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Naval combat bug? - 6/24/2020 11:28:34 PM   
magic87966


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Or is this just a horrible die roll?
The Greek fleet was in port and had already "bottomed". Fleets that bottom can still be sunk if you get a 5th hit. I sent 2 Italian subs to attack. Surprise was achieved. I know that Italian subs are incredibly weak but...

1) This is a crazy result. Both subs sunk?
2) How does a "bottomed" fleet counterattack?
3) How does a "bottomed" fleet leave the harbor?




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RE: Naval combat bug? - 6/25/2020 3:29:50 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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This happened against me. Were both subs damaged Magic? I know you took some sub hits attacking my UK Fleet the turn before. But it does seem a bit odd.

As an aside (sorry to hijack your thread Magic), I still say that Greece falls too easily. My UK fleet was patrolling off the coast of Greece the turn before this. Magic's suicide sub attacks reduced my fleet efficiency by quite a bit. I considered hanging around for one more turn, but instead returned to port. Even if I had stayed, it would only have delayed Magic's invasion of Greece for a turn (unless I burned an oiler). So this is the situation facing me at the start of my turn. The two blacked out units to the NW of Athens are high strength German armour. The unit SW of Athens is an 8 strength Italian Mtn Corps. There are several Italian and German bombers in range of Athens. I contemplated trying to move a UK corps into Athens and moving the Greek defender a hex NW. But there was little chance that my transported corps would not be sunk by the Axis Air. And even if it did make it, how long would it survive? Oh yeah he also invaded Crete.

I have been told that it is easy to make the Axis pay for invading Greece. I would appreciate being told what I should have done.



< Message edited by Harrybanana -- 6/25/2020 3:30:59 AM >

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RE: Naval combat bug? - 6/25/2020 2:39:37 PM   
Alvaro Sousa


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There have been very few successful port attacks by naval units in WW2. Midgets had partial success or total failures. Scapa Flow was pretty much luck and timing.

So you are taking 2 subs and trying to attack a fortified port vs a patrol group.

The port defenses came online and blew you away. I don't remember the size of the Athens port but it's large. You just don't attack a small group of ships protected by a large port.

When would you take the risk? When you have 9 surface groups attacking a fortified port with 5 surface groups. The idea is to obliterate the fleet while accepting extra losses spread out.

Just by that same measure no one should be putting a mid to large size carrier fleet in a 2 size port. That is asking to get suck without flying.

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RE: Naval combat bug? - 6/25/2020 4:55:59 PM   
baloo7777


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About Greece... against a pbem opponent I placed the entire British Med Fleet/w a Carrier on patrol in the water hex adjacent to Athens, and my opponent invaded with 4 Italian units, one on each beach adjacent to my fleet, one at the port on the SW of Greece, and one on Crete. My fleet just sat there and never even tried to intercept or launch air attacks against any of these. I have never seen an intercepted invasion in any of 3 pbem games or in the games vs the AI I've played. I realize luck and dice rolls are involved, and my few experiences are anecdotal at best, but the feeling I get (rightly or wrongly) is that invasions are far too easy. This is irritating in a European Theater simulation but would be a deal-breaker in the Pacific.

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RE: Naval combat bug? - 6/25/2020 5:41:05 PM   
Alvaro Sousa


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Ok I just tested it. It is working correct. I put a CV fleet out there it correctly intercepted 2 of the 4 invasion fleets. One had escorts and I didn't sink anything, the other had one transport and I sunk it.

The other 2 came across. I ran out of operation points to intercept the units.

If you want to block that invasion or at least make it very costly place a CV force and a surface force in the area. That gives you 4 interceptions. The Italians won't know which fleet is which and it will cost them dearly to invade the area.

Keep in mind historically the Italians did is stupidly. If you attack Greece as the Italians did you will run into a wall. In WarPlan they invest into landing craft and take a chance their fleet gets destroyed.

In my game I invaded Greece as the Italians and the Germans from Bulgaria protecting my naval assets with air power. The UK fleet paid dearly. It was a massive air-naval battle. He withdrew. But if I didn't have the air units in Bulgaria he would have wiped the floor with me.

I am still considering some other things too.

< Message edited by Alvaro Sousa -- 6/25/2020 5:48:55 PM >


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RE: Naval combat bug? - 6/25/2020 5:49:34 PM   
Alvaro Sousa


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Also you only need to delay the conquering of Greece beyond March 1941 not prevent it all together

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RE: Naval combat bug? - 6/26/2020 12:04:39 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: baloo7777

About Greece... against a pbem opponent I placed the entire British Med Fleet/w a Carrier on patrol in the water hex adjacent to Athens, and my opponent invaded with 4 Italian units, one on each beach adjacent to my fleet, one at the port on the SW of Greece, and one on Crete. My fleet just sat there and never even tried to intercept or launch air attacks against any of these. I have never seen an intercepted invasion in any of 3 pbem games or in the games vs the AI I've played. I realize luck and dice rolls are involved, and my few experiences are anecdotal at best, but the feeling I get (rightly or wrongly) is that invasions are far too easy. This is irritating in a European Theater simulation but would be a deal-breaker in the Pacific.



Was this our game? If so the reason your fleets didn't intercept is because Italy and the UK were not at war at the time of the invasion.

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RE: Naval combat bug? - 6/26/2020 12:15:28 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

Also you only need to delay the conquering of Greece beyond March 1941 not prevent it all together


I appreciate that. But I think if the Axis player is competent (as you were in your game and my opponent is in mine) there is very little the Allied player can do to stop the Axis from conquering Greece before March 41. The best they can hope for is to hurt them some; but against a good player the UK will get hurt even more. What could I have done in the game above? Even if the Italian invasion could have been stopped by the RN, the Axis still would have had two German armour within 2 hexes of Athens and multiple bombers in range. Again, if anyone has a solution I would love to hear it.

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RE: Naval combat bug? - 6/26/2020 1:10:16 AM   
Alvaro Sousa


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Not true it depends on France. I conquered France too late then didn't get enough clear turns in the med. He held me off till May.
In our mirror game he got France in July and jumped on them in August and built ahead.

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RE: Naval combat bug? - 6/26/2020 1:10:46 AM   
Alvaro Sousa


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I would just DOW on Italy as the Allies so you can stop it. I didnt think about it this game but I won't forget the next.

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RE: Naval combat bug? - 6/26/2020 2:22:31 AM   
sveint


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I very much enjoy the Greek war as it is. Lots of back and forth and many possible strategies on both sides.

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RE: Naval combat bug? - 6/26/2020 3:29:50 AM   
baloo7777


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana


quote:

ORIGINAL: baloo7777

About Greece... against a pbem opponent I placed the entire British Med Fleet/w a Carrier on patrol in the water hex adjacent to Athens, and my opponent invaded with 4 Italian units, one on each beach adjacent to my fleet, one at the port on the SW of Greece, and one on Crete. My fleet just sat there and never even tried to intercept or launch air attacks against any of these. I have never seen an intercepted invasion in any of 3 pbem games or in the games vs the AI I've played. I realize luck and dice rolls are involved, and my few experiences are anecdotal at best, but the feeling I get (rightly or wrongly) is that invasions are far too easy. This is irritating in a European Theater simulation but would be a deal-breaker in the Pacific.



Was this our game? If so the reason your fleets didn't intercept is because Italy and the UK were not at war at the time of the invasion.


Doesn't Italy join the Axis the turn after Paris falls? Wouldn't that make them automatically at war with the British?

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RE: Naval combat bug? - 6/26/2020 7:03:09 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: baloo7777


quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana


quote:

ORIGINAL: baloo7777

About Greece... against a pbem opponent I placed the entire British Med Fleet/w a Carrier on patrol in the water hex adjacent to Athens, and my opponent invaded with 4 Italian units, one on each beach adjacent to my fleet, one at the port on the SW of Greece, and one on Crete. My fleet just sat there and never even tried to intercept or launch air attacks against any of these. I have never seen an intercepted invasion in any of 3 pbem games or in the games vs the AI I've played. I realize luck and dice rolls are involved, and my few experiences are anecdotal at best, but the feeling I get (rightly or wrongly) is that invasions are far too easy. This is irritating in a European Theater simulation but would be a deal-breaker in the Pacific.



Was this our game? If so the reason your fleets didn't intercept is because Italy and the UK were not at war at the time of the invasion.


Doesn't Italy join the Axis the turn after Paris falls? Wouldn't that make them automatically at war with the British?


No. They join the Axis in the sense that other Axis units can enter their territory and vice versa. But they are not at War until they DOW the UK (and France if France is still in it) or vice versa.

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RE: Naval combat bug? - 6/26/2020 7:15:09 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

Not true it depends on France. I conquered France too late then didn't get enough clear turns in the med. He held me off till May.
In our mirror game he got France in July and jumped on them in August and built ahead.


You are correct that if France holds out long enough it may make it difficult to capture Athens before March 41. But in 3 of my 4 games played so far France has been conquered by July. I admit I am still a beginner at this game, but I think even I could conquer France by the end of July or the first August turn against all but the most skilled players. The only exception would be if I didn't get a single cold turn in March or April. And since you are planing on weakening France (by restricting territorial units moving home) I suspect competent players will generally conquer France by the end of June.

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RE: Naval combat bug? - 6/26/2020 7:26:26 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

I would just DOW on Italy as the Allies so you can stop it. I didnt think about it this game but I won't forget the next.


I did DOW Italy. But how does that allow me to stop it? I stationed the RN off the coast of Greece which delayed his invasion for one turn. But he used that turn to suicide attack me with his subs. This significantly reduced the effectiveness of my fleet. I could have hung around for one more turn and risked the low efficiency, but than I would have had to burn oilers to stay longer. In any event, it would not have mattered if I had stopped the Italian invasion as he had 2 good strength panzer corps on Athens doorstep after one turn that came barreling down from Albania. people keep telling me there is a way to stop this or at least punish the Axis; but I have yet to see it in an AAR against a competent Axis player.

Just to be clear this is not a deal breaker for me. Just my opinion that it is not stoppable and in fact is relatively easy for the Axis. I just think it should be harder is all.

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RE: Naval combat bug? - 6/26/2020 7:30:32 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint

I very much enjoy the Greek war as it is. Lots of back and forth and many possible strategies on both sides.


Having read your AARs I am sure that as the Allies you could stop me from conquering Greece by March 41. In fact I would love to see you play an AAR as the Allies where you do this (just not against me). Then maybe I can see how it is done and that will change my mind and shut me up.

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RE: Naval combat bug? - 6/26/2020 7:45:09 AM   
sveint


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There is no way to stop panzers from taking Greece. But you can delay it and make it costly. Don't forget you can send a British corps to Athens.

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RE: Naval combat bug? - 6/26/2020 12:48:57 PM   
Alvaro Sousa


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Did you DOW before they invaded? You need to put out 2 fleets. I'd put one CV and 1 surface or 2 surface + a small CV fleet.

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RE: Naval combat bug? - 6/26/2020 4:14:59 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint

There is no way to stop panzers from taking Greece. But you can delay it and make it costly. Don't forget you can send a British corps to Athens.


Yes, I had a UK Corps ready to send to Athens. But 3 or 4 Axis bombers were in range of Athens. So sending in the corps unescorted would have been suicide. Should I have sent it in escorted by elements of the RN? Should I have sent in destroyer units one at a time until all his interceptions were used up? It was the first September turn when he invaded Greece. Since the Fall of France most of the German Army has been lined up in the channel ports looking to invade the UK. This made me hesitant to send too much of the RN to the Mediterranean. It may have been a bluff but, of course, I didn't know this in July which is when I would have had to send more RN units to Greece.

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RE: Naval combat bug? - 6/26/2020 4:28:35 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

Did you DOW before they invaded? You need to put out 2 fleets. I'd put one CV and 1 surface or 2 surface + a small CV fleet.


I did DOW before he invaded and I stationed a RN fleet off the coast of Greece. This caused him to delay his planned invasion by 1 turn (at least I am pretty sure it did). But you can't keep the RN fleets patrolling off the coast of Greece indefinitely unless you burn oilers. The more fleets you have, the more oilers you have to burn. IMHO using several fleets is risky. The Italian Navy isn't entirely impotent and with air units in Rhodes, Albania and Southern Italy it isn't possible to station your fleets outside all of the Axis air cover. Besides, as I said above, I felt compelled to keep a good chunk of the RN in the UK as my opponent was threatening a Sealion. But perhaps I should have been more bold as you say. I would love to see an AAR between two good players where the Allies give the Axis a bloody nose for pulling this.

Oh yeah, my delaying his invasion by 1 turn did have some positive effects. Most of his submarine fleet was sunk or badly damaged attacking my RN Fleet and the Greek destroyer. I then got lucky with the weather as it rained in Greece the turn after his invasion. As a consequence he was unable to capture Athens that turn and lost some strength attacking it. Of course Athens fell the next turn. So all in all Greece lasted 2 turns longer than if I hadn't delayed him.

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RE: Naval combat bug? - 6/26/2020 5:36:32 PM   
Alvaro Sousa


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So it seems he counter planned. Which means you did the best you could.

Most importantly you forced him to expend resources. While that isn't obvious upfront it does contribute.

You should also have 3 oilers available. I like 5 myself

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