint and intent for how logistics points should flow and be controlled.

There are conventions and assumptions about rules the player must know to understand that system--as intended.

However, the mixing of English nouns (truck, rail, etc. points) and verbs (pull points) all being used as adjectives--makes it more difficult to communicate.

Adding pulling points didn't make the vision and intent clear. It made control much simpler via the use of automatic pull points for assets, cities, and units. If you turn on easy mode, it just runs. Problems solved. Mostly.

For example, per the image...

Goal:

Make sure 50 points get to the asset without wasting logistic points and not micomanging the traffic signals in the road junction hex.

Situation:

Points flowing through the main supply route will change. Avoid adjusting the traffic control signals each time the numbers change.

Method: (not automatic)

Set custom pull points to 50 in the asset's hex. Set the traffic control signal to block 100% for truck points only. Rail points and pull points are not impeded by the traffic control signal.

Assumed Results: (two viewpoints)

(1) Assume logistic points to be pulled (action verb) into the asset's hex as indicated. Logistics points would have made a path to the hex to provide the custom set 50 points the player ordered. The logistics points needed to create that path would have come from the road junction hex. No traffic sign was set for pull points, so pull points are expected to ignore the traffic control sign and flow south (you can't tell that of course looking at the interface's map). Why are no preview points shown going to the asset's hex? Is that a bug?

(2) Assume by using a traffic control signal that blocks truck points south, no pull points can flow to the hex. No preview points are shown to reinforce this viewpoint. Then how can a player make use of custom pull points? Answer: remove or adjust the traffic control signal to allow the flow of logistic points south to the asset's hex until LP's arrive in the correct quantity. So why use custom pull points at all?

We all know which of just these two viewpoints are true, because we know the rules.

Both views, however, appear logical given the names and the interface controls. The lack of preview points at least is a warning.

The issue is that we don't know which is correct because the names used and the control interface is unambiguous and transparent to the player without other knowledge. The player must likely learn by trial and error or the forums. or talk to the developer about a series of tests

This is only one situation, created just for this test. The game is filled with more complex situations.





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< Message edited by Malevolence -- 7/11/2020 6:48:27 AM >


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RE: [1.04 b6] More pull logistics weirdness - 7/11/2020 6:26:25 AM   
ramnblam

 

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Until you can block truck/rail logistics 100% BUT still allow pull points to go through as required by asset/units I don't really see the point as you still have to micromanage traffic signs like the old system to ensure you're not wasting logistic points and that enough points are actually reaching assets.

< Message edited by ramnblam -- 7/11/2020 6:29:04 AM >

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RE: [1.04 b6] More pull logistics weirdness - 7/11/2020 6:30:58 AM   
Malevolence


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ramnblam

Until you can block truck/rail logistics 100% BUT still allow pull points to go through as required by asset/units I don't really see the point as you still have to micromanage traffic signs like the old system to ensure you're not wasting logistic points.


You can turn on automatic pull points for assets, cities, and units. Then keep building assets that generate more truck points and rail points until there are no shortages. If shortages begin, build more assets to generate more points. Rinse and repeat.

That's ultimately what was asked for--"If I get low on logistics, I just want to upgrade or create another building. I don't want to micro."

Working as designed and intended.

Otherwise turn it all off. Those new pull features were not made for you.

Because the logistics design and interface doesn't follow the single-responsibility principle, it's very difficult to control, monitor, and at heart, detect true bugs in the system.


< Message edited by Malevolence -- 7/11/2020 6:43:37 AM >


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RE: [1.04 b6] More pull logistics weirdness - 7/11/2020 7:01:39 AM   
ramnblam

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence


Those new pull features were not made for you.




:(

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RE: [1.04 b6] More pull logistics weirdness - 7/11/2020 7:16:58 AM   
Jdane


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I've been wondering how to use the pull system while still balancing the flow of logistics as needed.
Am I to understand it only works if one does not use traffic signs at all? I was hoping it was an addition to the previous system, not an alternative one.

I wish too there was a way to use Pull tags for rural assets on a branch of the main roads to ensure just enough logistic points will go there and the rest still flow elsewhere needed, whatever the percentage of the supply sources are sent on the main road.

< Message edited by Jdane -- 7/11/2020 7:17:48 AM >

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RE: [1.04 b6] More pull logistics weirdness - 7/11/2020 9:43:41 AM   
GodwinW


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I still really favor the original system. It's very obvious what happens (/2 unless traffic signs every branch) instead of you having to read and compare numbers if you want to check things, not that you might need to. And I feel you have easier control over it.

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RE: [1.04 b6] More pull logistics weirdness - 7/11/2020 10:24:25 AM   
demiare

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jdane

I've been wondering how to use the pull system while still balancing the flow of logistics as needed.
Am I to understand it only works if one does not use traffic signs at all?


It work perfectly with a 95% traffic signs (especially now when you're able to set signs for tracks/rail/pull points).

There is still a few bugs with full block signs, but they're in process of being fixed. It's still a beta so bugs are expected.

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RE: [1.04 b6] More pull logistics weirdness - 7/11/2020 10:51:30 AM   
Jdane


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Are you talking about custom Pull tags per chance?

95 % is usually my goto solution, but it is less than optimal and subject to variation if you modify the amount of logistics flowing through the main road. Granted, I only have been using the default, automated Pull tags.

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RE: [1.04 b6] More pull logistics weirdness - 7/11/2020 11:03:15 AM   
demiare

 

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I'm almost never using custom pull tags (maybe when I really need private assets built ASAP as pull system seems to not recognize it at first turn of construction) as don't seem any uses to them if you're using auto-tags.

Instead I'm fine-tune my logistics using 4 railroads & 2 basic roads out of my capital + a lot of traffic signs to control branching. Roads are separated from rails so I could build a rail stations cluster and send all it's output through my capital while second road & city hex will be used later for a HS rail stations (I'm playing on super-large maps so logistic issues in mid-late game are ... huge ). New options to use a traffic signs only for trucks / rails are god-send for me.

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RE: [1.04 b6] More pull logistics weirdness - 7/11/2020 11:10:21 AM   
Vic


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@Malevolance
Already replied by email to that one. However we are still beta-testing the pull points. And I am still thinking about the traffic sign interaction with the Pull pts

@Destragon
Next beta7 will fix the branching issue if there is no branching with the pull driven logistical points. Right you are. The non-pull work the same, so it is consistent to do this too for pull.


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RE: [1.04 b6] More pull logistics weirdness - 7/11/2020 11:20:24 AM   
Alcatar

 

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I'm only about to start a new game with the new Pull LIS option, but from everything I understand of it, it's simply an enhanced version of the original where it will in some cases try to send LIS where it's necessary.
It at least reads as though it's a complete improvement over the old system - of course it's more complex and so needs more checking/fixes, but I'm very glad it's been added.

Using traffic signs and the automatic PULLs, I can't see how it could possibly be less easy than the original model to get supplies where they're needed.
Time for a new game :)

< Message edited by Alcatar -- 7/11/2020 11:22:51 AM >

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RE: [1.04 b6] More pull logistics weirdness - 7/11/2020 11:33:57 AM   
Vic


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@Destragon
Oh... i forgot.. the issue you reported with not seeing the pull points of the Units is because the Units have routed their pull points over your rail line to the south.
The Unit Pull does not initially have to follow roads since they can have a pickup point several hexes away.

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RE: [1.04 b6] More pull logistics weirdness - 7/11/2020 11:49:07 AM   
Pi2repsilon

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alcatar

I'm only about to start a new game with the new Pull LIS option, but from everything I understand of it, it's simply an enhanced version of the original where it will in some cases try to send LIS where it's necessary.
It at least reads as though it's a complete improvement over the old system - of course it's more complex and so needs more checking/fixes, but I'm very glad it's been added.

Using traffic signs and the automatic PULLs, I can't see how it could possibly be less easy than the original model to get supplies where they're needed.
Time for a new game :)

Absolutely. When it works well it requires minimal use of traffic signs other than the full stop for spaghetti networks, and when it works poorly it still cuts down on the need for manual traffic signs.

There are, however, still a few bugs in the system. :D

But that's what the betas are for.

It must also be admitted that the traffic light panel is a terrifying thing to behold, currently featuring 28+6*nOfRoads buttons, some functioning as toggles, some as mutual exclusive options, and some as tools of mass destruction that'll nuke your carefully constructed traffic signs and pulls. Nicely categorized, though.


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RE: [1.04 b6] More pull logistics weirdness - 7/11/2020 1:49:44 PM   
Destragon

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

@Destragon
Oh... i forgot.. the issue you reported with not seeing the pull points of the Units is because the Units have routed their pull points over your rail line to the south.
The Unit Pull does not initially have to follow roads since they can have a pickup point several hexes away.

What about the second and third image with the custom pull points? Why would putting custom pull points REDUCE the amount of logistics on the tile that I place them on?
Comparing the 1st and 2nd image, the tile before the custom pull points has 120 logistics and after the custom pull points 112. Meanwhile, there are un-pulled logistics points on the west of the pull points, which could have been diverted towards the pull points tile.

Do you handle custom pull points like unit logistics, in that they only request the logistics to be in operational logistics range? If yes, I think they should work like asset logistics instead, so that they actually request logistics to path through the tile that they are on, so that they can be used better for strategic movement and raising troops.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

I still really favor the original system. It's very obvious what happens (/2 unless traffic signs every branch) instead of you having to read and compare numbers if you want to check things, not that you might need to. And I feel you have easier control over it.

This is the exact same system, except that the game automatically places invisible traffic signs.

And I have to disagree BIG time about non-pull points logistics being very obvious. Without pull points, you have absolutely no idea how many logistics are needed where, unless you manually go through all of your units and calculate their demanded supplies and how many logistics points it would take to transport them. And your only way of influencing where logistics get sent is by experimenting with blocking random percentage numbers.
Without pull-points, logistics were a matter of "next turn, okay, everyone is starving, reload, click on 40% block traffic sign, next turn, still starving, reload, click on 60% traffic sign, next turn, people now actually get their supplies and you can continue playing". I don't understand why people defend this system.

< Message edited by Destragon -- 7/11/2020 2:01:19 PM >

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RE: [1.04 b6] More pull logistics weirdness - 7/12/2020 8:21:36 PM   
Destragon

 

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Okay, so it seems this weirdness with the custom pull points is still happening in beta 7.
It looks to me like the game gets confused when custom pull points are too close to a railhead/ rail logistics. I think it's trying to satisfy the pull points using the railway points, even though that's impossible in this situation.

On the left image, the custom pull points get ignored. On the right image, I moved the custom pull points by one tile and suddenly they are recognised.
The asset in the south is only a railhead, so it can't deliver any logistics to the custom pull point location.


Here you can see it even better. I demolished the road that goes north from the railhead and suddenly the custom pull got recognised.



< Message edited by Destragon -- 7/12/2020 8:30:24 PM >

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RE: [1.04 b6] More pull logistics weirdness - 7/12/2020 8:49:07 PM   
Vic


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It works as intended. But I have still some doubts if I should address this somehow. The pull system tries to route points over the shortest route and did not expect your railhead didnt have a truck station (in this case). Work around is placing a pull trafic sign to block pull point logistics flowing to the north of the railhead.

Best, vic

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RE: [1.04 b6] More pull logistics weirdness - 7/12/2020 9:16:16 PM   
Destragon

 

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I guess the question is if you want custom pulls to pull logistics points into the vicinity or if they should pull logistics to the actual tile with the custom pull on it?
Off of the top of my head, I guess it would make more sense for them to draw logistics to the actual tile they are on, but I guess maybe vicinity has other advantages?

By the way Vic, do you know how you should handle a situation like this, where the available logistics points all have very low remaining action points? This is where it gets really complicated.
The way it works right now is that it just entirely ignores the amount of action points and just sends the requested logistics on, even though they won't be enough anymore by the time they reach the tile with the pull request.
In this screenshot, the construction site actually gets enough logistics points when I remove the traffic sign. Should pull points automatically pull additional points, when the action points of the logistics isn't high enough to properly reach the destination tile?


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RE: [1.04 b6] More pull logistics weirdness - 7/15/2020 10:18:29 AM   
Vic


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I am considering the option to make the algorithm first study the ideal ranges and Log.points that Assets could send out before determining the ideal route for the pull.

It has been very helpful to have this detailed feedback.

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