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Thoughts on the new "pull" system in logistics

 
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Thoughts on the new "pull" system in logistics - 7/2/2020 7:20:42 PM   
KingHalford

 

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I've not had a chance to test it yet, although from reading the changes on paper I'm concerned that the player might not need to do much there now. It appears to be mostly automated with some minor ways to adjust the flow akin to setting the SHQ's priority levels.

What do people think?

< Message edited by KingHalford -- 7/2/2020 7:21:18 PM >


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RE: Thoughts on the new "pull" system in logi... - 7/2/2020 7:38:38 PM   
Falke

 

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It is too early to give an informed opinion. Basically the pull is satisfied first and rest is evenly distributed which could result in sub-optimal spare capacity for strategic movement/upgrades

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RE: Thoughts on the new "pull" system in logi... - 7/2/2020 7:51:10 PM   
Destragon

 

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I think the system is currently bugged in that it sends the wrong amount of logistics points around and the points in the logistics log seem to be different from the actual logistics points on the map.
Might have to wait for beta 3 to get a proper impression.

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RE: Thoughts on the new "pull" system in logi... - 7/2/2020 7:57:47 PM   
GodwinW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

I've not had a chance to test it yet, although from reading the changes on paper I'm concerned that the player might not need to do much there now. It appears to be mostly automated with some minor ways to adjust the flow akin to setting the SHQ's priority levels.

What do people think?


Just see your post now. See what I think here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4847102

In short: you are 100% correct. Imo.
I played about 2 hours with it.

< Message edited by GodwinW -- 7/2/2020 7:58:42 PM >

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RE: Thoughts on the new "pull" system in logi... - 7/2/2020 9:22:42 PM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

I've not had a chance to test it yet, although from reading the changes on paper I'm concerned that the player might not need to do much there now. It appears to be mostly automated with some minor ways to adjust the flow akin to setting the SHQ's priority levels.

What do people think?

I would say it is a improovement.
Finally people got no more excuse to make that "Maze of Traffic Signs", instead of upgrading their Truck Stops already!

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RE: Thoughts on the new "pull" system in logi... - 7/2/2020 9:59:11 PM   
KingHalford

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

I've not had a chance to test it yet, although from reading the changes on paper I'm concerned that the player might not need to do much there now. It appears to be mostly automated with some minor ways to adjust the flow akin to setting the SHQ's priority levels.

What do people think?


Just see your post now. See what I think here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4847102

In short: you are 100% correct. Imo.
I played about 2 hours with it.


I've had a quick look now and I feel the same way initially.

This system essentially automates one of the game's more interesting features, and leaving the original system in there creates even more confusion: why bother with the traffic light system when it's more efficient not to use it? Well, one argument might be that the original system was fun to use. Now if you want to keep up in a multiplayer game, everybody will be forced to the pull system, meaning that we're left with what is essentially an automated system (with some small tweaking).

This is a rather unsatisfactory "fix" for an issue that didn't exist in the first place as far as I'm concerned. Very disappointing.

People new to the game will judge it as it comes for sure, but I can't help feel this decision was made to pacify a rather loud minority of players who made some rather hyperbolic claims about the traffic management system as it was, and likely as a defence against the inevitable (and frankly unavoidable) stream of criticism from Steam users when the game hits that platform.

I'll give it a thorough play-through with the new system at some point later in the month once my schedule clears up and see if my initial feelings are correct.

< Message edited by KingHalford -- 7/2/2020 10:01:30 PM >


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RE: Thoughts on the new "pull" system in logi... - 7/2/2020 10:02:12 PM   
Sieppo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

I've not had a chance to test it yet, although from reading the changes on paper I'm concerned that the player might not need to do much there now. It appears to be mostly automated with some minor ways to adjust the flow akin to setting the SHQ's priority levels.

What do people think?


Just see your post now. See what I think here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4847102

In short: you are 100% correct. Imo.
I played about 2 hours with it.


I've had a quick look now and I feel the same way initially.

This system essentially automates one of the game's more interesting features, and leaving the original system in there creates even more confusion: why bother with the traffic light system when it's more efficient not to use it? Well, one argument might be that the original system was fun to use. Now if you want to keep up in a multiplayer game, everybody will be forced to the pull system, meaning that we're left with what is essentially an automated system (with some small tweaking).

This is a rather unsatisfactory "fix" for an issue that didn't exist in the first place as far as I'm concerned. Very disappointing.

People new to the game will judge it as it comes for sure, but I can't help feel this decision was made to pacify a rather loud minority of players who made some rather hyperbolic claims about the traffic management system as it was, and likely as a defence against the inevitable (and frankly unavoidable) stream of criticism from Steam users when the game hits that platform.

I'll give it a thorough play-through with the new system at some point later in the month once my schedule clears up and see if my initial feelings are correct.


Well this would just be extremely sad ....

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RE: Thoughts on the new "pull" system in logi... - 7/3/2020 12:40:50 AM   
jwarrenw13

 

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The current system, the feel of it, is the most realistic of any game I've ever played. And to me managing the logistical system is one of the more enjoyable parts of the game. I don't really care if someone tells me the math of it doesn't really add up right. I found in my first full game that I did not have to do the extensive turn by turn micromanagement that some claim, but I did have to look over the whole system every 3 turns or so when doing offensive operations. And it was fun, at least to me. A challenge. It just feels right, especially when engaged in an offensive and having to manage your extended logistical system. I am concerned about what the end result will be. I hope the final version will be good and that there will be difficulty options for those of us who like the complexity and chaos of the current system.

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RE: Thoughts on the new "pull" system in logi... - 7/3/2020 1:48:38 AM   
Destragon

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

This system essentially automates one of the game's more interesting features, ...

I think this is the big misunderstanding. It doesn't automate any interesting part of the logistics system. It automates the brainless parts, specifically the following:
- That your assets receive enough logistics points, so that they can actually do the job that you wanted them to do
- Ensure that your units and cities are not starving, when you have enough logistics to supply them, but they are getting wasted by being sent into no man's land

The logistics system is still there. The same amount of decisionmaking is present with the pull system as there was before it.
What the old traffic sign management really was is some sort of math puzzle minigame. You are given point number X and target number Y and you have to use multiple preset percentage blockers to get the right numbers on the tiles where you wanted them to be. There is a correct solution, which is why I call it a puzzle, but I wouldn't really think of it as a good puzzle either. It was mainly about clicking buttons until the logistics did what they were supposed to be doing. In my opinion, this should have never been delegated to the player in the first place. To me this very clearly seems like a task that is intended for the computer to calculate for you. Just like with all the other calculations that the computer does while running the game.
My kinda silly example is that if the game for some reason now and then tasked the player to do graphics rendering calculations manually, there would certainly still be some math fans out there who would like to solve these math problems, but the issue is that there is no actual decision being made by the player in that situation, because it would just be about working towards the one correct solution, and you kinda expect a strategy game to be about making decisions, not solving math puzzle minigames, so it makes sense for your GPU to do these calculations for you. And just because the computer is doing this for you, it still doesn't mean that the game would be playing itself. No one would ever think that a game is playing itself, just because the player doesn't have to somehow manually render the graphics or do whatever other calculations. That is exactly how I feel about automating the logistics delivery to assets, etc.

quote:

... and leaving the original system in there creates even more confusion: why bother with the traffic light system when it's more efficient not to use it? Well, one argument might be that the original system was fun to use. Now if you want to keep up in a multiplayer game, everybody will be forced to the pull system, meaning that we're left with what is essentially an automated system (with some small tweaking).

Traffic signs still have a use. You use them to make the one decision that you used them for even in the old system. To decide into what directions your leftover logistics points should be sent, so that you can use them for strategic move and raising troops.

quote:

This is a rather unsatisfactory "fix" for an issue that didn't exist in the first place as far as I'm concerned. Very disappointing.

I really can't disagree more. I think it's a pretty much perfect fix for what used to be my only gripe with the game. I was quited stoked when I saw it.

quote:

People new to the game will judge it as it comes for sure, but I can't help feel this decision was made to pacify a rather loud minority of players who made some rather hyperbolic claims about the traffic management system as it was, and likely as a defence against the inevitable (and frankly unavoidable) stream of criticism from Steam users when the game hits that platform.

I mean, and I can't help, but feel that the people in favour of the traffic light system are the loud minority who make the hyperbolic claims. At least in my eyes, this is an objectively good addition to the game and saying that this somehow ruins the spirit of the game in some way sounds hyperbolic to me.

It's really too bad that the poll on Vic's blog didn't mention the logistics system, because I would have liked to see the voting percentage. I'm pretty sure that the traffic light system is the thing that I've seen the most complaints about, at least of the people who started playing the game.

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RE: Thoughts on the new "pull" system in logi... - 7/3/2020 2:29:09 AM   
SSFSX17

 

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Pull system is how Advanced Tactics works. Therefore I am in favor of it.

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RE: Thoughts on the new "pull" system in logi... - 7/3/2020 2:37:08 AM   
jwarrenw13

 

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I've never done traffic signs as a math puzzle. Yet it is indeed kind of a puzzle, but no more of a puzzle than figuring out the optimum odds on a multi unit attack when throwing in that one more unit lowers the odds from 8-1 to 4-1. I've either blocked all traffic where it obviously should be blocked, half (well 40 or 60%), or none. I manage generally just by eyeballing the color of the supply line in the bottlenecks overlay and adjusting from there by adding capacity and blocking or partially blocking highways to nowhere. No math involved. And I've managed to avoid disaster doing it that way. No calculator needed. It takes some care and time, but I find doing it to be fun and entertaining. If that level of complexity remains, I'm good with it. If I don't have to manage my logistics, however, that is a loss.

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RE: Thoughts on the new "pull" system in logi... - 7/3/2020 3:37:54 AM   
Malevolence


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The logistic System is a gigantic mess

At the moment, 7950 hits and 341 replies. By far the most talked about and read thread in the forum.

In terms of that thread as the catalyst for these changes, the real question is did you get what you wanted?


< Message edited by Malevolence -- 7/3/2020 3:38:09 AM >


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RE: Thoughts on the new "pull" system in logi... - 7/3/2020 3:53:12 AM   
ramnblam

 

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Happy to hear about these changes and am about to start up a new game to see how they play. There is enough to manage in this game without the playing the traffic sign game every 2nd turn.

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RE: Thoughts on the new "pull" system in logi... - 7/3/2020 3:58:46 AM   
cspringer1234

 

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Maybe changes like this to the logistics system will eventually allow the AI to actually use the logistics system. Anything that makes it so the major AI players don't have a road trailing after single unit of theirs would be nice. It's like the AI units have a tail, or a leash.

< Message edited by cspringer1234 -- 7/3/2020 4:03:38 AM >

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RE: Thoughts on the new "pull" system in logi... - 7/3/2020 4:31:29 AM   
KingHalford

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13

The current system, the feel of it, is the most realistic of any game I've ever played. And to me managing the logistical system is one of the more enjoyable parts of the game. I don't really care if someone tells me the math of it doesn't really add up right. I found in my first full game that I did not have to do the extensive turn by turn micromanagement that some claim, but I did have to look over the whole system every 3 turns or so when doing offensive operations. And it was fun, at least to me. A challenge. It just feels right, especially when engaged in an offensive and having to manage your extended logistical system. I am concerned about what the end result will be. I hope the final version will be good and that there will be difficulty options for those of us who like the complexity and chaos of the current system.


Exactly. I really liked the manual allocation of flow of supply. I'm pleased that in single player at least we'll be able to choose to turn the automation off and if that wasn't the case I'd be pretty pissed off about this change. This will most affect multiplayer games I think.

There seemed to be three main arguments for changing the logistics system.

1. The claim that traffic light management was busywork, and that it required excessive micromanagement.

Changing a few traffic lights from time to time wasn't any effort, and I reject the claim that you had to do that on a turn by turn basis since nobody was ever able to provide any evidence that this was in any way necessary or that anybody was actually doing it. It takes a few seconds to set a traffic light: even if you had to do ten, that's about thirty seconds of your life. Consider how long it takes to move all your units during a large war. Thirty minutes? Maybe more?

I personally had moments where I had to remove and change a whole bunch of traffic lights at once, and I can see why some people might not enjoy having to do that, but that didn't happen more than a couple of times in the 150+ hours that I've been playing this game so I find it hard to believe this was such a big issue that it required a major rework. Usually you're adding one or two here and there, and occasionally altering a couple as assets are built or your forces expand in different directions. I think this is the weakest reason for altering the existing system as it stands.


2. The claim that the game is already very complex and logistics is one of the worst offenders for opacity in the mechanics.

Completely agree here.

The pull system automation certainly reduces the initial complexity for the player by them now not having to think about it at all.

In doing so we're removing a part of the game that some people seemed to enjoy. The trade off is that at least in multiplayer we're now either having to set house rules to not use the pull system, or we're all going to use the pull system because it'll be more efficient. I don't like any change that reduces the features of a game after release and this is looking like one of those situations.

The second trade off is that we not only have a traffic light system (already complex) but a whole new pull system with its own buttons and settings. We've now doubled the complexity of the system for people who actually want to interact with logistics.

Verdict: for reducing over-all complexity this is an epic fail. For people who don't want to interact with logistics beyond building roads and a few structures, then it's certainly more simple, but only after you've actually gone through the trouble of learning the two systems.

3. More casual players will not accept the logistics system as it stands, certainly an issue with the impending Steam release.

There's nothing that can be done about this because Steam has a high proportion of people who will complain about absolutely everything anyway. I actually think this was a reasonable reason for changing the logistics system as it stood, and I think that automating it this way will certainly help new players but are they getting the best experience from it? So this might well help game sales, but I feel the game has been dumbed down in the process.

4. The AI's messy road systems required a lot of traffic light management to fix.

Yes it did. That's no longer a problem because the player can now remove roads.

@Destragon saying this is like making the player do graphics rendering calculations is utter nonsense. By the same argument why bother with manual placement of your troops when you're mainly just clicking buttons until the military does what it's supposed to be doing? You make some good arguments for this pull system but that's not one of them and I know you've over-stated this to make a point but I don't think the point is very well thought through.

The decision making in logistics ensured that if you didn't take care of it, you'd have some issues later down the line. By being more careful about how you built your logistics buildings and roads you were rewarded by being able to push your empire's growth further. Yes, it encouraged micromanagement where other areas of the game discourage it, and I absolutely agree that was a problem in the game design. I recommended some kind of cost to traffic light management, as with the Organisation funding levels, to discourage that, although I accept that wasn't a very elegant solution it's certainly a better one than hot-wiring the whole thing to encourage players to bypass it entirely.

We're now returning to the situation where Vic's presented yet another rather deep and complex system that the player can only partly see and interact with, and is now almost entirely discouraged from interacting with at all, and I raise an eyebrow at that decision because it's a rather clumsy game design choice.

I still think this is one of the best games that I've ever played, and even if the pull system completely replaced the old one (and considering point 3 I think there is a strong argument for that now) I won't change my mind on that, but I can't help but think this is a rather rash reaction to an issue that wasn't really fully investigated in the first place. I'm in full agreement that the system wasn't perfect, and maybe the game will be better with a more automated system, but I liked it as it was because it felt fun to be in control of something you don't normally have any control over, and I know I'm not the only one.




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RE: Thoughts on the new "pull" system in logi... - 7/3/2020 4:38:41 AM   
Munashe

 

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I'm just going to post to say that I support the change. The way you had to fiddle with the traffic signs or supply would go all over your road network, or the way things could be ruined by a private asset splitting off half your points was one of the friction points I encountered when trying to introduce the game to my friends. The previous lack of functionality was odd, because it's something that doesn't really contain any decisions. An easily solved problem that doesn't have a reason to be put on the player. Placing troops is completely different, in that there's a huge number of options, and the player has to make meaningful choices. Even though it didn't bother me much, you still couldn't even get things perfect with the resolution of percentage blockers in the traffic options. It's clear to me that the game should have been like this from the start. The new pull system is much better.

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RE: Thoughts on the new "pull" system in logi... - 7/3/2020 5:18:23 AM   
eddyvegas

 

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A pull system eh? Well, I'm gonna have to try it so I can tell everybody how wrong they are!

But seriously, folks, Any new rule that keeps me away from that sucky Traffic Light UI is fine with me. [Click 60%, DON'T CLICK ON DELETE ALL SIGNS, (why can't I see all road changes immediately? well I guess I have to) back out, (to see those changes) oh that's way too much, click hex again, try 90%, carefully back out, oh that's too little, click hex......]

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RE: Thoughts on the new "pull" system in logi... - 7/3/2020 5:39:43 AM   
Malevolence


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Started a new game and have been using the new system.

I wasn't in love with the old system. I like logistics being important and requiring management.

I didn't think the original traffic light system was a great system.

That said, I find the 1.04b2 logistics changes uninspired and pedestrian. They are dull.

Changes made management simpler and you can focus on just pushing wargame counters now, but it's unfortunate the change didn't add anything to the gameplay.

If you have the mind of technician, I suppose that's what you wanted. Better switches. I think you got better switches.

That said, as a strategy-focused player, I have no new strategies to develop for victory. No new strengths or weaknesses to exploit or to counter. There are no new dimensions to the game.

I think it could have been great, but instead it was uninspired.


< Message edited by Malevolence -- 7/3/2020 5:40:39 AM >


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RE: Thoughts on the new "pull" system in logi... - 7/3/2020 5:45:34 AM   
Malevolence


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I also wonder if a new player--who has never seen this game before--sees logistics and its play as simple and transparent now.

I would guess a new player would be more confused by the options, not less confused.


< Message edited by Malevolence -- 7/3/2020 5:46:46 AM >


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RE: Thoughts on the new "pull" system in logi... - 7/3/2020 6:13:03 AM   
josefrees

 

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If it’s going to be automated there should be a leader skill for it

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RE: Thoughts on the new "pull" system in logi... - 7/3/2020 6:16:31 AM   
Malevolence


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quote:

ORIGINAL: josefrees

If it’s going to be automated there should be a leader skill for it


So it would be automated but inefficient due to a leader's skill level?



We would have to move the forum to the Eve Online boards for that level of salty tears.



< Message edited by Malevolence -- 7/3/2020 6:21:06 AM >


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RE: Thoughts on the new "pull" system in logi... - 7/3/2020 6:48:06 AM   
lloydster4

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence
That said, as a strategy-focused player, I have no new strategies to develop for victory. No new strengths or weaknesses to exploit or to counter. There are no new dimensions to the game.


The Traffic Light system is nothing to do with strategies either. It's an efficiency-puzzle with one clear, superior answer, that merely takes a brief mental exercise to work out. The original system was neither burdensome, as some claim, nor engaging. It was just a bit of light busy work that some people found satisfying (myself included).

Meanwhile, every other aspect of the logistics system has been improved! Reduced AP's mean you can't rely on a small handful of massive LiS hubs to fuel your entire network. Supply Dump rework means you now have hexes far away from cities that are both important and vulnerable. Branching penalties and Road demolition means you're encouraged to build a small number of meaningful roadways.

Perhaps the biggest tragedy is that there are no interesting counterplays against the AI's network because it has no weak points other than cities and borders.

Regardless of whether you prefer push or pull, it's a minor change. It certainly doesn't make/break the game.




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RE: Thoughts on the new "pull" system in logi... - 7/3/2020 6:51:23 AM   
concern

 

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Started a new game under the push system. I have military extended down one road from a city, who seem to be getting their fair share of logistics. I have two assets one hex away from the city and they're definitely getting more logistics than they.

...and then I have another zone down an 8-10 length dirt road and they are getting nothing. I've tried turning the push down on the assets, but I can only switch them off, not reduce them from their 100 auto-push. I've tried putting up traffic lights to the assets and that seems to have a minor effect. Should I be setting a manual push priority to the other zone? Is that how I get stuff flowing there again?

Thanks

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RE: Thoughts on the new "pull" system in logi... - 7/3/2020 8:21:16 AM   
Vic


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We are stil finetuning the new Pull Point system. Please read my posts on the Open Beta thread.

best wishes,
Vic

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RE: Thoughts on the new "pull" system in logi... - 7/3/2020 8:23:22 AM   
Vic


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quote:

I'm pleased that in single player at least we'll be able to choose to turn the automation off and if that wasn't the case I'd be pretty pissed off about this change. This will most affect multiplayer games I think.


Each player can choose his own settings.

And if you turn it off everything stays exactly as it was before. :)

best wishes,
Vic

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RE: Thoughts on the new "pull" system in logi... - 7/3/2020 9:29:47 AM   
demiare

 

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I really liked that we are going to be relieved from a routine job of fine-tuning logistic points for our assets (bring needed amount but nothing more). It's too annoying and should be automatized.

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RE: Thoughts on the new "pull" system in logi... - 7/3/2020 9:49:03 AM   
GodwinW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Destragon


quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

This system essentially automates one of the game's more interesting features, ...

I think this is the big misunderstanding. It doesn't automate any interesting part of the logistics system. It automates the brainless parts, specifically the following:
- That your assets receive enough logistics points, so that they can actually do the job that you wanted them to do
- Ensure that your units and cities are not starving, when you have enough logistics to supply them, but they are getting wasted by being sent into no man's land



A misunderstanding? Not at all. Just a difference of opinion. It seems hard for you to understand, but what you call the brainless part Kinghalford and me call the interesting part. I have tried explaining why it's cool to me in that post in the beta thread. Player agency, I feel needed, positive experience for managing well etc.
It's not brainless, and it's definitely not needed to spend every turn tweaking it. It's easy to manage when you just set it up right. Thought investment -> reward. It's fun (to us)!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Destragon
The logistics system is still there. The same amount of decisionmaking is present with the pull system as there was before it.


Absolutely nowhere close. Like I said, I played 2 hours ignoring it 100%, except building 1 road and upgrading truck stations after nationalizing them. It's basically gone, compared to how it was. For the things that matter of it to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Destragon

Traffic signs still have a use. You use them to make the one decision that you used them for even in the old system. To decide into what directions your leftover logistics points should be sent, so that you can use them for strategic move and raising troops.


That is really not what I use them for. That's only what you used them for? Man. THEN I really do not get what was there for you to want the game to automate

quote:

ORIGINAL: Destragon

At least in my eyes, this is an objectively good addition to the game and saying that this somehow ruins the spirit of the game in some way sounds hyperbolic to me.


It's nice that you said it's objective in your eyes, because that's the point: it's subjective. You can accept that we speak the truth, are not exaggerating, and just have an opinion that you find hard to believe (probably because you miss a lot of the steps/reasons between our opinion and yours). Just like I accept that you speak your truth, and that you are not just saying this for the heck of it but mean it.


(in reply to Destragon)
Post #: 27
RE: Thoughts on the new "pull" system in logi... - 7/3/2020 10:17:37 AM   
Vhalor


Posts: 80
Joined: 6/11/2020
Status: offline
Although I have only played a small amount with these new changes, so far it seems a step in the right direction and I like it. It now feels like the logistical network is run with some semblance of competency, instead of the previous utter incompetency! Nice.

Also, thanks to this new pull system, I estimate about 63,42% less heads to immediately explode, once this game appears on steam. To summarize, new LIS system likely to save countless lives.

(in reply to GodwinW)
Post #: 28
RE: Thoughts on the new "pull" system in logi... - 7/3/2020 4:13:53 PM   
Atlanton

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 3/12/2012
Status: offline
I'm really confused about the claim that the pull-system removed strategic decision making.

In practice, there are no decisions to be made with the push system; just a solution to the problem of "send the logi points to everywhere it's needed". Traffic signs can be changed and adjusted turn by turn, so there's really no consequences nor difficulty for your management of the push systems. That's why other posters have called in a puzzle: it's not hard to fit the jigsaw puzzles together, you just have to sit down and spend the time doing it.

Meanwhile, all the decisions that affect logistics that actually require thought, are still in the pull-system. You still have to build truck stations, you still need to be mindful of where you build your roads and where you invest the IP in sealed roads, you still have to defend your supply lines, you still have to use rails so your cities can transfer goods without overloading your network... Those are strategic decisions. Decisions that have long lasting-implications, that take time to take effect, and cost resources that could be used elsewhere. The traffic sign system is just a pass/fail test of whether you remembered to do the busywork.


(in reply to Vhalor)
Post #: 29
RE: Thoughts on the new "pull" system in logi... - 7/3/2020 4:32:00 PM   
jwarrenw13

 

Posts: 1564
Joined: 8/12/2000
From: Monroe, LA, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

quote:

I'm pleased that in single player at least we'll be able to choose to turn the automation off and if that wasn't the case I'd be pretty pissed off about this change. This will most affect multiplayer games I think.


Each player can choose his own settings.

And if you turn it off everything stays exactly as it was before. :)

best wishes,
Vic


Thank you, Vic. I am good with this. Choices are good. Refine the new system. Keep refining the "old" system. You rule.

My great concern was that for the first time I encountered a game that modeled in many ways the real life problem of establishing main supply routes and traffic control points and everything associated with real logistics operations. And I was concerned that was going to be swept away simply because it wasn't easy.

At the same time I was confused by those who said that managing the logistics system was a study in intense micromanagement every turn with dozens of roadblocks with various percentages of closure determined apparently by the player doing higher order mathematics. I still haven't encountered that. I look at the bottleneck overlay, look at the colors, close off roads to nowhere, build up truck and rail capacity, and I have no real problems except when I am advancing in major offensive operations, which is exactly where the most problems would arise in real life operations. That is where I have to take a close look at the overlay every 3 turns or so. And usually my problems are more with lack of capacity than lack of roadblocks.

I was concerned that the feeling of realism and satisfaction in establishing successful MSRs was going to be taken away. Apparently it isn't, even with the new system, based on what I've been reading. And with the option to keep the old system, I think we have a problem and division solved.

As for those saying we have to bow to the wishes of the masses on Steam. This is a complex turn based, hex based, 2D game. We don't have 3D tanks and soldiers running across the map and pew-pewing and dying and engaging in hand to hand combat. Simplifying the logistics system some is not going to satisfy the people who will take one look at the game and write a negative review because they can't git gud and grok the game in 20 minutes. Of course there are also gamers on Steam who look for games just like this, but they are not the most vocal ones.

I wish Vic the greatest success with one of the finest games I've ever played. But it isn't a game for the cancel culture element of Steam who enjoy their feeling of power.

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 30
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