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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid

 
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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/8/2020 8:36:36 AM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 1492
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn

Check out his posts in the beta thread. Preeeetty sure Poe’s Law isn’t the issue here.

Poes Law applies to every text-only communication.

Expecting people to go through a posters entire posting history jsut to make sense of a single post, is no basis for communication.

"If you had known me for years" means "of course what I emitted was ambigious."

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 7/8/2020 8:37:09 AM >

(in reply to Tomn)
Post #: 31
RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/8/2020 10:30:56 AM   
Sieppo


Posts: 757
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZiggyMaca

If you water down the mechanics, make it less 'hardcore', there is no reason for the game to exist. Other games look better and are 3D, have better sound, character and model animation, voice acted scripted cinematics, and streamlined simple to understand in a few sittings mechanics. Shadow Empire would, if simplified, would compete with these games, and lose. Deep, complex systems, especially the logistics system, are the reason the game is great. If you don't like it, and want to change it, it will never be able to compete with other titles, and will be a failure. It would not appeal to the masses if changed, and would betray the following of players this has if Vic bends to the call for it to be the same as every other game. The amount of games that are 'hardcore' are so few between, it would be a crime to destroy this game for the people that are grateful for something different than the run of the mill mass market game. Please, let there be a game for the people that want deep complex strategy / wargame / hybrids. Please, I want Vic to make games with his personal vision, somewhat tempered by the call for certain modifications. I don't support the call to completely replace entire entwined backbone systems that some find 'hard', I want rather they learn to overcome the challenge, and concentrate on helping Vic to make the mechanics and rules easier to understand, not easier.


Yes yes yes ! I've also been trying to say this for some time now.

(in reply to ZiggyMaca)
Post #: 32
RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/8/2020 10:34:07 AM   
Kriegsspieler

 

Posts: 177
Joined: 12/3/2006
Status: offline
I'm going to divert this discussion slightly, and ask this. I like using the more complicated system of 1.04 -- it does feel like a Grigsby game -- but to be honest I still think I don't understand it very well. Especially I don't understand the information that is being presented.

Does anyone have a suggestion for a thread that explains how to interpret the available information and how to respond to it? Failing that, I'll just flounder around some more. I don't mind, really -- it's how I learn most games!

(in reply to Sieppo)
Post #: 33
RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/8/2020 11:21:23 AM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 1492
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo


quote:

ORIGINAL: ZiggyMaca

If you water down the mechanics, make it less 'hardcore', there is no reason for the game to exist. Other games look better and are 3D, have better sound, character and model animation, voice acted scripted cinematics, and streamlined simple to understand in a few sittings mechanics. Shadow Empire would, if simplified, would compete with these games, and lose. Deep, complex systems, especially the logistics system, are the reason the game is great. If you don't like it, and want to change it, it will never be able to compete with other titles, and will be a failure. It would not appeal to the masses if changed, and would betray the following of players this has if Vic bends to the call for it to be the same as every other game. The amount of games that are 'hardcore' are so few between, it would be a crime to destroy this game for the people that are grateful for something different than the run of the mill mass market game. Please, let there be a game for the people that want deep complex strategy / wargame / hybrids. Please, I want Vic to make games with his personal vision, somewhat tempered by the call for certain modifications. I don't support the call to completely replace entire entwined backbone systems that some find 'hard', I want rather they learn to overcome the challenge, and concentrate on helping Vic to make the mechanics and rules easier to understand, not easier.


Yes yes yes ! I've also been trying to say this for some time now.

Nope. You are saying that even the little Automation we got in the Beta is bad. It leaves every level of detail in place.

I no universe is that comparable to the refrenced post of ripping out the entire System and replacing it with a single global "Logistics" resource:

quote:

ORIGINAL: rwbrown

You could just reduce the power of each logistics building and eliminate supply depots and make it a single empire wide total. That way everything that needs logistics consumes logistics from the SHQ, literally like everything else. Logistics should be a resource and there should be a quartermaster Director, consolidating the military and applied science divisions. That way you still have 8 in command.

This would also drastically reduce turn calculations I’m willing to bet.


< Message edited by zgrssd -- 7/8/2020 11:24:05 AM >

(in reply to Sieppo)
Post #: 34
RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/8/2020 11:26:11 AM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 1492
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kriegsspieler

I'm going to divert this discussion slightly, and ask this. I like using the more complicated system of 1.04 -- it does feel like a Grigsby game -- but to be honest I still think I don't understand it very well. Especially I don't understand the information that is being presented.

Does anyone have a suggestion for a thread that explains how to interpret the available information and how to respond to it? Failing that, I'll just flounder around some more. I don't mind, really -- it's how I learn most games!

I wrote some Toutorials:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4834257
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4843217

But for more help, we would need to know wich part precisely you got issues with.

(in reply to Kriegsspieler)
Post #: 35
RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/8/2020 11:27:53 AM   
Sieppo


Posts: 757
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo


quote:

ORIGINAL: ZiggyMaca

If you water down the mechanics, make it less 'hardcore', there is no reason for the game to exist. Other games look better and are 3D, have better sound, character and model animation, voice acted scripted cinematics, and streamlined simple to understand in a few sittings mechanics. Shadow Empire would, if simplified, would compete with these games, and lose. Deep, complex systems, especially the logistics system, are the reason the game is great. If you don't like it, and want to change it, it will never be able to compete with other titles, and will be a failure. It would not appeal to the masses if changed, and would betray the following of players this has if Vic bends to the call for it to be the same as every other game. The amount of games that are 'hardcore' are so few between, it would be a crime to destroy this game for the people that are grateful for something different than the run of the mill mass market game. Please, let there be a game for the people that want deep complex strategy / wargame / hybrids. Please, I want Vic to make games with his personal vision, somewhat tempered by the call for certain modifications. I don't support the call to completely replace entire entwined backbone systems that some find 'hard', I want rather they learn to overcome the challenge, and concentrate on helping Vic to make the mechanics and rules easier to understand, not easier.


Yes yes yes ! I've also been trying to say this for some time now.

Nope. You are saying that even the little Automation we got in the Beta is bad. It leaves every level of detail in place.

I no universe is that comparable to the refrenced post of ripping out the entire System and replacing it with a single global "Logistics" resource:



This was a broader discussion. I don't use betas.

< Message edited by Sieppo -- 7/8/2020 11:28:29 AM >

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 36
RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/8/2020 11:38:29 AM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 1492
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo


quote:

ORIGINAL: ZiggyMaca

If you water down the mechanics, make it less 'hardcore', there is no reason for the game to exist. Other games look better and are 3D, have better sound, character and model animation, voice acted scripted cinematics, and streamlined simple to understand in a few sittings mechanics. Shadow Empire would, if simplified, would compete with these games, and lose. Deep, complex systems, especially the logistics system, are the reason the game is great. If you don't like it, and want to change it, it will never be able to compete with other titles, and will be a failure. It would not appeal to the masses if changed, and would betray the following of players this has if Vic bends to the call for it to be the same as every other game. The amount of games that are 'hardcore' are so few between, it would be a crime to destroy this game for the people that are grateful for something different than the run of the mill mass market game. Please, let there be a game for the people that want deep complex strategy / wargame / hybrids. Please, I want Vic to make games with his personal vision, somewhat tempered by the call for certain modifications. I don't support the call to completely replace entire entwined backbone systems that some find 'hard', I want rather they learn to overcome the challenge, and concentrate on helping Vic to make the mechanics and rules easier to understand, not easier.


Yes yes yes ! I've also been trying to say this for some time now.

Nope. You are saying that even the little Automation we got in the Beta is bad. It leaves every level of detail in place.

I no universe is that comparable to the refrenced post of ripping out the entire System and replacing it with a single global "Logistics" resource:



This was a broader discussion. I don't use betas.

You made it part of the smaler one, when you claimed that reply to here was related to your position.

To my knowledge your position is "All Automation bad wrong fu" and "Germany had no logistics management on any level but the general staff in WW2".

(in reply to Sieppo)
Post #: 37
RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/8/2020 12:01:31 PM   
Kriegsspieler

 

Posts: 177
Joined: 12/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
I wrote some Toutorials:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4834257
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4843217

But for more help, we would need to know wich part precisely you got issues with.

Thanks -- for some reason, I had missed the second of those posts. That's exactly what I was missing. as usual in this game, the information you need is there, if you know where to find it.

< Message edited by Kriegsspieler -- 7/8/2020 12:03:22 PM >

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 38
RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/8/2020 1:24:33 PM   
Tomn

 

Posts: 143
Joined: 4/22/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
Poes Law applies to every text-only communication.

Expecting people to go through a posters entire posting history jsut to make sense of a single post, is no basis for communication.

"If you had known me for years" means "of course what I emitted was ambigious."


You're absolutely right that miscommunication is rife in online-only communication. For example, I was probably unclear in my own post because what I meant to convey was "Yeah there is zero chance this guy isn't trolling, whatever it might look like to others."

Though personally I thought it was kinda obvious the guy was taking the piss even before I thought I recognized him. Just look at that absurd array of emoticons!



To go off on an tangent, I have to say I'm getting a little tired of the "anyone who wants to change the logistics system is a simpleton" argument. I mean, zgrssd literally wrote the book on logistics (or at least the War Room posts explaining them), and the majority of people I've seen in favor of the pull system understand the underlying logistical model perfectly well, they're just not a fan of the tedium in manually messing with it. What purpose is served by indirectly calling anyone in favor of change an idiot?

For that matter, why is there still a debate? The situation is done and dusted. The new pull system is in, getting refined, and not going away, it's possible to turn it off and play manually just like before, the underlying logistical system is unchanged, nobody's lost anything and people have only gained. So why are we still arguing about this?

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 39
RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/8/2020 3:33:13 PM   
balto

 

Posts: 1073
Joined: 3/4/2006
From: Maryland
Status: offline
I feel like I am reading a forum on Steam.., all horse***t and no content. Man, what happened to Matrix.

(in reply to willgamer)
Post #: 40
RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/8/2020 3:39:35 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 1492
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: balto

I feel like I am reading a forum on Steam.., all horse***t and no content. Man, what happened to Matrix.

Try the War Room and Sugestion Forums, they are better.

As for what happened? Sucess, I guess.

(in reply to balto)
Post #: 41
RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/8/2020 5:51:37 PM   
ricanuck

 

Posts: 111
Joined: 5/24/2013
Status: offline
I guess that dude, Erwin something, was not a real commander then...

(in reply to willgamer)
Post #: 42
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