Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: Italian morale

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> WarPlan >> RE: Italian morale Page: <<   < prev  1 [2]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Italian morale - 7/8/2020 9:42:02 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 6203
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline
There is no way he could have landed and then moved up to take the city in 1 shot.
Arm will lose 50% of their Opts = 4
The 1st mountain is 4 movement alone.

I think he landed the turn before and you didn't notice.

_____________________________

Games worked on

Designer of the Strategic Command 2 products
- Brute Force (mod)
- Assault on Communism
- Assault on Democracy

Designer of the Strategic Command 3 products
- Map Image Importer

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 31
RE: Italian morale - 7/8/2020 9:45:16 PM   
sveint


Posts: 2787
Joined: 1/19/2001
From: Glorious Europe
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

There is no way he could have landed and then moved up to take the city in 1 shot.
Arm will lose 50% of their Opts = 4
The 1st mountain is 4 movement alone.

I think he landed the turn before and you didn't notice.


No he took it in one turn. Ask him.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 32
RE: Italian morale - 7/8/2020 10:10:16 PM   
sveint


Posts: 2787
Joined: 1/19/2001
From: Glorious Europe
Status: online
If it was two turns I'd have zero complaints.

(in reply to sveint)
Post #: 33
RE: Italian morale - 7/9/2020 12:19:58 AM   
Harrybanana

 

Posts: 1939
Joined: 11/27/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AndrewKurtz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana
Invading units should only have 2 OPs


Is that in the rules?



Not sure if it is in the Rules or not. But in every invasion I have done the invading units have only had 2 OPs. But I have only invaded with infantry. I see in Alvaro's post above he says that armour will have 4 OPs (except Breakthrough which I assume will have 5).

< Message edited by Harrybanana -- 7/9/2020 12:22:35 AM >

(in reply to AndrewKurtz)
Post #: 34
RE: Italian morale - 7/9/2020 12:26:13 AM   
Harrybanana

 

Posts: 1939
Joined: 11/27/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e


quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

OK then I change my opinion. Invading units should only have 2 OPs, so this is clearly a bug. Alternatively, if this is WAD than taking advantage of it is, IMHO, cheesy.


Beware not to impact the 1940 invasion of Norway by the Germans...


Not sure how this affects the German invasion of Norway. Armour isn't used so the invading infantry will just get the 2 OPs.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 35
RE: Italian morale - 7/9/2020 12:33:38 AM   
Harrybanana

 

Posts: 1939
Joined: 11/27/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

lol

You gotta be ready for that come 42 and drop garrisons all over northern Italy.


Garrisoning all the ports I have no problem with. Which is why I am to blame in my game for allowing Trieste to be taken. But having to garrison Turin and Milan makes no sense to me. You may be correct that Sveint under garrisoned Italy and therefore it was bound to fall anyway. But that doesn't mean it is OK to ignore the fact that an invading armour could invade and then move 3 hexes trough mountains. That should not be allowed and there is no way that Sveint or anyone shoudl ahve to guard against that happening.

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 36
RE: Italian morale - 7/9/2020 1:06:41 AM   
AndrewKurtz

 

Posts: 843
Joined: 9/20/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Invasions are definitely too easy.

But I still think the defense of Italy here was incredibly sloppy and Sveint is trying to offload his own errors on to the game system. The fundamental problem here is that the defense of Italy was seriously underesourced in the first instance. And if it hadn't been Turin, something else would have given away here in due course.




Agree - the invasion might still happen, but Italy falling will not, with proper garrisoning.

One air unit in the area and the invasion probably fails too if just a single unit with no other naval support (and given no naval units nearby, that is what it looks like)

_____________________________


(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 37
RE: Italian morale - 7/9/2020 1:15:05 AM   
AndrewKurtz

 

Posts: 843
Joined: 9/20/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline
Was thinking it was even odder to be able to move that far in rain, but likely not rain the British turn before.

< Message edited by AndrewKurtz -- 7/9/2020 1:25:06 AM >


_____________________________


(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 38
RE: Italian morale - 7/9/2020 1:21:13 AM   
AndrewKurtz

 

Posts: 843
Joined: 9/20/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline
Just did an invasion and took Turin in a single turn.

I then railed a German unit to the hex south west of Genoa and it took the mountain hex.

So that can happen in a single turn.





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by AndrewKurtz -- 7/9/2020 1:24:30 AM >


_____________________________


(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 39
RE: Italian morale - 7/9/2020 1:27:16 AM   
AndrewKurtz

 

Posts: 843
Joined: 9/20/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline
After Germans rail a unit southwest of Genoa - same exact hex ownership.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________


(in reply to AndrewKurtz)
Post #: 40
RE: Italian morale - 7/9/2020 1:30:47 AM   
scout1


Posts: 2722
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline
Kinda begs for a "cheaper" Div unit which is intended for garrison duty as opposed to one that can combine for a offensive corp ....

(in reply to AndrewKurtz)
Post #: 41
RE: Italian morale - 7/9/2020 1:45:38 AM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7449
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline
The "cheaper" division unit is just a division set to garrison mode. Adding a further unit type for this is redundant.

_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 42
RE: Italian morale - 7/9/2020 4:14:06 AM   
sveint


Posts: 2787
Joined: 1/19/2001
From: Glorious Europe
Status: online
I can see it now. The British land a whole armoured corps but there is no opposition,
so naturally they highjack the nearest train, load all their tanks on it and take the party
train to Torino! The Italians soon join in, all one big fiesta.

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 43
RE: Italian morale - 7/9/2020 5:18:50 AM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 6203
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline
They just rolled up an empty country side

_____________________________

Games worked on

Designer of the Strategic Command 2 products
- Brute Force (mod)
- Assault on Communism
- Assault on Democracy

Designer of the Strategic Command 3 products
- Map Image Importer

(in reply to sveint)
Post #: 44
RE: Italian morale - 7/9/2020 8:01:11 AM   
Harrybanana

 

Posts: 1939
Joined: 11/27/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AndrewKurtz

Agree - the invasion might still happen, but Italy falling will not, with proper garrisoning.

One air unit in the area and the invasion probably fails too if just a single unit with no other naval support (and given no naval units nearby, that is what it looks like)


I suspect there are no naval units nearby because he didn't need them because Sveint didn't have any bombers in range. But even if Sveint had 3 bombers in range that would likely not have been enough. It is too easy to move in other naval units (DDs are the best) one at a time to soak off all the interceptions. So it looks like the only way to stop this is to garrison all Italian cities that have production as well as all the ports. So yes it can be countered, but the fact that you have to counter something like this is, IMHO, ridiculous.

(in reply to AndrewKurtz)
Post #: 45
RE: Italian morale - 7/9/2020 8:16:57 AM   
sillyflower


Posts: 3074
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Back in Blighty
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Agree, invasions are too easy. And, to defend sveint, I was the first to complain about the invasion of Rostov in the first turn of Barbarossa saying that it was not realistic (in a game versus sveint). And the game has been changed to avoid this invasion.

But, this does not prevent defending Italy, I agree...


And I think I was the second person sveint did that to, so Hadros' invasion is perhaps an example of the biter being bit.


_____________________________

web exchange

Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 46
RE: Italian morale - 7/9/2020 8:18:05 AM   
sillyflower


Posts: 3074
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Back in Blighty
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

Kinda begs for a "cheaper" Div unit which is intended for garrison duty as opposed to one that can combine for a offensive corp ....

nothing to stop you using under-strength divs for the job.

_____________________________

web exchange

Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 47
RE: Italian morale - 7/9/2020 8:55:16 AM   
sveint


Posts: 2787
Joined: 1/19/2001
From: Glorious Europe
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

And I think I was the second person sveint did that to, so Hadros' invasion is perhaps an example of the biter being bit.



There are basically two approaches to games like these. I want a more historical experience, while others are hyper-competitive
and will exploit any advantage possible. I don't really think the two types of gamers are compatible.

(in reply to sillyflower)
Post #: 48
RE: Italian morale - 7/9/2020 12:06:27 PM   
AndrewKurtz

 

Posts: 843
Joined: 9/20/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint

quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

And I think I was the second person sveint did that to, so Hadros' invasion is perhaps an example of the biter being bit.



There are basically two approaches to games like these. I want a more historical experience, while others are hyper-competitive
and will exploit any advantage possible. I don't really think the two types of gamers are compatible.



I disagree - and looking at the Red Sea thread, sounds like you are the latter at times.

Over time, one of three things usually happens in a game that is trying to support historical reality. As things are identified, the game system is updated to not allow ahistorical issues, simple tactics to stop the ahistorical become standard or the gamers come up with house rules.

For example, if Alvaro does nothing,

* Simple strategy - Players should always garrison Italian morale hexes after US entry
* House rule of no Axis units using Red Sea or Persian Gulf (Red Sea to Persian Gulf allowed if Suez controlled)

In this case, I continue to hope for refinements that make invasions harder (as an example, limitations until the naval tech reaches some level simulating advances in landing craft or more op point hit for landing in harder terrain - perhaps impacted by naval tech) and would like to see the Red Sea/Persian Gulf boxes changes listed above codified as part of the game.

< Message edited by AndrewKurtz -- 7/9/2020 1:02:19 PM >


_____________________________


(in reply to sveint)
Post #: 49
RE: Italian morale - 7/9/2020 12:09:05 PM   
AndrewKurtz

 

Posts: 843
Joined: 9/20/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

They just rolled up an empty country side


Three mountain hexes (including the invasion hex), if that is what you mean by countryside.

Perhaps the OPS points lost should be amplified by landing in rougher terrain as a solution? Landing in mountain terrain should be very different than a beach.

_____________________________


(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 50
RE: Italian morale - 7/9/2020 3:27:55 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 6203
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline
I could do something like 2x the terrain cost landing. Let me think about it. For infantry it works fine. But at the same time he didn't garrison the entire coast.

_____________________________

Games worked on

Designer of the Strategic Command 2 products
- Brute Force (mod)
- Assault on Communism
- Assault on Democracy

Designer of the Strategic Command 3 products
- Map Image Importer

(in reply to AndrewKurtz)
Post #: 51
RE: Italian morale - 7/9/2020 4:25:23 PM   
Harrybanana

 

Posts: 1939
Joined: 11/27/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

I could do something like 2x the terrain cost landing. Let me think about it. For infantry it works fine. But at the same time he didn't garrison the entire coast.


Alvaro, I am not so sure that Sveint didn't garrison the entire coast. At a minimum I believe he garrisoned all of the ports. But even if Sveint didn't garrison the entire coast, the only consequences he should be made to suffer for his foolishness are those that are historically realistic/possible.

As a stupid example, lets assume that there were no limits on how far airborne units could be paradropped. After the US is in the war it transports most or all of it forces to Europe. The Axis player takes advantage of this by dropping 6 paratrooper corps stationed in various locations around Europe into New York, Washington, Philadelphia, Boston, etc. (sort of a Nazi Dawn). The Allied Player complains about this and everyone says "What are you whining about, you could have easily countered this by garrisoning all of your US Cities with a division each." On the one hand they would be right, the Allied Player knew the Rules and was stupid to leave the US devoid of any units. But at the same time, allowing paratroopers unlimited range would not have been historically accurate. I assume it is because you want the game to be historically accurate that you did give paratroopers a set drop range. This is why I hate it whenever something historically impossible happens in the game and people respond by saying there is a counter to it. For me it is irrelevant if there was a counter or not, impossible things should just not be allowed.

But enough of my rant. I like your idea of making units pay 2X the terrain cost. But actually I don't even think this is necessary. All that is required is that a unit pay 1X the terrain cost for the invasion hex/beach. As you can see from the screenshot above the armour was able to invade the mountain hex and still have its 1/2 OPs remaining. In other words, with the current system a unit pays no OPs for the invasion hes itself. But if you did this then I think you would need to round up the OPs a unit gets rather than rounding down. Otherwise and invading infantry corps with only 2 OPs would use 1 OP for the invasion hex/beach and 1 OP to attack, so it wouldn't have any OPs left to advance into the vacated hex if it's attack retreats the enemy unit.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 52
RE: Italian morale - 7/9/2020 5:44:31 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 3103
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana


quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e


quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

OK then I change my opinion. Invading units should only have 2 OPs, so this is clearly a bug. Alternatively, if this is WAD than taking advantage of it is, IMHO, cheesy.


Beware not to impact the 1940 invasion of Norway by the Germans...


Not sure how this affects the German invasion of Norway. Armour isn't used so the invading infantry will just get the 2 OPs.


Yeah, I just want to be sure any change won't impact this.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to Harrybanana)
Post #: 53
RE: Italian morale - 7/9/2020 6:06:24 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 6203
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline
Currently infantry only has 2 Opts after an invasion and there hasn't been a problem. Only this created one with the armor.

Units have the following movement capabilities
Always allow one movement.
A contested hex ignores ZoC.
Infantry was working fine.

Basically if you invade a clear beach you can attack twice, or attack once and move inland into another clear land time in the summer. Very reasonable.
If you land unopposed with no units near you can move 2 hexes. Very reasonable.

So the armor is really the problem. In one turn it landed and raced to the factory. Which even to me in a two week time no armor unit could do.

So the same 1/2 Opts rule will stand with an addition but no more than 2 Opts will be available after landing (attack/attack - attack/move - move/move). Since the real complaint is the armor dash. If it was an infantry he would have had a turn to rail a guy in the city. Which seems reasonable or at least march someone up.

This also makes invasions slightly more difficult as now terrain has more of an impact on landing sites.

In this case the armor would have only moved 2 hexes not 4.

My original intention with the 1/2 moves was attack/attack, attack/move, move/move action. I just forgot faster units.

< Message edited by Alvaro Sousa -- 7/9/2020 6:07:14 PM >


_____________________________

Games worked on

Designer of the Strategic Command 2 products
- Brute Force (mod)
- Assault on Communism
- Assault on Democracy

Designer of the Strategic Command 3 products
- Map Image Importer

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 54
RE: Italian morale - 7/9/2020 7:50:42 PM   
sveint


Posts: 2787
Joined: 1/19/2001
From: Glorious Europe
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: AndrewKurtz

I disagree - and looking at the Red Sea thread, sounds like you are the latter at times.



Fair enough, I'll take that criticism. But it is always my intention to play a historically realistic game, within reason.

And thanks Alvaro for always listening to us players.

< Message edited by sveint -- 7/9/2020 7:51:48 PM >

(in reply to AndrewKurtz)
Post #: 55
RE: Italian morale - 7/9/2020 9:08:23 PM   
AndrewKurtz

 

Posts: 843
Joined: 9/20/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline
Very good change Alvaro. Thank you, as always, for listening, digesting and coming up with a good solution. I think this change will have a very positive impact.

_____________________________


(in reply to sveint)
Post #: 56
RE: Italian morale - 7/9/2020 10:39:23 PM   
Harrybanana

 

Posts: 1939
Joined: 11/27/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline
Thank you Alvaro, that will be a welcome improvement.

(in reply to AndrewKurtz)
Post #: 57
RE: Italian morale - 7/10/2020 5:22:32 PM   
AndrewKurtz

 

Posts: 843
Joined: 9/20/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline
Confirmed with new beta - here is the invasion turn. Thank you!




Attachment (1)

_____________________________


(in reply to Harrybanana)
Post #: 58
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> WarPlan >> RE: Italian morale Page: <<   < prev  1 [2]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.176