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RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edition)

 
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RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/25/2020 12:14:46 AM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 868
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Boston, London, Hoboken, now Warwick, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

The fact the AF is procuring more F-15s is pretty negative for the F-35. I saw a F-35 at an airshow last year. The plane can fly. I have concerns that is too fragile for CAS compared to the A-10.


This is symptomatic of the kind of one-dimensional thinking that Alfred pointed out earlier in the thread with his "orchestra" comparison.

You're not using the F-35 for CAS, you're using the F-35 to co-ordinate the drones that provide the CAS. See the XQ-58 for an example.

Well thank you for calling me one dimensional. And not addressing the additional F-15 procurement. You think that came out of nowhere? If you want to control more drones get a dedicated bird, not a one pilot fighter.


As pointed out previously, having specialised aircraft may not by default be a cheaper solution as now you've a larger air force and the costs that come with it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

I think the low readiness states reported above might be exagerated.. perhaps even a ruse for potentiell enemies...

Just per coincidence I found this article on a German aviation site, reporting problems with F-35 "OBIGGS (On Board Inert Gas Generation System)":

https://aerobuzz.de/militar/f-35-lightning-ii-muessen-sich-von-gewittern-fernhalten/

But I also have read F-35 was good in A2A combat in "red flags exercises" I guess vs. F15/16(?)
That it´s weapons are inside gives F-35 of course an advantage compared to planes having all payload on pylons.. these add of course weight and drag. Also eg. the outboard fuel tanks need to be jettisoned in A2A. Or potentially bombs/ground attack missiles too. F-35 has an advantage carrying everything inside.
Downside is low payload, for my taste TOO low. Also would weapons bay opening perhaps screw with stealth?




Depends how you define A2A. Dogfighting? Nope, it is "meat on the table" for even Gen II Russian planes.


When was the last time air-to-air combat occurred where dogfighting actively occurred?

The characteristics key in dogfighting, while still desirable in an airframe, have much less importance now than previously.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

The fact the AF is procuring more F-15s is pretty negative for the F-35. I saw a F-35 at an airshow last year. The plane can fly. I have concerns that is too fragile for CAS compared to the A-10.


This is symptomatic of the kind of one-dimensional thinking that Alfred pointed out earlier in the thread with his "orchestra" comparison.

You're not using the F-35 for CAS, you're using the F-35 to co-ordinate the drones that provide the CAS. See the XQ-58 for an example.



You don't need a $100,000,000.00 plane to guide drones to target. A larger drone can do that-but there is no profit in that, is there.


Perhaps so, but if you've got all your drone pilots in the same place (let's say a control room on a CV) then a single missile hit and they might be out of action.

If you've got ten F-35's up, there's ten F-35s, each with a semi-autonomous mini-air wing of drones.

That's the kind of war the F-35 is aimed at fighting.

Ah yes, the US learned the hard way in Vietnam that going all missile and no cannons didn't work out too well. Just like all computer and not enough humans will likely not work out in the future. As for the bigger airforce argument, procure a few less F-35s and get some next gen AWACS. Air Force brass has ALWAYS been drawn to fighters. If keeping things cost effective is important then why are the 100 odd F-22s still in operation? There's almost no way that makes fiscal sense.

And the single pilot is going to fly the plane and manage the drones.....ok.

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 91
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/25/2020 12:47:39 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8486
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

The fact the AF is procuring more F-15s is pretty negative for the F-35. I saw a F-35 at an airshow last year. The plane can fly. I have concerns that is too fragile for CAS compared to the A-10.


This is symptomatic of the kind of one-dimensional thinking that Alfred pointed out earlier in the thread with his "orchestra" comparison.

You're not using the F-35 for CAS, you're using the F-35 to co-ordinate the drones that provide the CAS. See the XQ-58 for an example.

Well thank you for calling me one dimensional. And not addressing the additional F-15 procurement. You think that came out of nowhere? If you want to control more drones get a dedicated bird, not a one pilot fighter.


As pointed out previously, having specialised aircraft may not by default be a cheaper solution as now you've a larger air force and the costs that come with it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

I think the low readiness states reported above might be exagerated.. perhaps even a ruse for potentiell enemies...

Just per coincidence I found this article on a German aviation site, reporting problems with F-35 "OBIGGS (On Board Inert Gas Generation System)":

https://aerobuzz.de/militar/f-35-lightning-ii-muessen-sich-von-gewittern-fernhalten/

But I also have read F-35 was good in A2A combat in "red flags exercises" I guess vs. F15/16(?)
That it´s weapons are inside gives F-35 of course an advantage compared to planes having all payload on pylons.. these add of course weight and drag. Also eg. the outboard fuel tanks need to be jettisoned in A2A. Or potentially bombs/ground attack missiles too. F-35 has an advantage carrying everything inside.
Downside is low payload, for my taste TOO low. Also would weapons bay opening perhaps screw with stealth?




Depends how you define A2A. Dogfighting? Nope, it is "meat on the table" for even Gen II Russian planes.


When was the last time air-to-air combat occurred where dogfighting actively occurred?

The characteristics key in dogfighting, while still desirable in an airframe, have much less importance now than previously.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

The fact the AF is procuring more F-15s is pretty negative for the F-35. I saw a F-35 at an airshow last year. The plane can fly. I have concerns that is too fragile for CAS compared to the A-10.


This is symptomatic of the kind of one-dimensional thinking that Alfred pointed out earlier in the thread with his "orchestra" comparison.

You're not using the F-35 for CAS, you're using the F-35 to co-ordinate the drones that provide the CAS. See the XQ-58 for an example.



You don't need a $100,000,000.00 plane to guide drones to target. A larger drone can do that-but there is no profit in that, is there.


Perhaps so, but if you've got all your drone pilots in the same place (let's say a control room on a CV) then a single missile hit and they might be out of action.

If you've got ten F-35's up, there's ten F-35s, each with a semi-autonomous mini-air wing of drones.

That's the kind of war the F-35 is aimed at fighting.

Ah yes, the US learned the hard way in Vietnam that going all missile and no cannons didn't work out too well. Just like all computer and not enough humans will likely not work out in the future. As for the bigger airforce argument, procure a few less F-35s and get some next gen AWACS. Air Force brass has ALWAYS been drawn to fighters. If keeping things cost effective is important then why are the 100 odd F-22s still in operation? There's almost no way that makes fiscal sense.

And the single pilot is going to fly the plane and manage the drones.....ok.


The pilot flies the plane and the computer manages the drones.

_____________________________

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(in reply to fcooke)
Post #: 92
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/25/2020 1:18:47 AM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2938
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

The fact the AF is procuring more F-15s is pretty negative for the F-35. I saw a F-35 at an airshow last year. The plane can fly. I have concerns that is too fragile for CAS compared to the A-10.


This is symptomatic of the kind of one-dimensional thinking that Alfred pointed out earlier in the thread with his "orchestra" comparison.

You're not using the F-35 for CAS, you're using the F-35 to co-ordinate the drones that provide the CAS. See the XQ-58 for an example.

Well thank you for calling me one dimensional. And not addressing the additional F-15 procurement. You think that came out of nowhere? If you want to control more drones get a dedicated bird, not a one pilot fighter.


As pointed out previously, having specialised aircraft may not by default be a cheaper solution as now you've a larger air force and the costs that come with it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

I think the low readiness states reported above might be exagerated.. perhaps even a ruse for potentiell enemies...

Just per coincidence I found this article on a German aviation site, reporting problems with F-35 "OBIGGS (On Board Inert Gas Generation System)":

https://aerobuzz.de/militar/f-35-lightning-ii-muessen-sich-von-gewittern-fernhalten/

But I also have read F-35 was good in A2A combat in "red flags exercises" I guess vs. F15/16(?)
That it´s weapons are inside gives F-35 of course an advantage compared to planes having all payload on pylons.. these add of course weight and drag. Also eg. the outboard fuel tanks need to be jettisoned in A2A. Or potentially bombs/ground attack missiles too. F-35 has an advantage carrying everything inside.
Downside is low payload, for my taste TOO low. Also would weapons bay opening perhaps screw with stealth?




Depends how you define A2A. Dogfighting? Nope, it is "meat on the table" for even Gen II Russian planes.


When was the last time air-to-air combat occurred where dogfighting actively occurred?

The characteristics key in dogfighting, while still desirable in an airframe, have much less importance now than previously.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

The fact the AF is procuring more F-15s is pretty negative for the F-35. I saw a F-35 at an airshow last year. The plane can fly. I have concerns that is too fragile for CAS compared to the A-10.


This is symptomatic of the kind of one-dimensional thinking that Alfred pointed out earlier in the thread with his "orchestra" comparison.

You're not using the F-35 for CAS, you're using the F-35 to co-ordinate the drones that provide the CAS. See the XQ-58 for an example.



You don't need a $100,000,000.00 plane to guide drones to target. A larger drone can do that-but there is no profit in that, is there.


Perhaps so, but if you've got all your drone pilots in the same place (let's say a control room on a CV) then a single missile hit and they might be out of action.

If you've got ten F-35's up, there's ten F-35s, each with a semi-autonomous mini-air wing of drones.

That's the kind of war the F-35 is aimed at fighting.

Ah yes, the US learned the hard way in Vietnam that going all missile and no cannons didn't work out too well. Just like all computer and not enough humans will likely not work out in the future. As for the bigger airforce argument, procure a few less F-35s and get some next gen AWACS. Air Force brass has ALWAYS been drawn to fighters. If keeping things cost effective is important then why are the 100 odd F-22s still in operation? There's almost no way that makes fiscal sense.

And the single pilot is going to fly the plane and manage the drones.....ok.


Still too one dimensional :)

The pilot isn't going to manage the drones, he's going to direct the drones. If you've ever seen the 80's classic Firefox, think along those lines, just with less mind-reading and more drop-down menus.

As for more AWACS and less fighters, if you turn off all the electronics on a AWACS and an F-35, which is more useful? The fighter airframe or the lumbering transport plane with a large radar dome stacked above? Which could carry out a wider missions in a combat zone in a pinch?

Ten AWACS aren't much good if you need a 500kg bomb delivered somewhere five minutes ago, but one F-35 might be.

(in reply to fcooke)
Post #: 93
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/25/2020 11:26:40 AM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 1823
Joined: 9/24/2010
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Some people are funny, bringing up Awacs and saying "you don´t need cannons anymore"

Awacs can detect even smaller targets at huge ranges and serve as a command post in the air, it directs air assets to counter threats.

The Vietnam thing was already brought up, here another example, the Royal Navy had almost no "close in defense" anymore in the Falklands war era. They relied on missiles, however the Argentine airforce proved to be a brave foe and came close enough to severall ships to drop oldstyle ironbombs on them. Plus managed some Exocet hits - as most of you know they lost some ships there. As first meassure (until more expensive and capable CIWS systems could be installedd) they used oldschool 20mm cannons and perhaps also a bunch of HMGs. Which clearly is better than nothing, pumping lead in the air instead sitting duck.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close-in_weapon_system

Also what are you gonna do, if all missiles in your plane are expended? You need to rtb, but if their are still enemies airborne closing in? Then you need to run or fight the oldschool way. Luckily the F-35 has a gun, as it is not fast enough to run from most fighters, all Russian types plus Eurofighter/Rafale are faster. Also what if you encounter some lumbering transports, helis etc. You spend missiles for such targets instead using a gun? You shot down 2 helis with your missiles now most of them gone than enemy fighters appear still having full load of missiles..

But seriously this is a WW2 forum, so I am not blaming people having not much clue about "modern" combat, instead repeating phrases put out like "guns are obsolete" or "only aircraft with stealth are the future". Tbh honest I have not myself at least after 2000 or so. Therefore I know cold war weapons quite well and guess most lessons still apply

Well at least they will remember you:


< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 9/25/2020 11:40:18 AM >

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 94
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/25/2020 12:01:50 PM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 1823
Joined: 9/24/2010
Status: offline
And btw. I think the F-35 is better than some make it to be...when the main faults are ironed out, the software bugs corrected etc. in perhaps 2-3 years it should be very capable. Just not for all the roles it is meant to be...

For many roles right now I prefer these:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijs6csP5UbY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woCSL6yLy4k

Btw, I find such videos quite relaxing :)

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 9/25/2020 12:35:35 PM >

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 95
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/25/2020 1:52:38 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2938
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Some people are funny, bringing up Awacs and saying "you don´t need cannons anymore"

Awacs can detect even smaller targets at huge ranges and serve as a command post in the air, it directs air assets to counter threats.



Yes, but it can't do diddly-squat on it's own.

quote:

The Vietnam thing was already brought up, here another example, the Royal Navy had almost no "close in defense" anymore in the Falklands war era. They relied on missiles, however the Argentine airforce proved to be a brave foe and came close enough to severall ships to drop oldstyle ironbombs on them. Plus managed some Exocet hits - as most of you know they lost some ships there. As first meassure (until more expensive and capable CIWS systems could be installedd) they used oldschool 20mm cannons and perhaps also a bunch of HMGs. Which clearly is better than nothing, pumping lead in the air instead sitting duck.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close-in_weapon_system

Also what are you gonna do, if all missiles in your plane are expended? You need to rtb, but if their are still enemies airborne closing in? Then you need to run or fight the oldschool way. Luckily the F-35 has a gun, as it is not fast enough to run from most fighters, all Russian types plus Eurofighter/Rafale are faster. Also what if you encounter some lumbering transports, helis etc. You spend missiles for such targets instead using a gun? You shot down 2 helis with your missiles now most of them gone than enemy fighters appear still having full load of missiles..

But seriously this is a WW2 forum, so I am not blaming people having not much clue about "modern" combat, instead repeating phrases put out like "guns are obsolete" or "only aircraft with stealth are the future". Tbh honest I have not myself at least after 2000 or so. Therefore I know cold war weapons quite well and guess most lessons still apply


To be honest, a better comparison would be to removing the deck guns from submarines.

Yes, they do have some value, and yes, they would be useful in specific situations. However, the overall nature of warfare in that space has shifted so dramatically that those specific situations are effectively never going to arise.

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 96
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/25/2020 3:22:52 PM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 868
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Boston, London, Hoboken, now Warwick, NY
Status: offline
I've said it before but will repeat again. You cannot fully rely on computers to get the job done. Software is written for specific use cases. When the software does not understand the use case it fails. And treating a f-35 as a mission control bird, is frankly stupid.

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 97
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/25/2020 3:46:02 PM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 1823
Joined: 9/24/2010
Status: offline
Interview with Tony "Pax" Paxton on the Tornado GR1 & F2/F3:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPCa1wsnjBM

This guy also flew Lightnings, which had no guns for a while, which was then corrected. This channel is very interesting he interviews with pilots (or ex) of MANY coldwar + still actual planes.

Here a 2 comments under the vid:
"'ve never ever understood this concept in the 60s that dog fighting was over so remove the guns.

Even if they were right and you are only to intercept bombers 20mm cannons would still work on bombers after you fired your missiles. It then gives the fighter the ability to bring down one or two more bombers far cheaper than missiles!

I've never understood why they believed cannons wouldn't have any effect on bombers and not just for fighters.

And they were wrong about dog fighting."

"Also : You can't dodge or jam a 20/30mm shell."


(in reply to fcooke)
Post #: 98
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/25/2020 5:28:42 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2938
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

I've said it before but will repeat again. You cannot fully rely on computers to get the job done. Software is written for specific use cases. When the software does not understand the use case it fails. And treating a f-35 as a mission control bird, is frankly stupid.


There was sufficient computing power in 1969 to put two men on the moon. In the half-century since then, computing power has progressed a little.

The software used won't be as you understand it (that is, written for a specific purpose). Instead, it will be an AI that has been developed through a supervised learning process, and taking general direction from a human operator (i.e "Go here, perform this mission, report every 15 mins).


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Interview with Tony "Pax" Paxton on the Tornado GR1 & F2/F3:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPCa1wsnjBM

This guy also flew Lightnings, which had no guns for a while, which was then corrected. This channel is very interesting he interviews with pilots (or ex) of MANY coldwar + still actual planes.

Here a 2 comments under the vid:
"'ve never ever understood this concept in the 60s that dog fighting was over so remove the guns.

Even if they were right and you are only to intercept bombers 20mm cannons would still work on bombers after you fired your missiles. It then gives the fighter the ability to bring down one or two more bombers far cheaper than missiles!

I've never understood why they believed cannons wouldn't have any effect on bombers and not just for fighters.

And they were wrong about dog fighting."

"Also : You can't dodge or jam a 20/30mm shell."




If we're taking Youtube comments as gospel on this forum then there really isn't much hope left...

(in reply to fcooke)
Post #: 99
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/25/2020 5:56:01 PM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 1823
Joined: 9/24/2010
Status: offline
I copy these cause they mirror my opinion, so I safe also time writing it out myself :)
You disagree fine, but the issue is not relevant for the topic anyway: The F-35 has a cannon

Btw, I wonder where is your gospel coming from when every major airforce disagrees with you (they have guns in almost all of their fighters)





< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 9/25/2020 6:16:50 PM >

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 100
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/25/2020 8:08:29 PM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 868
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From: Boston, London, Hoboken, now Warwick, NY
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MM - like I said before, I know a little bit about software. There really is no such thing as AI YET. There are scripted bits of of code (much like AE). But no computer on the planet can actually 'think'. The IBM chess monster was designed to play chess. Do you really think software can sort out everything going on in air combat situation?

If so, I can suggest some stock purchases. But I am not registered, so your mileage may vary.

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 101
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/25/2020 8:21:01 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2938
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

I copy these cause they mirror my opinion, so I safe also time writing it out myself :)
You disagree fine, but the issue is not relevant for the topic anyway: The F-35 has a cannon

Btw, I wonder where is your gospel coming from when every major airforce disagrees with you (they have guns in almost all of their fighters)



Care to point out where I said that cannons were a bad idea?


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

MM - like I said before, I know a little bit about software. There really is no such thing as AI YET. There are scripted bits of of code (much like AE). But no computer on the planet can actually 'think'. The IBM chess monster was designed to play chess. Do you really think software can sort out everything going on in air combat situation?

If so, I can suggest some stock purchases. But I am not registered, so your mileage may vary.


Your knowledge of software is obviously limited if you think that. There absolutely is AI in the same space as what we're discussing. The most high-profile currently would likely be the autopilot technology developed by Tesla.

Again, that was built using machine learning, so also wrong on it being scripted lines of code.

It absolutely is possible for software to sort out everything going on in air combat simulation, the USAF are hoping to test it next year

https://www.airforcemag.com/air-force-to-test-fighter-drone-against-human-pilot/

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 102
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/25/2020 8:33:45 PM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 868
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From: Boston, London, Hoboken, now Warwick, NY
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If you think AI is ready to go then my understanding of software might be a bit better than yours. And it is scripted. Machines don't learn yet. They recognize patterns - not the same thing as learning. And Tesla tech has resulted in more than one death. And I will put up my understanding of software against yours any day or time.

And in general you may want to learn to be less condescending. It might help you in life overall.

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 103
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/25/2020 8:55:29 PM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

If you think AI is ready to go then my understanding of software might be a bit better than yours.


I don't recall claiming that AI is ready to go, but evidently the USAF are looking towards the testing stage (and IIRC already using it in certain drones.

quote:

And it is scripted. Machines don't learn yet. They recognize patterns - not the same thing as learning. And Tesla tech has resulted in more than one death. And I will put up my understanding of software against yours any day or time.


In which case I'd love it if you could explain to me how machine learning works.

quote:

And in general you may want to learn to be less condescending. It might help you in life overall.


I'm just fine, thank you for your concern :)

< Message edited by mind_messing -- 9/25/2020 8:58:11 PM >

(in reply to fcooke)
Post #: 104
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/25/2020 10:34:41 PM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 868
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From: Boston, London, Hoboken, now Warwick, NY
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Well, in the interest of civility on the forum I am getting out of this this conversation. If you want to debate further you can mail me. You do have an interesting habit of twisting history and what you said or alluded to.

Just saying.

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 105
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/26/2020 6:27:11 PM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1072
Joined: 2/4/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

And btw. I think the F-35 is better than some make it to be...when the main faults are ironed out, the software bugs corrected etc. in perhaps 2-3 years it should be very capable. Just not for all the roles it is meant to be...

For many roles right now I prefer these:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijs6csP5UbY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woCSL6yLy4k

Btw, I find such videos quite relaxing :)



It is slow and can't dogfight. It's payload is limited. All it has going for it is BVR. Even when the "bugs" are gone it will still be slow and can't dogfight.

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 106
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/27/2020 4:03:52 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6291
Joined: 9/28/2006
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Two can play this stupikd game.

1. No Russian or Chinese fighter comes anywhere near close to matching the speed of the slowest ICBM (about 18 Mach). All are to slow to can't catch up to and get into position to destroy an incoming ICBM. Ergo all Russian and Chinese fighters are useless.

2. No Russian or Chinese fighter can match the maneuverability of a Fokker Triplane, or even the less maneuverable Sopwith Camel or the more advanced CR.42. Ergo in a dogfight all Russian and Chinese fighters are useless.

3. No Russian or Chinese fighter has a payload close to matching that of a B-52. Not even that of the much more limited B-29. Ergo, all Russian and Chinese fighters are useless and a waste of money and resources.


Some Americans should thank their lucky stars they don't live and express their amateur military opinions in a country governed by a Stalin clone. The original got fed up with Polikarpov who was reluctant to embrace modern aeronautical developmnents and ultimately paid the price of being sent to the gulag.

Alfred

(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 107
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/27/2020 12:31:56 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8486
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Two can play this stupikd game.

1. No Russian or Chinese fighter comes anywhere near close to matching the speed of the slowest ICBM (about 18 Mach). All are to slow to can't catch up to and get into position to destroy an incoming ICBM. Ergo all Russian and Chinese fighters are useless.

2. No Russian or Chinese fighter can match the maneuverability of a Fokker Triplane, or even the less maneuverable Sopwith Camel or the more advanced CR.42. Ergo in a dogfight all Russian and Chinese fighters are useless.

3. No Russian or Chinese fighter has a payload close to matching that of a B-52. Not even that of the much more limited B-29. Ergo, all Russian and Chinese fighters are useless and a waste of money and resources.


Some Americans should thank their lucky stars they don't live and express their amateur military opinions in a country governed by a Stalin clone. The original got fed up with Polikarpov who was reluctant to embrace modern aeronautical developmnents and ultimately paid the price of being sent to the gulag.

Alfred


+1

Thank you, Alfred.

Joe

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 108
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/29/2020 2:14:49 AM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1072
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Two can play this stupikd game.

1. No Russian or Chinese fighter comes anywhere near close to matching the speed of the slowest ICBM (about 18 Mach). All are to slow to can't catch up to and get into position to destroy an incoming ICBM. Ergo all Russian and Chinese fighters are useless.

2. No Russian or Chinese fighter can match the maneuverability of a Fokker Triplane, or even the less maneuverable Sopwith Camel or the more advanced CR.42. Ergo in a dogfight all Russian and Chinese fighters are useless.

3. No Russian or Chinese fighter has a payload close to matching that of a B-52. Not even that of the much more limited B-29. Ergo, all Russian and Chinese fighters are useless and a waste of money and resources.


Some Americans should thank their lucky stars they don't live and express their amateur military opinions in a country governed by a Stalin clone. The original got fed up with Polikarpov who was reluctant to embrace modern aeronautical developmnents and ultimately paid the price of being sent to the gulag.

Alfred



And hundreds of thousands Americans should curse the day they were born having died for the Monarchy, Comrade Stalin and Mao.

Your thinking is so archaic is it sad, but I bet even you, with your myopic thinking (more like emotions) would trade all those American lives back for on drop of Europeon blood.

Tell me at least that.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 109
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/29/2020 2:27:19 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8486
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Two can play this stupikd game.

1. No Russian or Chinese fighter comes anywhere near close to matching the speed of the slowest ICBM (about 18 Mach). All are to slow to can't catch up to and get into position to destroy an incoming ICBM. Ergo all Russian and Chinese fighters are useless.

2. No Russian or Chinese fighter can match the maneuverability of a Fokker Triplane, or even the less maneuverable Sopwith Camel or the more advanced CR.42. Ergo in a dogfight all Russian and Chinese fighters are useless.

3. No Russian or Chinese fighter has a payload close to matching that of a B-52. Not even that of the much more limited B-29. Ergo, all Russian and Chinese fighters are useless and a waste of money and resources.


Some Americans should thank their lucky stars they don't live and express their amateur military opinions in a country governed by a Stalin clone. The original got fed up with Polikarpov who was reluctant to embrace modern aeronautical developmnents and ultimately paid the price of being sent to the gulag.

Alfred



And hundreds of thousands Americans should curse the day they were born having died for the Monarchy, Comrade Stalin and Mao.

Your thinking is so archaic is it sad, but I bet even you, with your myopic thinking (more like emotions) would trade all those American lives back for on drop of Europeon blood.

Tell me at least that.


I understand, you prefer Adolf Hitler.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 110
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/29/2020 12:05:45 PM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1072
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Two can play this stupikd game.

1. No Russian or Chinese fighter comes anywhere near close to matching the speed of the slowest ICBM (about 18 Mach). All are to slow to can't catch up to and get into position to destroy an incoming ICBM. Ergo all Russian and Chinese fighters are useless.

2. No Russian or Chinese fighter can match the maneuverability of a Fokker Triplane, or even the less maneuverable Sopwith Camel or the more advanced CR.42. Ergo in a dogfight all Russian and Chinese fighters are useless.

3. No Russian or Chinese fighter has a payload close to matching that of a B-52. Not even that of the much more limited B-29. Ergo, all Russian and Chinese fighters are useless and a waste of money and resources.


Some Americans should thank their lucky stars they don't live and express their amateur military opinions in a country governed by a Stalin clone. The original got fed up with Polikarpov who was reluctant to embrace modern aeronautical developmnents and ultimately paid the price of being sent to the gulag.

Alfred



And hundreds of thousands Americans should curse the day they were born having died for the Monarchy, Comrade Stalin and Mao.

Your thinking is so archaic is it sad, but I bet even you, with your myopic thinking (more like emotions) would trade all those American lives back for on drop of Europeon blood.

Tell me at least that.


I understand, you prefer Adolf Hitler.

quote:


RangerJoe
Matrix Legion of Merit




Posts: 7763
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


Fist one to make the nazi-association loses. Congrats.

And no, I don't like Hitler, but by your logic you prefer Stalin and Mao.


(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 111
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/30/2020 11:43:47 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6291
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Two can play this stupikd game.

1. No Russian or Chinese fighter comes anywhere near close to matching the speed of the slowest ICBM (about 18 Mach). All are to slow to can't catch up to and get into position to destroy an incoming ICBM. Ergo all Russian and Chinese fighters are useless.

2. No Russian or Chinese fighter can match the maneuverability of a Fokker Triplane, or even the less maneuverable Sopwith Camel or the more advanced CR.42. Ergo in a dogfight all Russian and Chinese fighters are useless.

3. No Russian or Chinese fighter has a payload close to matching that of a B-52. Not even that of the much more limited B-29. Ergo, all Russian and Chinese fighters are useless and a waste of money and resources.


Some Americans should thank their lucky stars they don't live and express their amateur military opinions in a country governed by a Stalin clone. The original got fed up with Polikarpov who was reluctant to embrace modern aeronautical developmnents and ultimately paid the price of being sent to the gulag.

Alfred



And hundreds of thousands Americans should curse the day they were born having died for the Monarchy, Comrade Stalin and Mao.

Your thinking is so archaic is it sad, but I bet even you, with your myopic thinking (more like emotions) would trade all those American lives back for on drop of Europeon blood.

Tell me at least that.


Not for the first time, more non sequiturs from Rusty1961.

Over the years I've met in person some very bright, well educated Americans. Americans who were well informed on international issues, even issues which did not revolve around America. Yankees or Southerners, mid-West or Pacific coast, Republican or Democrat, the best of them had sharp intellects and could, in conducting a debate, construct a logical argument based on facts. Americans who understood that when debating, some issues are black and white but for most issues, it is the degree of grey which is brought into focus by debate. These are Americans who understand the operation of nuance. They, much like Copernicus who argued that the Earth revolved around the Sun rather than the heavens revolved around the Earth, understand that in a multipolar world all roads do not lead to Washington DC. To be well informed, one simply must attempt to understand other positions.

You are not one of those Americans.

Alfred

(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 112
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 10/1/2020 12:47:18 PM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1072
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Two can play this stupikd game.

1. No Russian or Chinese fighter comes anywhere near close to matching the speed of the slowest ICBM (about 18 Mach). All are to slow to can't catch up to and get into position to destroy an incoming ICBM. Ergo all Russian and Chinese fighters are useless.

2. No Russian or Chinese fighter can match the maneuverability of a Fokker Triplane, or even the less maneuverable Sopwith Camel or the more advanced CR.42. Ergo in a dogfight all Russian and Chinese fighters are useless.

3. No Russian or Chinese fighter has a payload close to matching that of a B-52. Not even that of the much more limited B-29. Ergo, all Russian and Chinese fighters are useless and a waste of money and resources.


Some Americans should thank their lucky stars they don't live and express their amateur military opinions in a country governed by a Stalin clone. The original got fed up with Polikarpov who was reluctant to embrace modern aeronautical developmnents and ultimately paid the price of being sent to the gulag.

Alfred



And hundreds of thousands Americans should curse the day they were born having died for the Monarchy, Comrade Stalin and Mao.

Your thinking is so archaic is it sad, but I bet even you, with your myopic thinking (more like emotions) would trade all those American lives back for on drop of Europeon blood.

Tell me at least that.


Not for the first time, more non sequiturs from Rusty1961.

Over the years I've met in person some very bright, well educated Americans. Americans who were well informed on international issues, even issues which did not revolve around America. Yankees or Southerners, mid-West or Pacific coast, Republican or Democrat, the best of them had sharp intellects and could, in conducting a debate, construct a logical argument based on facts. Americans who understood that when debating, some issues are black and white but for most issues, it is the degree of grey which is brought into focus by debate. These are Americans who understand the operation of nuance. They, much like Copernicus who argued that the Earth revolved around the Sun rather than the heavens revolved around the Earth, understand that in a multipolar world all roads do not lead to Washington DC. To be well informed, one simply must attempt to understand other positions.

You are not one of those Americans.

Alfred


Does this mean we are no longer friends, Alfred?

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 113
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 10/1/2020 11:21:22 PM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1072
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Two can play this stupikd game.

1. No Russian or Chinese fighter comes anywhere near close to matching the speed of the slowest ICBM (about 18 Mach). All are to slow to can't catch up to and get into position to destroy an incoming ICBM. Ergo all Russian and Chinese fighters are useless.

2. No Russian or Chinese fighter can match the maneuverability of a Fokker Triplane, or even the less maneuverable Sopwith Camel or the more advanced CR.42. Ergo in a dogfight all Russian and Chinese fighters are useless.

3. No Russian or Chinese fighter has a payload close to matching that of a B-52. Not even that of the much more limited B-29. Ergo, all Russian and Chinese fighters are useless and a waste of money and resources.


Some Americans should thank their lucky stars they don't live and express their amateur military opinions in a country governed by a Stalin clone. The original got fed up with Polikarpov who was reluctant to embrace modern aeronautical developmnents and ultimately paid the price of being sent to the gulag.

Alfred



And hundreds of thousands Americans should curse the day they were born having died for the Monarchy, Comrade Stalin and Mao.

Your thinking is so archaic is it sad, but I bet even you, with your myopic thinking (more like emotions) would trade all those American lives back for on drop of Europeon blood.

Tell me at least that.


I understand, you prefer Adolf Hitler.



Wrong, that would be you with your Nazi-salute.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 114
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 10/1/2020 11:25:08 PM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1072
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Two can play this stupikd game.

1. No Russian or Chinese fighter comes anywhere near close to matching the speed of the slowest ICBM (about 18 Mach). All are to slow to can't catch up to and get into position to destroy an incoming ICBM. Ergo all Russian and Chinese fighters are useless.

2. No Russian or Chinese fighter can match the maneuverability of a Fokker Triplane, or even the less maneuverable Sopwith Camel or the more advanced CR.42. Ergo in a dogfight all Russian and Chinese fighters are useless.

3. No Russian or Chinese fighter has a payload close to matching that of a B-52. Not even that of the much more limited B-29. Ergo, all Russian and Chinese fighters are useless and a waste of money and resources.


Some Americans should thank their lucky stars they don't live and express their amateur military opinions in a country governed by a Stalin clone. The original got fed up with Polikarpov who was reluctant to embrace modern aeronautical developmnents and ultimately paid the price of being sent to the gulag.

Alfred



And hundreds of thousands Americans should curse the day they were born having died for the Monarchy, Comrade Stalin and Mao.

Your thinking is so archaic is it sad, but I bet even you, with your myopic thinking (more like emotions) would trade all those American lives back for on drop of Europeon blood.

Tell me at least that.


Not for the first time, more non sequiturs from Rusty1961.

Over the years I've met in person some very bright, well educated Americans. Americans who were well informed on international issues, even issues which did not revolve around America. Yankees or Southerners, mid-West or Pacific coast, Republican or Democrat, the best of them had sharp intellects and could, in conducting a debate, construct a logical argument based on facts. Americans who understood that when debating, some issues are black and white but for most issues, it is the degree of grey which is brought into focus by debate. These are Americans who understand the operation of nuance. They, much like Copernicus who argued that the Earth revolved around the Sun rather than the heavens revolved around the Earth, understand that in a multipolar world all roads do not lead to Washington DC. To be well informed, one simply must attempt to understand other positions.

You are not one of those Americans.

Alfred



Hahahahaha! Like I give two-shakes-of-a-lambs tail what some non-American thinks of me. Hahahahah!

Living rent-free inside your head is fun.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 115
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 10/1/2020 11:25:50 PM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1072
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Two can play this stupikd game.

1. No Russian or Chinese fighter comes anywhere near close to matching the speed of the slowest ICBM (about 18 Mach). All are to slow to can't catch up to and get into position to destroy an incoming ICBM. Ergo all Russian and Chinese fighters are useless.

2. No Russian or Chinese fighter can match the maneuverability of a Fokker Triplane, or even the less maneuverable Sopwith Camel or the more advanced CR.42. Ergo in a dogfight all Russian and Chinese fighters are useless.

3. No Russian or Chinese fighter has a payload close to matching that of a B-52. Not even that of the much more limited B-29. Ergo, all Russian and Chinese fighters are useless and a waste of money and resources.


Some Americans should thank their lucky stars they don't live and express their amateur military opinions in a country governed by a Stalin clone. The original got fed up with Polikarpov who was reluctant to embrace modern aeronautical developmnents and ultimately paid the price of being sent to the gulag.

Alfred


+1

Thank you, Alfred.

Joe



"Alfred, can you help me? Rusty is being mean to me...."

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 116
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 10/1/2020 11:30:36 PM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 868
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Boston, London, Hoboken, now Warwick, NY
Status: offline
Folks - please take it down a couple of notches. Nobody on this thread is going to change anyone else's mind on this one. But we should all be civil and let it go at that. If life you meet people who can be debated/educated/communicated with, but on some topics people are just not going to budge. So unless your ultimate goal is to get this thread shut down, go take a cold shower, hit the punching bag for a while, or whatever takes your fancy. My preference is Irish whiskey. Working on one now.

Regards,
Frank

(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 117
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 10/2/2020 12:08:29 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8486
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Two can play this stupikd game.

1. No Russian or Chinese fighter comes anywhere near close to matching the speed of the slowest ICBM (about 18 Mach). All are to slow to can't catch up to and get into position to destroy an incoming ICBM. Ergo all Russian and Chinese fighters are useless.

2. No Russian or Chinese fighter can match the maneuverability of a Fokker Triplane, or even the less maneuverable Sopwith Camel or the more advanced CR.42. Ergo in a dogfight all Russian and Chinese fighters are useless.

3. No Russian or Chinese fighter has a payload close to matching that of a B-52. Not even that of the much more limited B-29. Ergo, all Russian and Chinese fighters are useless and a waste of money and resources.


Some Americans should thank their lucky stars they don't live and express their amateur military opinions in a country governed by a Stalin clone. The original got fed up with Polikarpov who was reluctant to embrace modern aeronautical developmnents and ultimately paid the price of being sent to the gulag.

Alfred



And hundreds of thousands Americans should curse the day they were born having died for the Monarchy, Comrade Stalin and Mao.

Your thinking is so archaic is it sad, but I bet even you, with your myopic thinking (more like emotions) would trade all those American lives back for on drop of Europeon blood.

Tell me at least that.


I understand, you prefer Adolf Hitler.


Wrong, that would be you with your Nazi-salute.


What Nazi salute?

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 118
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 10/2/2020 12:55:31 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10389
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline
Please stop assigning political ideologies to one another. It's against the forum rules.

_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 119
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 10/2/2020 9:27:11 PM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1072
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

Folks - please take it down a couple of notches. Nobody on this thread is going to change anyone else's mind on this one. But we should all be civil and let it go at that. If life you meet people who can be debated/educated/communicated with, but on some topics people are just not going to budge. So unless your ultimate goal is to get this thread shut down, go take a cold shower, hit the punching bag for a while, or whatever takes your fancy. My preference is Irish whiskey. Working on one now.

Regards,
Frank


As long as Neo-Nazis, as epitomized by Ranger Joe screaming,"Sieg Hiel!" are allowed to stink up this thread I will not tolerate it. If you are comfortable with his saluting Adolph Hitler you need a soul check.

(in reply to fcooke)
Post #: 120
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