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Are Supply Bases working as intended? - 6/26/2020 7:32:12 PM   
jpwrunyan


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I'm re-reading the manual and I came upon this in 4.5.4. Extending your Logistical Action Points.

quote:

At the fringes of our Logistical Network (between range 4 and 8 from the City) we see that the number of points is getting low and at range 9 disappearing. The cheapest way to extend your Logistical Network just a little bit is to build a Supply Base on just the right spot to extend the "spreading-out" of the Logistical Points of the Transport Hub I Asset.
The selected Hex (1) above would be the ideal Hex for a Supply Base as it is still (just) within the 50 AP Truck Range of the Transport Hub I Asset and when completed can thus extend the full Logistical Points passing through the Hex 50 Action Points further than otherwise would be possible.
Emphasis added.

In case you can't see the picture, the hex indicated is 4 hexes away from the zone capitol. The way the documentation is worded here and elsewhere made me think that extension points were not cumulative with action points but served to "refresh" the range of your trucks. In which case it would indeed make sense to build your supply bases farther out from your transport hubs.

In practice this isn't the case. Extension points work in sum with action points to extend range. So really, hex 1 is not "ideal" in any sense of the word. The word "arbitrary" comes to mind... In fact, I would much rather build my supply base right next to my zone capitol where it's more easily defended, all things being equal. In what universe does the hex 1 in the picture make any sense for building a supply base? There are really only a few weird edge-cases where I would ever consider building my supply base farther than one adjacent hex from my capitol, and they involve building my base *beyond* the final 100% logistical hex (Hex 1 in the picture).

So I ask, are supply bases working as intended considering that they don't work the way the manual implies? Or is the manual just horribly, horribly worded? I understand how supply bases work in-game; it's the manual that I suspect doesn't.




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RE: Are Supply Bases working as intended? - 6/26/2020 7:33:41 PM   
zgrssd

 

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Without even looking at the post:
Pretty sure they are not. I mean I already reproted them as a bug.
They add extension points that are consumed first, rather then "refilling" action points. They even work if placed in the same hex as the truck stop (if it is not a city bound one).

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 6/26/2020 7:34:21 PM >

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RE: Are Supply Bases working as intended? - 6/26/2020 8:23:25 PM   
GodwinW


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Pretty sure they work as intended. You don't code extra AP in this way unintentionally.

It is possible that they originally worked differently, and that later the logistical issues of that implementation was realized.

Because like I said elsewhere: just imagine they work only by refilling. Now have 3 cities relatively close. Each has a truck station: where to put Supply Bases?
Ok, now you upgrade to Sealed Roads: relocate Supply Bases?

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RE: Are Supply Bases working as intended? - 6/26/2020 8:50:36 PM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

Because like I said elsewhere: just imagine they work only by refilling. Now have 3 cities relatively close. Each has a truck station: where to put Supply Bases?

So far from either city, that mos trucks on this road lost a decent amount of AP? Ideally as many as can be refilled?

"Ok, now you upgrade to Sealed Roads: relocate Supply Bases?"
In beta12 Sealed roads only change cost from 10 AP to 7 AP. So the change would not be that big.

If you even want to maintain the "no stacking" rule, there are a number of ways to do just that without running into any issues when using "restore/remove AP".

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RE: Are Supply Bases working as intended? - 6/26/2020 9:07:00 PM   
Destragon

 

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I don't think they are working as intended. In the beta thread, Vic said he "likes the criticism on the supply bases", so I figure he might change them in some way with the coming patches.

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RE: Are Supply Bases working as intended? - 6/26/2020 11:30:44 PM   
eddieballgame

 

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Using 1.03-beta12:
Per the tooltip (in game) for the the Supply Base;
"Produced 50 Logistical Extension at Start of Turn"
What else is it supposed to do?

< Message edited by eddieballgame -- 6/26/2020 11:32:29 PM >

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RE: Are Supply Bases working as intended? - 6/27/2020 12:15:33 AM   
lloydster4

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jpwrunyan
There are really only a few weird edge-cases where I would ever consider building my supply base farther than one adjacent hex from my capitol


This is correct

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RE: Are Supply Bases working as intended? - 6/27/2020 12:31:54 AM   
jpwrunyan


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Thanks for the input guys. I really hope the manual gets a make-over soon.

Thematically, I prefer what I assume was the original intent of supply bases: they're a pit stop to refresh logistics allowing them to go farther. You don't need to stop, refresh, and get gas right out of town. You need it when you're about to run out.

In the meantime I'm going to keep building them right outside my cities. It would be interesting if they were modified to give a trade-off between proximity to the hub and distance from it. Like built closer to the hub they push more points a shorter distance, but farther away they push fewer points a longer distance. That's *sort of* the way it works now except that within the 5 (or 10 with sealed roads) hex range where LP is 100% the placement means nothing.

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RE: Are Supply Bases working as intended? - 6/29/2020 12:39:43 AM   
the1sean


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I would prefer that 90% of the manual is scrapped and everything is integrated into contextual tool-tips within the game's and relevant menus.

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RE: Are Supply Bases working as intended? - 6/29/2020 1:05:56 PM   
WCG

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

Ok, now you upgrade to Sealed Roads: relocate Supply Bases?



Yes, that's probably the critical point, for me.

Besides, if a player doesn't want to put Supply Bases right next to their city - or right on top of their truck station, when it's outside of a city - don't do it. Nothing requires a player to do that.

If it makes more sense to you to top off a truck's gas tank after it's traveled a little bit first, then you can always do that. So this doesn't actually affect anyone who doesn't like it, right?

But then, maybe you're thinking of multiplayer games? I must admit that my interest is entirely in the singleplayer game.



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RE: Are Supply Bases working as intended? - 6/29/2020 6:57:39 PM   
Kamelpov

 

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personally i try to get to the city hex as i build one on it with a truck station to get all direction buffed for cheap.

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RE: Are Supply Bases working as intended? - 6/29/2020 10:08:35 PM   
GodwinW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WCG


quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

Ok, now you upgrade to Sealed Roads: relocate Supply Bases?



Yes, that's probably the critical point, for me.

Besides, if a player doesn't want to put Supply Bases right next to their city - or right on top of their truck station, when it's outside of a city - don't do it. Nothing requires a player to do that.

If it makes more sense to you to top off a truck's gas tank after it's traveled a little bit first, then you can always do that. So this doesn't actually affect anyone who doesn't like it, right?



True, you can totally play as if it works that way.

Well, with 1 caveat: if supply bases would be refill stations there would be no end to the amount of refill stations you could plonk down on one line.
Realistically anyway. It would become way less intuitive that Supply Bases can only cater to 1 truck stations's trucks once.

Maybe players who want it working differently want to string lots of 'gas stations' for unlimited dirt road logistics, but I would think that breaks too much of the finer points and gameplay of the whole logistics system.
So, not a good idea imo: keep them as they are.

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RE: Are Supply Bases working as intended? - 6/30/2020 11:43:43 AM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW


quote:

ORIGINAL: WCG


quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

Ok, now you upgrade to Sealed Roads: relocate Supply Bases?



Yes, that's probably the critical point, for me.

Besides, if a player doesn't want to put Supply Bases right next to their city - or right on top of their truck station, when it's outside of a city - don't do it. Nothing requires a player to do that.

If it makes more sense to you to top off a truck's gas tank after it's traveled a little bit first, then you can always do that. So this doesn't actually affect anyone who doesn't like it, right?



True, you can totally play as if it works that way.

Well, with 1 caveat: if supply bases would be refill stations there would be no end to the amount of refill stations you could plonk down on one line.


1 integer that tracks how much refilling you already had.
Indeed, we could recycle the "extension points" integer for that one...

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RE: Are Supply Bases working as intended? - 6/30/2020 11:52:32 AM   
WCG

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

if supply bases would be refill stations there would be no end to the amount of refill stations you could plonk down on one line.



True. But on the other hand, supplying refill stations also takes logistics (in RL). Hauling gasoline to a supply dumb takes gasoline, takes trucks, takes truck drivers. At some point, the cost might tend to outweigh the gain.

At least, if I look at it that way, it makes sense that they're limited in number. A truck station is different, since it's a much bigger deal to build a truck station. It requires a major investment in people and resources.

Obviously, this is always going to be a game, not a simulation of reality, but that's how I look at it. And so, it seems plausible enough to me - plausible enough for a game.



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RE: Are Supply Bases working as intended? - 6/30/2020 4:16:14 PM   
Destragon

 

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The latest beta changes Supply Bases in pretty much exactly the way I was expecting. I think this is gonna make them more intuitive and make placing them down more interesting of a decision.

"-Changed the way Supply Bases are giving extension. They now only give extension points upto the point normal action points have already been used. This makes them function as actually intended."

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RE: Are Supply Bases working as intended? - 6/30/2020 4:50:54 PM   
GodwinW


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I wonder if they can now refill trucks many times over or not.

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RE: Are Supply Bases working as intended? - 6/30/2020 5:09:14 PM   
Jdane


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I'm having somewhat a hard time parsing the sentence in the changelog. Am I to assume if one were to place the Supply Base in a hex needing only say 30 Truck Action Points to be reached, it will only add back 30 Bonus Action Points? In other words, that placing a Supply Base before a point at which at least 50 Action Points have been spent would be sub-optimal?

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RE: Are Supply Bases working as intended? - 6/30/2020 5:39:32 PM   
actrade

 

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I've been following this thread closely as the difference location of truck stations and supply bases continues to confuse me. Can anyone verbally or graphically show 1. how it is intended to work, including any changes in the most recent beta and 2. How it actually works?

My understanding right now in 1.04 is that you may as well put a supply base right next to your SHQ and it isn't the "extension depot" that you intuitively would suspect? I think I understand how the truck stations work. Just look at the hex before truck points begins to fall and slap one up, but confused over supply bases. Thanks in advance!

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RE: Are Supply Bases working as intended? - 6/30/2020 5:42:04 PM   
Tchey


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quote:


"-Changed the way Supply Bases are giving extension. They now only give extension points upto the point normal action points have already been used. This makes them function as actually intended."


I really can’t understand this point.
What does it do ingame now ?
How to use it in a "good" way ?

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RE: Are Supply Bases working as intended? - 6/30/2020 6:07:14 PM   
jwarrenw13

 

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Yes, could someone give me a simple explanation for how to best use supply bases now, or whether to use them at all? I've read all this and I'm still confused but apparently not the only one. Supply bases for dummies version would be helpful for me. Thanks.

< Message edited by jwarrenw13 -- 6/30/2020 6:47:46 PM >

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RE: Are Supply Bases working as intended? - 6/30/2020 6:14:42 PM   
76mm


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Yeah, so how are supply bases "actually intended" to work? Totally confused...

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RE: Are Supply Bases working as intended? - 6/30/2020 6:48:24 PM   
jwarrenw13

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Yeah, so how are supply bases "actually intended" to work? Totally confused...


Maybe intended to work as well as how they actually work in 1.04, lol.

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RE: Are Supply Bases working as intended? - 6/30/2020 7:23:14 PM   
GodwinW


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My take on what's written there (will start a game maybe tomorrow, maybe late this evening so then I'll know I guess):

"-Changed the way Supply Bases are giving extension. They now only give extension points upto the point normal action points have already been used. This makes them function as actually intended."

They give EXT points up to a maximum amount which is determined by the normal truck AP points that are spent (so maximum AP - current AP = max EXT points).

Seems like a straightforward enough sentence to me.

So yes: you have a max tank and supply stations are gas stations refilling your tank.
No more convenient jerrycans.
I am skeptical about this change :p

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RE: Are Supply Bases working as intended? - 6/30/2020 7:48:37 PM   
jwarrenw13

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

My take on what's written there (will start a game maybe tomorrow, maybe late this evening so then I'll know I guess):

"-Changed the way Supply Bases are giving extension. They now only give extension points upto the point normal action points have already been used. This makes them function as actually intended."

They give EXT points up to a maximum amount which is determined by the normal truck AP points that are spent (so maximum AP - current AP = max EXT points).

Seems like a straightforward enough sentence to me.

So yes: you have a max tank and supply stations are gas stations refilling your tank.
No more convenient jerrycans.
I am skeptical about this change :p


Still not simple enough for me. I'm just an old grunt. Does that mean supply bases A) extend length of your supply line, B) provide more supplies to the end of your supply line, or C) both?

Also where is optimum placement along the supply line. There seems to be disagreement and confusion there, too.



Thanks.

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RE: Are Supply Bases working as intended? - 6/30/2020 8:11:28 PM   
Falke

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13

Still not simple enough for me. I'm just an old grunt. Does that mean supply bases A) extend length of your supply line, B) provide more supplies to the end of your supply line, or C) both?

Also where is optimum placement along the supply line. There seems to be disagreement and confusion there, too.

Thanks.


The answer is A) but limited to the amount already travelled. With Dirt road the optimum for Base 1 is 5-10 hexes from the source. For absolute min/Maxers it will mean destroying and rebuilding supply bases as you upgrade to sealed or the level of the base. A base 2 at 5 hexes will give no benefit over that of a base 1

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RE: Are Supply Bases working as intended? - 6/30/2020 8:50:37 PM   
GodwinW


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Another problem is administrative strain.
I am not sure whether Supply Bases contribute to it, but if so that's another thing to keep in mind.

To jwarrenw13:

It's a refill. So you need to put the supply base I (which gives 50 points) at a spot where 50 AP points have already been used otherwise you are not benefiting fully from the supply base.

< Message edited by GodwinW -- 6/30/2020 8:53:02 PM >

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RE: Are Supply Bases working as intended? - 6/30/2020 9:08:13 PM   
Malevolence


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This provides a perspective...

Where do I put a Supply Base?


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RE: Are Supply Bases working as intended? - 6/30/2020 11:42:11 PM   
Destragon

 

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If someone still didn't understand the change, here is a small example:
This supply base could potentially replenish 50 movement points, but because the logistics path has only spent 20 movement points so far when it reached the supply base, it is only able to replenish 20.


In the old version, it would have given 50 extra movement points, no matter how many movement points the logistics path has already used up.
They used to give extra movement points for the logistics trucks, now they only replenish spent movement points, which means you need to put your supply base farther away from your truck station to make it more effective.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

I wonder if they can now refill trucks many times over or not.

I just tested it and it seems to still be 1 supply base per truck station.

< Message edited by Destragon -- 7/1/2020 12:12:46 AM >

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RE: Are Supply Bases working as intended? - 7/1/2020 12:56:40 AM   
actrade

 

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Thanks for the picture...helps alot!

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RE: Are Supply Bases working as intended? - 7/1/2020 10:21:40 AM   
GodwinW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Destragon

quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

I wonder if they can now refill trucks many times over or not.

I just tested it and it seems to still be 1 supply base per truck station.


Thanks! Appreciate that :)

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