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New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid

 
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New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/7/2020 3:52:07 PM   
willgamer


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Real commanders are neither traffic cops nor pull cops (whatever the heck that is).

The newest LOS is a step in the right direction, but why stop at the halfway point?

The current LOS system still so micro-managing fiddly, diddly (see comments in Beta thread)...

A fortiori-

Logistics must be simplified!

Logistics must be an empire wide number; you either have enough, or you don't.

Let the system do the rest.










< Message edited by willgamer -- 7/7/2020 3:53:01 PM >


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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/7/2020 4:15:36 PM   
Malevolence


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Logistics is a mini-game. Some like the mini-game and some don't.

That's not uncommon.

If you turn on pull points for units, assets, and cities and just pour on more truck station levels you can ignore it.

I put a city somewhere between 10-20 hexes from another. Never farther away than 20, because beyond that I can't efficiently setup a supply base at 10 hexes. I never have to micro control. I sometimes have to suffer shortages for short periods of time.



< Message edited by Malevolence -- 7/7/2020 4:27:32 PM >


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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/7/2020 4:58:16 PM   
zgrssd

 

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Building and upgrading truck stations is not micro. It is hte opposite of micro. It is a macro decision by it's very nature. And that is the only thing you really have to do with the new System. And with a bit of experience, you can do it way before it even becomes an issue.

So I am as confused about your remark, as I am confused about the people that think "building a maze of Traffic Signs" is a fun game mechanic.

(in reply to Malevolence)
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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/7/2020 5:37:52 PM   
jwarrenw13

 

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"Real commanders are neither traffic cops nor pull cops (whatever the heck that is)." - willgamer

Please let's not go there. There are many functions in the game that "real commanders" typically don't get personally involved in. Like any other strategic/operational level wargame, the player does many functions in SE that would not be within the normal purview of a "real commander." And it does them very well. The player also gets to decide things that have nothing to do with the commander's actions. Let's talk fate cards. A "real commander" doesn't become a deity and give a zone a "freak unidentified disease" to get fate points to do other things with. In this case Vic has decided to give the player control over some things that could just as easily have been designed as random events. In fact one could argue that having the fate cards as random events would be a better way to do it, since "real commanders" don't do that. Though I like the idea of having to accept something bad to get something good. It is a nice mini-game.

And there is the matter of moving formations and units. The supreme commander doesn't usually order the precise movements of individual units in a formation. He or she gives missions and objectives and the formation commanders execute the orders. Command Ops does that well, though of course in Command Ops the all powerful commander can still step in and give orders to individual units, a corp commander in some cases giving orders to a platoon-sized element.

So why can't we all dispense with the real commanders don't do this argument. It is boring and a bad argument anyway since the SE player/leader does other functions that "real commanders" don't do. And since many of those who like the 1.04 logistics system KNOW exactly what real commanders really do. And that is actually part of the fun of the game. In Command ops, for example, as brilliant a design as it is, you can actually win some games by giving an initial order to your entire brigade or division or corps and just let the game run on its own, though it is more fun and you get better results usually by doing some micro managing and bypassing the chain of command.

On the other hand, Malevolence has it right: "Logistics is a mini-game. Some like the mini-game and some don't." Bingo. Vic designed an intricate logistics system that some like and some don't. Apparently more don't like it. I happened to like it, but that's okay. Now he is designing another logistics system, supposedly simpler, that can be used in place of the 1.04 system or in tandem with it, using parts of one and parts of the other, based on the player's preference, as I understand what I'm reading, since I am not playing the beta.

The argument is over. For those who don't like the 1.04 system Vic has your back. For those who do, Vic apparently still has our back, too. Best of both worlds. And as I've noted, if I like the new log system or parts of it when it comes out in final version for 1.05, I will likely play it. Fine.

And I don't really care if Vic does as willgamer proposes and designs an even simpler log system for those who just want supplies to get to units without having to deal with it at all.

But can we stop the posts that imply that those who enjoy the logistics mini-game of 1.04 somehow don't understand what "real commanders" do and move on?

(in reply to Malevolence)
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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/7/2020 5:40:05 PM   
jwarrenw13

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Building and upgrading truck stations is not micro. It is hte opposite of micro. It is a macro decision by it's very nature. And that is the only thing you really have to do with the new System. And with a bit of experience, you can do it way before it even becomes an issue.

So I am as confused about your remark, as I am confused about the people that think "building a maze of Traffic Signs" is a fun game mechanic.



zgrssd, you can be confused or not. Accept reality. Some do think the maze is fun, whether you like it or not. More apparently don't. Vic is taking care of that. I am confused why people still feel the need to keep bringing it up when Vic is working on that problem for you, but since they do, I'm going to reply, because that's how I roll.

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Post #: 5
RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/7/2020 5:41:08 PM   
jwarrenw13

 

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Oops again. Another double post. Thought I was editing. Stupid me.

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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/7/2020 5:57:56 PM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Building and upgrading truck stations is not micro. It is hte opposite of micro. It is a macro decision by it's very nature. And that is the only thing you really have to do with the new System. And with a bit of experience, you can do it way before it even becomes an issue.

So I am as confused about your remark, as I am confused about the people that think "building a maze of Traffic Signs" is a fun game mechanic.



zgrssd, you can be confused or not. Accept reality. Some do think the maze is fun, whether you like it or not. More apparently don't. Vic is taking care of that. I am confused why people still feel the need to keep bringing it up when Vic is working on that problem for you, but since they do, I'm going to reply, because that's how I roll.

I was not adressing you. I was not adressing the group you put yourself into.
I only used the Mazebuilder group as a reference, to clearly measure and communicate my measure of confusion.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 7/7/2020 5:58:29 PM >

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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/7/2020 6:10:58 PM   
lloydster4

 

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If you're going to attack the current system, then you should at least offer an idea on how to improve it

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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/7/2020 6:28:57 PM   
rwbrown

 

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You could just reduce the power of each logistics building and eliminate supply depots and make it a single empire wide total. That way everything that needs logistics consumes logistics from the SHQ, literally like everything else. Logistics should be a resource and there should be a quartermaster Director, consolidating the military and applied science divisions. That way you still have 8 in command.

This would also drastically reduce turn calculations I’m willing to bet.

< Message edited by rwbrown -- 7/7/2020 6:29:49 PM >

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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/7/2020 6:30:33 PM   
Malevolence


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Well, I can say real commanders do logistics. It's the primary stress point for General officers in command (I'm looking at you AN/TPQ-36/37 Firefinder Radar ).

I think much is being done to make everyone have fun.


< Message edited by Malevolence -- 7/7/2020 6:31:31 PM >


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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/7/2020 6:50:25 PM   
MultiPurposeCanine

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willgamer
Logistics must be simplified!

Logistics must be an empire wide number; you either have enough, or you don't.

Let the system do the rest.

Perhaps lets remove everything that requires the activation of brain cells and redesign Shadow Empire to a generic mobile game with dumbed down mechanics? And if you think real supreme commanders have little to do with logistics you know little about warfare.

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
Building and upgrading truck stations is not micro. It is hte opposite of micro. It is a macro decision by it's very nature. And that is the only thing you really have to do with the new System. And with a bit of experience, you can do it way before it even becomes an issue.

This and keep roads simple, and when in need add supply stations. Furthermure don´t build King Tigers and Mech Inf all over the place and blitzkrieg into all directions when you´re in doubt that you can supply it. This + common sense and not much more to know, other than when you´re in negative resources try to even them out via own production or trade. How hard can this be to figure out? Watch 30mins - 1h on youtube how others play it and then have fun. And no doctor titles again please.

< Message edited by MultiPurposeCanine -- 7/7/2020 7:14:44 PM >

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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/7/2020 7:01:58 PM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rwbrown

You could just reduce the power of each logistics building and eliminate supply depots and make it a single empire wide total. That way everything that needs logistics consumes logistics from the SHQ, literally like everything else. Logistics should be a resource and there should be a quartermaster Director, consolidating the military and applied science divisions. That way you still have 8 in command.

This would also drastically reduce turn calculations I’m willing to bet.

Supply and replacement are the major concerns of the Industrialized warfare. And before that? Well, they were not exactly irrelevant either!
The number of wars that have been won and lost in large parts to logistics is staggering.

It seems pretty clear that Vics goal is at least the post-automation level of Supply worries.
People that have been playing his games and Matrix/Slitherine games for longer, often note that this is a contuniation of the previous work.

So I would not hold my breath from him just completely removing the System and dropping all the work that went into it. Wich is what your sugestions boils down to.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 7/7/2020 7:02:33 PM >

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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/7/2020 7:23:46 PM   
Malevolence


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If it were up to me every group of models in a unit would have an operational readiness rate based on their level of maintenance.

Should I suggest that too?

95% of tanks mission capable is the goal commanders fight everyday to meet. 100% is a dream that can be sustained for about a week when absolutely needed and the unit is the priority of effort. In terms of worldwide, that's good readiness.

Some people just want to push counters, I think we all get it. Sometimes, in niche games, we want something more substantive.

< Message edited by Malevolence -- 7/7/2020 9:28:56 PM >


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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/7/2020 7:33:18 PM   
OldSarge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

If it were up to me every group of models in a unit would have an operational readiness rate based on their level maintenance.

Should I suggest that too?

95% of tanks mission capable is the goal commanders fight everyday to meet. 100% is a dream that can be sustained for about a week when absolutely needed and the unit is the priority of effort. In terms of worldwide, that's good readiness.

Some people just want to push counters, I think we all get it. Sometimes, in niche games, we want something more substantive.


As a fan of Gary Grigsby games and CMO, I'd be okay with that. Some of us are into SE for a deeper game experience and others want a more beer and pretzels game.

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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/7/2020 7:48:23 PM   
YohanTM2

 

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Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics - Gen. Robert H. Barrow
Behind every great leader, there was an even greater logistician - M. Cox

Either way you like to play is just fine by me, but real commanders sure did pay attention to logistics

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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/7/2020 7:58:15 PM   
jwarrenw13

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

If it were up to me every group of models in a unit would have an operational readiness rate based on their level maintenance.

Should I suggest that too?

95% of tanks mission capable is the goal commanders fight everyday to meet. 100% is a dream that can be sustained for about a week when absolutely needed and the unit is the priority of effort. In terms of worldwide, that's good readiness.

Some people just want to push counters, I think we all get it. Sometimes, in niche games, we want something more substantive.


I once knew of a medical battalion in a mech division, way back in the 20th Century, that was not mission capable because of the number of pregnant female soldiers. (Note -- Not a statement against females in combat, just a real thing that happened one time.) But I don't propose modeling that.

At the same time, I do not understand why I can only play the courtesan stratagem on male characters. It is 2020. The courtesan needs to be available for all characters.

< Message edited by jwarrenw13 -- 7/7/2020 7:59:13 PM >

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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/7/2020 8:03:27 PM   
MultiPurposeCanine

 

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They claim they want this and that made easier but in truth they don´t. There is simply this "complains and points fingers" type who not really look for change (especially when it involves changing or improving themselves) but because it is like a cognitive reflex they´re used to. Very common among wargamers of every age and the complete opposite of a what in reality makes a good commander.

Characteristic threads you see from them:
1) complain type comes with a rather flamey or bold statement like "remove logistics" or "logs sucks, I am a doctor of Warp Travel", often combined with claiming absolute, universal, but wrong statements. Almost never ask for solutions but center everything around the complain.
2) people who want settle things take alot of time, respond with countless solutions for the problem, explain.
3) complainer usually either ignores all of this or continues to complain, the chance seeing a "good idea, I should try this" or "yes I wasn´t thinking about this" is slighter than getting hit into the butt by a lightning strike while drinking a Bud Light.
4) complainer gets his cognitive relief and extra attention, either will return one day with another of those "I don´t understand thus the game must be stupid or broken" threads or realize in the silent that the problem was located between his ears all the time but will continue his journey of being such a virtous character without learning anything from all of this.

If some insane would really turn this game into another watered down generic counter pusher or into another Civ in flight mode I bet they would be the first to abandon the spaceship.

< Message edited by MultiPurposeCanine -- 7/7/2020 8:34:47 PM >

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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/7/2020 8:52:59 PM   
ZiggyMaca

 

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If you water down the mechanics, make it less 'hardcore', there is no reason for the game to exist. Other games look better and are 3D, have better sound, character and model animation, voice acted scripted cinematics, and streamlined simple to understand in a few sittings mechanics. Shadow Empire would, if simplified, would compete with these games, and lose. Deep, complex systems, especially the logistics system, are the reason the game is great. If you don't like it, and want to change it, it will never be able to compete with other titles, and will be a failure. It would not appeal to the masses if changed, and would betray the following of players this has if Vic bends to the call for it to be the same as every other game. The amount of games that are 'hardcore' are so few between, it would be a crime to destroy this game for the people that are grateful for something different than the run of the mill mass market game. Please, let there be a game for the people that want deep complex strategy / wargame / hybrids. Please, I want Vic to make games with his personal vision, somewhat tempered by the call for certain modifications. I don't support the call to completely replace entire entwined backbone systems that some find 'hard', I want rather they learn to overcome the challenge, and concentrate on helping Vic to make the mechanics and rules easier to understand, not easier.

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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/7/2020 9:06:58 PM   
jwarrenw13

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ZiggyMaca

If you water down the mechanics, make it less 'hardcore', there is no reason for the game to exist. Other games look better and are 3D, have better sound, character and model animation, voice acted scripted cinematics, and streamlined simple to understand in a few sittings mechanics. Shadow Empire would, if simplified, would compete with these games, and lose. Deep, complex systems, especially the logistics system, are the reason the game is great. If you don't like it, and want to change it, it will never be able to compete with other titles, and will be a failure. It would not appeal to the masses if changed, and would betray the following of players this has if Vic bends to the call for it to be the same as every other game. The amount of games that are 'hardcore' are so few between, it would be a crime to destroy this game for the people that are grateful for something different than the run of the mill mass market game. Please, let there be a game for the people that want deep complex strategy / wargame / hybrids. Please, I want Vic to make games with his personal vision, somewhat tempered by the call for certain modifications. I don't support the call to completely replace entire entwined backbone systems that some find 'hard', I want rather they learn to overcome the challenge, and concentrate on helping Vic to make the mechanics and rules easier to understand, not easier.


I agree with your sentiments. I don't want to see the game diluted. I think Vic's goal is to improve the logistics system and to provide options in the logistics system while leaving the 1.04 system available intact for those who want it. As he said in his last comment in the beta forum, "I repeat: You can still play the game exactly as you did before." That should please just about everyone, I would think.

(in reply to ZiggyMaca)
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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/7/2020 9:21:19 PM   
Malevolence


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13

I once knew of a medical battalion in a mech division, way back in the 20th Century, that was not mission capable because of the number of pregnant female soldiers. (Note -- Not a statement against females in combat, just a real thing that happened one time.) But I don't propose modeling that.



Given the sound masking and lack of observable movement from outside the m113 armored ambulance (as opposed to the qualities of the M997 ambulance), I could understand that commander's challenges.

I also don't recommend modeling either of those issues.


< Message edited by Malevolence -- 7/7/2020 9:34:24 PM >


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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/7/2020 9:26:27 PM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

If it were up to me every group of models in a unit would have an operational readiness rate based on their level maintenance.

Should I suggest that too?


I am pretty sure the game already has that.
It is just that units of the same model and same Veterancy levels are displayed as one bigger unit with averaged values.


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13

At the same time, I do not understand why I can only play the courtesan stratagem on male characters. It is 2020. The courtesan needs to be available for all characters.

The game is somewhere around 8200. The "oldest profession" does not discriminate.
Plus, I heard that some women are into other women anyway. That makes it even wierder that the limit exists.

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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/7/2020 9:26:29 PM   
Tomn

 

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Some of you folks are real bad at recognizing satire, huh?

The OP is mocking those who support the recent changes to logistics, guys. He doesn’t seriously believe the stated position, nor does anyone else.

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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/7/2020 9:27:33 PM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn

Some of you folks are real bad at recognizing satire, huh?

The OP is mocking those who support the recent changes to logistics, guys. He doesn’t seriously believe the stated position, nor does anyone else.

Poe's Law applies:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law

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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/7/2020 9:30:14 PM   
Tomn

 

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Check out his posts in the beta thread. Preeeetty sure Poe’s Law isn’t the issue here.

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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/7/2020 9:32:32 PM   
Malevolence


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn

Check out his posts in the beta thread. Preeeetty sure Poe’s Law isn’t the issue here.


Damn, then not surprised for my mistake. I lack a sense of humor.

-- also damn, I wasted my gif on the worst mini-game ever on this thread for no reason.

< Message edited by Malevolence -- 7/7/2020 11:13:06 PM >


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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/7/2020 10:08:07 PM   
jwarrenw13

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn

Some of you folks are real bad at recognizing satire, huh?

The OP is mocking those who support the recent changes to logistics, guys. He doesn’t seriously believe the stated position, nor does anyone else.


Except his post is exactly like many that are not satire, assuming it is, so if it is, very good satire. Doesn't change the truth of my reply though.

(in reply to Tomn)
Post #: 26
RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/7/2020 11:03:35 PM   
willgamer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn

Some of you folks are real bad at recognizing satire, huh?

The OP is mocking those who support the recent changes to logistics, guys. He doesn’t seriously believe the stated position, nor does anyone else.


WINNER!!!!!



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Rex Lex or Lex Rex?

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Post #: 27
RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/7/2020 11:06:21 PM   
Malevolence


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willgamer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn

Some of you folks are real bad at recognizing satire, huh?

The OP is mocking those who support the recent changes to logistics, guys. He doesn’t seriously believe the stated position, nor does anyone else.


WINNER!!!!!




OR... you're just claiming that based on all the insightful feedback provided in response to your true feelings.

False flag operation (I will add that to the guerilla thread too)

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Post #: 28
RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/7/2020 11:07:37 PM   
willgamer


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quote:

Except his post is exactly like many that are not satire, assuming it is, so if it is, very good satire. Doesn't change the truth of my reply though.


You are too kind sir.

Thanks!



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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid - 7/7/2020 11:12:21 PM   
willgamer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence


quote:

ORIGINAL: willgamer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn

Some of you folks are real bad at recognizing satire, huh?

The OP is mocking those who support the recent changes to logistics, guys. He doesn’t seriously believe the stated position, nor does anyone else.


WINNER!!!!!




OR... you're just claiming that based on all the insightful feedback provided in response to your true feelings.

False flag operation (I will add that to the guerilla thread too)

quote:


OR... you're just claiming that based on all the insightful feedback provided in response to your true feelings.

False flag operation (I will add that to the guerilla thread too)


Nope, just a simple Southerner "hold my beer" kind of guy.

p.s. Appreciate your thoughtful posts around here....

_____________________________

Rex Lex or Lex Rex?

(in reply to Malevolence)
Post #: 30
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