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Why so many calvary divisions?

 
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Why so many calvary divisions? - 7/5/2020 4:31:33 AM   
cap_and_gown


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I am puzzled by the huge number of cavalry divisions arriving as reinforcements. They show up with just 10% of their TOE number of cavalry squads. The one's that arrived last turn have only managed to get to 15% of TOE in cavalry squads. For now I am using them as ditch diggers for secondary and tertiary defense lines. If not for their digging ability, I would be tempted to just disband a bunch of them to strengthen the remaining divisions.

What is the point of fielding so many divisions if they can't be at least be staffed to 50% TOE? Did the Russians really create a bazillion shell units, or is that an artifact of the WitE's production system.
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RE: Why so many calvary divisions? - 7/5/2020 5:32:21 AM   
Telemecus


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When units arrive generally they will be understrength and you would be expected to wait for replacements to rrive to fill them up as did happen historically. At least in theory the developers should have created units that after losses should equate to something historical, although there is a lot of debate on if they do. However if in your game you actually get more losses than was historical you would have even less to fill up the same number of units. Did you lose an especially large number in 1941?

In practise managing lots of shell units and trying to prioritise manpower going to your better units is an artifact of WitE's system.

Added to this problem there is a hard limit on the amount of cavalry you can produce each turn, even if you had the necessary manpower and arms points for it. And as all the infantry divisions also have some cavalry, the only way to prioritise cavalry going to cavalry units is to have them on refit and all the others off.

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RE: Why so many calvary divisions? - 7/5/2020 10:57:06 AM   
chaos45

 

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Russian Cav squads are limited in production per turn, because people complained about cav being to powerful years ago so they were nerfed---probably not valid with how many games see the Germans doing super well in general in 1941/1942 anymore.

So now as the Soviets to use your Cav you have to wait for them to build up, and then not overuse them in combat so you don't exceed your ability to replace squads.

Realistically when those cav divisions arrive the soviets should at least get a temporary burst of extra production or converted equipment or something....as they were built by recruiting the local population and using the horses local to the area mainly in 1941.

Meta wise tho….you really do want those cav divisions when you get Cav corps they will be strongest soviet units for something like 6 months of game so very important.

< Message edited by chaos45 -- 7/5/2020 11:01:26 AM >

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RE: Why so many calvary divisions? - 7/5/2020 9:31:55 PM   
thedoctorking


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What Chaos said. Treat them gently, put them on refit mode at least ten hexes behind the lines, and when you can, form them into cavalry corps (5 ap per corps) and then assign three support units to each corps. Ideally, you want to have some armor, like an independent tank battalion (or later, regiment or assault gun regiment), some AT capability, like an AT or TD regiment, and some backup infantry, like a ski battalion or motorcycle regiment, but any SU are better than nothing. Then, they will lead your winter offensives in 1941-42. Later, they will take second place to your rifle corps in your combined arms armies but will still combine a respectable punch with good movement abilities when you go over to the offensive.

Oh, and I don't know if you noticed, but when they arrive they are set at max TOE of 20%. You want to reset that to 100%. Upper right hand corner of the unit detail pane.

< Message edited by thedoctorking -- 7/5/2020 9:33:09 PM >

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RE: Why so many calvary divisions? - 7/5/2020 9:52:24 PM   
redrum68

 

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"they arrive they are set at max TOE of 20%. You want to reset that to 100%."

Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure they arrive set to max TOE 100%. I actually do the opposite which is set most of them to 20% max TOE and only a few at a time to 100% max TOE to focus the limited cavalry squads that are built into just a few units rather than spreading them across all of them.

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RE: Why so many calvary divisions? - 7/6/2020 1:24:22 AM   
thedoctorking


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Some of them will come at 100%, if they are new units arriving from other fronts. Most of your reinforcements in the early going are destroyed divisions that reappear after a few turns and they are set at 20%. For your infantry units, it is a good idea to leave them at 20%, set on refit and hanging out far behind the lines, where they will gain morale and experience. Then, you can either merge them into existing units with low TOE (make sure to do this at the end of your turn after you have spent all your AP) or reset them to 80% or so to fill up and be ready for combat. but for cavalry, you want them to fill up as soon as possible so you should have them at relatively high max TOE.

You want your cavalry to slow the enemy's advance in the summer turns of 1941, but as much as possible, you want to conserve them for counter-attacks in the winter and hence you should (if you can spare them) move all your cavalry to the rear and set them on refit and 100% max TOE.

(in reply to redrum68)
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RE: Why so many calvary divisions? - 7/6/2020 2:08:11 AM   
cap_and_gown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

What Chaos said. Treat them gently, put them on refit mode at least ten hexes behind the lines, and when you can, form them into cavalry corps (5 ap per corps) and then assign three support units to each corps. Ideally, you want to have some armor, like an independent tank battalion (or later, regiment or assault gun regiment), some AT capability, like an AT or TD regiment, and some backup infantry, like a ski battalion or motorcycle regiment, but any SU are better than nothing. Then, they will lead your winter offensives in 1941-42. Later, they will take second place to your rifle corps in your combined arms armies but will still combine a respectable punch with good movement abilities when you go over to the offensive.

Oh, and I don't know if you noticed, but when they arrive they are set at max TOE of 20%. You want to reset that to 100%. Upper right hand corner of the unit detail pane.


Some arrive at 20% (turn 4), most are coming in at 100%. One of them (turn 5), the 21st Mtn Cav Div actually is almost 100% filled. Amazing!

I wonder about assigning support however. I have not got to a point where the Russians can assign support units to combat units, but my experience with the Germans makes me hesitant to explicitly assign support units. I would like my support available to all the units in the Corps/Army. Only when the unit moves out of HQ support range so I start assigning support units, and then only if it the odds look dicey. It cost one AP to return them to the Corps/Army, so the less assigning I have to do, the better.

My typical practice, particularly for PZ divisions, has been repeated hasty attacks with no assignment while still in range of the Corps HQ, then once the division is out of range I may consider assigning support if I run into a dug in unit or some other similar circumstance. Then, the following turn, I leave the support assigned until the division has finished moving at which point I return the support units to the HQ. That way they will be available to the rest of the Corps on the following turn.

(in reply to thedoctorking)
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RE: Why so many calvary divisions? - 7/6/2020 7:40:58 AM   
Dreamslayer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown
Some arrive at 20% (turn 4), most are coming in at 100%. One of them (turn 5), the 21st Mtn Cav Div actually is almost 100% filled. Amazing!

21st in this case it's already existed unit at start of the war that was transferred from "of-map" location (Fergana, Mid-Asian M.D.). It was part of 4th Cav Corps there (18th, 20th and 21st Mountain Cav Div).
Cavalry divisions that arrives almostly empty it's a new forming units.

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RE: Why so many calvary divisions? - 7/6/2020 2:09:07 PM   
timmyab

 

Posts: 1982
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
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Cavalry is your only useful offensive force in Summer of 41. They have a maximum penetrating power of 7 hexes as opposed to maximum 4 for all other unit types. Long range raids are often suicide missions, but can significantly disrupt Axis supply. Ideally cavalry used in this role should be 41 or so morale and low TOE (20-40%). Keep them on both flanks of pz army salients in somewhat forward positions, but where they have a chance to escape if necessary.
Also in a forward role cav make good scouts and enemy controlled hex converters.
As fronts become more static I tend to use them defensively as deep cover often in reserve mode.
I keep my cav low to mid TOE through the Summer and increase through the Autumn starting with the best units first in preperation for the blizzard where they are your biggest threat, especially when converted to corps.

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
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RE: Why so many calvary divisions? - 7/6/2020 6:45:53 PM   
thedoctorking


Posts: 1876
Joined: 4/29/2017
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown


quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

What Chaos said. Treat them gently, put them on refit mode at least ten hexes behind the lines, and when you can, form them into cavalry corps (5 ap per corps) and then assign three support units to each corps. Ideally, you want to have some armor, like an independent tank battalion (or later, regiment or assault gun regiment), some AT capability, like an AT or TD regiment, and some backup infantry, like a ski battalion or motorcycle regiment, but any SU are better than nothing. Then, they will lead your winter offensives in 1941-42. Later, they will take second place to your rifle corps in your combined arms armies but will still combine a respectable punch with good movement abilities when you go over to the offensive.

Oh, and I don't know if you noticed, but when they arrive they are set at max TOE of 20%. You want to reset that to 100%. Upper right hand corner of the unit detail pane.


Some arrive at 20% (turn 4), most are coming in at 100%. One of them (turn 5), the 21st Mtn Cav Div actually is almost 100% filled. Amazing!

I wonder about assigning support however. I have not got to a point where the Russians can assign support units to combat units, but my experience with the Germans makes me hesitant to explicitly assign support units. I would like my support available to all the units in the Corps/Army. Only when the unit moves out of HQ support range so I start assigning support units, and then only if it the odds look dicey. It cost one AP to return them to the Corps/Army, so the less assigning I have to do, the better.

My typical practice, particularly for PZ divisions, has been repeated hasty attacks with no assignment while still in range of the Corps HQ, then once the division is out of range I may consider assigning support if I run into a dug in unit or some other similar circumstance. Then, the following turn, I leave the support assigned until the division has finished moving at which point I return the support units to the HQ. That way they will be available to the rest of the Corps on the following turn.


The Soviets are usually shorter of AP than the Germans, so the 1 AP cost to return a support unit to its parent HQ is a consideration. I generally just try to get my corps to a balanced lineup and leave it at that, unless I'm doing something special like attacking a level 4 fort in urban terrain (when you want flame tanks and heavy support gun units). Soviet generals are often pretty poor quality especially in the initiative rating, which IIRC is what you use to send support units from HQ to a battle. I still make sure my IHQ (Army, typically) is full of support units, especially artillery and rocket regiments.

(in reply to cap_and_gown)
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RE: Why so many calvary divisions? - 7/6/2020 8:32:02 PM   
eskuche

 

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A nuance with reinforcements is that newly raised divisions which show ~100 men in the reinforcements panel will have 100% TOE max. This includes most cavalry. So these are uncontrollable manpower users as opposed to reformed shells which max out at 20%.

(in reply to thedoctorking)
Post #: 11
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