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RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edition)

 
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RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 7/24/2020 6:34:15 PM   
RangerJoe


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The Air Force Just Bought Its First New F-15s in Decades
The F-15EX is really a different Eagle under the hood.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a33313847/air-force-buys-new-f15-fighter-jets/

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 61
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/20/2020 8:46:53 PM   
Alpha77

 

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Maj. Cody "ShIV" Wilton gives the most detailed walkaround tour of the A-10 I've ever seen. I can't thank "ShIV" enough for spending time on a very hot Texas day to make this video!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXgTrpPU9Rk

I found it interesting that the A-10 seems to have been modernized with some of these features the F-35 is advertised with, eg. target-sharing and datalinks...if you do not want to see the whole video than jump to 32 Min he describes some of the systems in teh cockpit

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 9/20/2020 8:47:29 PM >

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 62
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/20/2020 11:28:28 PM   
fcooke

 

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very interesting video. I know why the airforce wants to take it out of service, but seems like a pretty dumb idea.

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 63
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/22/2020 11:55:40 PM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1045
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The Air Force Just Bought Its First New F-15s in Decades
The F-15EX is really a different Eagle under the hood.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a33313847/air-force-buys-new-f15-fighter-jets/



Odd we would need to go back to a nearly 50 year-old design when we had the "new" and "improved" Gen V fighter F-35.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 64
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/22/2020 11:58:24 PM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1045
Joined: 2/4/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Maj. Cody "ShIV" Wilton gives the most detailed walkaround tour of the A-10 I've ever seen. I can't thank "ShIV" enough for spending time on a very hot Texas day to make this video!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXgTrpPU9Rk

I found it interesting that the A-10 seems to have been modernized with some of these features the F-35 is advertised with, eg. target-sharing and datalinks...if you do not want to see the whole video than jump to 32 Min he describes some of the systems in teh cockpit



Thank you. This man proves the F-35 is superfluous.

A-10 is a relic at this point. The 5th Gds Tank Army doesn't exist We're pulling forces out of Germany. Using a F-35 against a squad of Taliban is overkill in this era of cheap-and effective-drones.

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 65
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/23/2020 12:00:12 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8209
Joined: 11/16/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The Air Force Just Bought Its First New F-15s in Decades
The F-15EX is really a different Eagle under the hood.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a33313847/air-force-buys-new-f15-fighter-jets/



Odd we would need to go back to a nearly 50 year-old design when we had the "new" and "improved" Gen V fighter F-35.


That is because they are different tools in the tool box and they do different things.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 66
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/23/2020 12:04:42 AM   
Rusty1961

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Half of the armoured vehicles in the Soviet initial forces were broken down. If that ever changed, that would have been a warning to the West.

I thought that Red Storm Rising had the initial Cavalry units with the M-1 tanks. I thought that it was an earlier book about the Third World War that had the Sheridans.


50% isn't bad. "Of he 23 F-35s in the test fleet they only had a readiness of 8.7%"

https://www.pogo.org/investigation/2019/08/f-35-test-fleet-struggling-with-low-readiness-rates/


"Hangar Queens" is what they call them.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 67
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/23/2020 12:05:51 AM   
Rusty1961

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

Just don't see how a single seat fighter can manage all that. A two seater with a RIO I can kind of get my head around.


Which is why so much computational power is packed into the F-35.

The modern ide is that smart algorithms do a much better and quicker job than a second pilot/bombardier/navigator whatever, at a cheaper price in the long run too. Main reason why so much development time and cost is involved.

Alfred



Yes, very powerful computers. Can they use those computers and cool weapons while sitting in the hangar?

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 68
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/23/2020 1:15:33 AM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961
A-10 is a relic at this point. The 5th Gds Tank Army doesn't exist We're pulling forces out of Germany. Using a F-35 against a squad of Taliban is overkill in this era of cheap-and effective-drones.


Who knows what war plans are going around in the top "elite" circles - for which they think they need planes like F-35.

Remember the A-10 is not only a tank killer it provides CAS against all kinds targets even the Taliban feared the plane i have read. However against an enemy that has no modern anti air weapons or an air force himself even a P47 can do some damage. Or Skyraiders or those old Fiat G91 ground attack planes etc. Taliban or simmilar "terrorists" have usually only some HMGs and Stingers (or the Russian versions of these) as AA weapons. Compared to WW3 in Europe scenario "quite" low threat.

Even some Shilka AA tanks and older S300 systems or so would change that picture I guess. Serbians managed to shoot down some Nato planes I believe with older AA missile systems.

F-35 in air combat is also not the best compared to eg. SU35 etc. Escept stealth and computer tech. So the new F15 makes sense to have some cheaper but still capable planes for A2A combat. The US also has F16s or not, updated versions are usefull.

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 9/23/2020 1:18:23 AM >

(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 69
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/23/2020 1:40:41 AM   
BBfanboy


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From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961
A-10 is a relic at this point. The 5th Gds Tank Army doesn't exist We're pulling forces out of Germany. Using a F-35 against a squad of Taliban is overkill in this era of cheap-and effective-drones.


Who knows what war plans are going around in the top "elite" circles - for which they think they need planes like F-35.

Remember the A-10 is not only a tank killer it provides CAS against all kinds targets even the Taliban feared the plane i have read. However against an enemy that has no modern anti air weapons or an air force himself even a P47 can do some damage. Or Skyraiders or those old Fiat G91 ground attack planes etc. Taliban or simmilar "terrorists" have usually only some HMGs and Stingers (or the Russian versions of these) as AA weapons. Compared to WW3 in Europe scenario "quite" low threat.

Even some Shilka AA tanks and older S300 systems or so would change that picture I guess. Serbians managed to shoot down some Nato planes I believe with older AA missile systems.

F-35 in air combat is also not the best compared to eg. SU35 etc. Escept stealth and computer tech. So the new F15 makes sense to have some cheaper but still capable planes for A2A combat. The US also has F16s or not, updated versions are usefull.

I suspect one of the new types of combat the F-35 is supposed to tackle is drone swarms. To handle them you need an aircraft that can detect the individual drones in the swarms, prioritize them and direct its own swarm of drones or missiles to intercept. That is the only scenario I can picture for all the computer and interlink power they are packing into it. None of the other current generation aircraft can handle that role.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 70
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/23/2020 12:25:01 PM   
Alpha77

 

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BB Fanboy, even F16/15s will be able to do this detecting work on many single incomming threats (planes,missiles or drones), especially when fitted with this radar:

Air Force increases its buy of advanced F-16 jet fighter SABR AESA radar avionics buy from Northrop Grumman

https://www.militaryaerospace.com/sensors/article/14168870/radar-avionics-jet-fighter

"WRIGHT-PATTERSON AFB, Ohio – U.S. Air Force aerial warfare experts are ordering additional modern active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar for F-16 jet fighter aircraft under terms of an order announced Friday worth more than a quarter billion dollars......"

"...The bandwidth, speed, and agility of AESA radars enable legacy fighter aircraft like the F-16 to detect, track, and identify many targets quickly and at long ranges, and to operate in hostile electronic warfare (EW) environments...."

But there are also Awacs/AEW planes that can do this even better.
Also the stealth will be degraded as soon a plane turns on these powerful radars. ESM systems/radar warning devices will pick up the radiation and can give a picture were the radar orginates from.

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 9/23/2020 12:57:30 PM >

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 71
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/23/2020 2:39:44 PM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 825
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From: Boston, London, Hoboken, now Warwick, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Maj. Cody "ShIV" Wilton gives the most detailed walkaround tour of the A-10 I've ever seen. I can't thank "ShIV" enough for spending time on a very hot Texas day to make this video!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXgTrpPU9Rk

I found it interesting that the A-10 seems to have been modernized with some of these features the F-35 is advertised with, eg. target-sharing and datalinks...if you do not want to see the whole video than jump to 32 Min he describes some of the systems in teh cockpit



Thank you. This man proves the F-35 is superfluous.

A-10 is a relic at this point. The 5th Gds Tank Army doesn't exist We're pulling forces out of Germany. Using a F-35 against a squad of Taliban is overkill in this era of cheap-and effective-drones.

The A-10 is the favorite air support system of ground troops for a reason. Drones have their place but manned aircraft with minds that can think on the fly also have a place. And speaking of relics, it looks like the B-52 will outlive the B-1 and B-2. Just saying.

As for the F-35 program. Trying to stuff all capabilities into one airframe is sort of dumb. P-51s were excellent fighters, not so good at strafing because of their engine. F4 Phantoms worked out well in multiple roles but very very few airframes have been good at doing 'everything'

(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 72
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/23/2020 3:01:14 PM   
Lowpe


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https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/09/21/the-air-force-secretly-built-its-next-fighter-jet/

The Air Force Secretly Built Its Next Fighter Jet: Here's What It Means for Defense Stocks

Also kind of sort of related, is a story that Pres Trump told at a rally about CV catapults and CV elevators. Very illuminating about our procurement and development process, and also very interesting in how this administration is changing it.

I met Regan's Sec of Navy a few years back, and this is pretty much all he talked about: shortening the development time of new systems.



< Message edited by Lowpe -- 9/23/2020 3:06:32 PM >

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 73
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/23/2020 4:24:04 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2912
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Also kind of sort of related, is a story that Pres Trump told at a rally about CV catapults and CV elevators. Very illuminating about our procurement and development process, and also very interesting in how this administration is changing it.



This piqued my curiosity, so I looked up the transcript from the speech.

Seems to me there's no understanding that developing new technology isn't exactly straightforward, and that despite the large upfront cost, there's the potential for serious secondary benefits.

If one of the main advantages of EMALS is that it puts less strain on the airframe, what does that equate to in terms of write-offs/maintenance hours for USN carrier aircraft? How long does it take to pay off the over-run in that context? Ditto redundancy. Makes sense to have an electric system if you're going to the bother of lugging a nuclear reactor around in the hold of your ship.

Much like the F-35, it's about the whole being greater than the sum of its parts.

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 74
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/23/2020 5:44:51 PM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1045
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Maj. Cody "ShIV" Wilton gives the most detailed walkaround tour of the A-10 I've ever seen. I can't thank "ShIV" enough for spending time on a very hot Texas day to make this video!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXgTrpPU9Rk

I found it interesting that the A-10 seems to have been modernized with some of these features the F-35 is advertised with, eg. target-sharing and datalinks...if you do not want to see the whole video than jump to 32 Min he describes some of the systems in teh cockpit



Thank you. This man proves the F-35 is superfluous.

A-10 is a relic at this point. The 5th Gds Tank Army doesn't exist We're pulling forces out of Germany. Using a F-35 against a squad of Taliban is overkill in this era of cheap-and effective-drones.

The A-10 is the favorite air support system of ground troops for a reason. Drones have their place but manned aircraft with minds that can think on the fly also have a place. And speaking of relics, it looks like the B-52 will outlive the B-1 and B-2. Just saying.

As for the F-35 program. Trying to stuff all capabilities into one airframe is sort of dumb. P-51s were excellent fighters, not so good at strafing because of their engine. F4 Phantoms worked out well in multiple roles but very very few airframes have been good at doing 'everything'



The B-52 is limited to Stand-off attacks against even 2nd rate AD. All they did in the Yugo conflict was stand-off ALCM attacks. They are obsolete.

B-1s readiness is down to single units they are so bad. Great looking plane, but another waste of money.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a27758696/b-1-bomber-readiness/

(in reply to fcooke)
Post #: 75
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/23/2020 5:46:51 PM   
Rusty1961

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/09/21/the-air-force-secretly-built-its-next-fighter-jet/

The Air Force Secretly Built Its Next Fighter Jet: Here's What It Means for Defense Stocks

Also kind of sort of related, is a story that Pres Trump told at a rally about CV catapults and CV elevators. Very illuminating about our procurement and development process, and also very interesting in how this administration is changing it.

I met Regan's Sec of Navy a few years back, and this is pretty much all he talked about: shortening the development time of new systems.





All the good his talking did. Look at the monstrous F-35 and it's "development" time.

And since when do we design planes in "secret" like this? Obviously to escape oversight.

Who knows what other "Secret", wasteful projects they are working on.

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 76
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/23/2020 7:38:19 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2912
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From: Glasgow, Scotland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Maj. Cody "ShIV" Wilton gives the most detailed walkaround tour of the A-10 I've ever seen. I can't thank "ShIV" enough for spending time on a very hot Texas day to make this video!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXgTrpPU9Rk

I found it interesting that the A-10 seems to have been modernized with some of these features the F-35 is advertised with, eg. target-sharing and datalinks...if you do not want to see the whole video than jump to 32 Min he describes some of the systems in teh cockpit



Thank you. This man proves the F-35 is superfluous.

A-10 is a relic at this point. The 5th Gds Tank Army doesn't exist We're pulling forces out of Germany. Using a F-35 against a squad of Taliban is overkill in this era of cheap-and effective-drones.

The A-10 is the favorite air support system of ground troops for a reason. Drones have their place but manned aircraft with minds that can think on the fly also have a place. And speaking of relics, it looks like the B-52 will outlive the B-1 and B-2. Just saying.

As for the F-35 program. Trying to stuff all capabilities into one airframe is sort of dumb. P-51s were excellent fighters, not so good at strafing because of their engine. F4 Phantoms worked out well in multiple roles but very very few airframes have been good at doing 'everything'



The B-52 is limited to Stand-off attacks against even 2nd rate AD. All they did in the Yugo conflict was stand-off ALCM attacks. They are obsolete.



Different war, different context. Losses in the context of the breakup of Yugoslavia would have been unpalatable for the American public.

Less so for the intended purpose of the B-52, which was nuclear deterrence, flying low to get close to the Soviet Union to deliver nuclear payloads. In that context, losses are less of a concern. 50% losses are fine if half the payload reaches it's target.

quote:

B-1s readiness is down to single units they are so bad. Great looking plane, but another waste of money.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a27758696/b-1-bomber-readiness/


Again, context. B-52 aging, yet the B-2 bomber a fair way off. Sure wouldn't have been a waste of money if the Soviets came pouring through the Fulda Gap and there was a lack of an effective long-range strategic bomber...


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/09/21/the-air-force-secretly-built-its-next-fighter-jet/

The Air Force Secretly Built Its Next Fighter Jet: Here's What It Means for Defense Stocks

Also kind of sort of related, is a story that Pres Trump told at a rally about CV catapults and CV elevators. Very illuminating about our procurement and development process, and also very interesting in how this administration is changing it.

I met Regan's Sec of Navy a few years back, and this is pretty much all he talked about: shortening the development time of new systems.





All the good his talking did. Look at the monstrous F-35 and it's "development" time.

And since when do we design planes in "secret" like this? Obviously to escape oversight.

Who knows what other "Secret", wasteful projects they are working on.


Are you suggesting we should crowd-source future aircraft designs? If so, interesting concept...

(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 77
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/23/2020 10:09:10 PM   
fcooke

 

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The fact the AF is procuring more F-15s is pretty negative for the F-35. I saw a F-35 at an airshow last year. The plane can fly. I have concerns that is too fragile for CAS compared to the A-10.

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 78
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/23/2020 11:11:45 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2912
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From: Glasgow, Scotland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

The fact the AF is procuring more F-15s is pretty negative for the F-35. I saw a F-35 at an airshow last year. The plane can fly. I have concerns that is too fragile for CAS compared to the A-10.


This is symptomatic of the kind of one-dimensional thinking that Alfred pointed out earlier in the thread with his "orchestra" comparison.

You're not using the F-35 for CAS, you're using the F-35 to co-ordinate the drones that provide the CAS. See the XQ-58 for an example.

(in reply to fcooke)
Post #: 79
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/23/2020 11:19:48 PM   
RangerJoe


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Think of the F-35 as the conductor for the orchestra while the other aircraft are the musicians.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 80
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/24/2020 8:08:06 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9131
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/09/21/the-air-force-secretly-built-its-next-fighter-jet/

The Air Force Secretly Built Its Next Fighter Jet: Here's What It Means for Defense Stocks

Also kind of sort of related, is a story that Pres Trump told at a rally about CV catapults and CV elevators. Very illuminating about our procurement and development process, and also very interesting in how this administration is changing it.

I met Regan's Sec of Navy a few years back, and this is pretty much all he talked about: shortening the development time of new systems.





All the good his talking did. Look at the monstrous F-35 and it's "development" time.

And since when do we design planes in "secret" like this? Obviously to escape oversight.

Who knows what other "Secret", wasteful projects they are working on.


Same old, same old, I see.

I can think of a far more obvious answer than "escaping oversight" (what oversight?) - keeping your capabilities and research secret from potentially hostile opponents for as long as possible.

It's not as if designing planes in public is a longstanding and important tradition or something.

Going further, I would have thought that you, of all people, would have been ecstatic - given how much the F-35 is your personal hobby horse.

(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 81
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/24/2020 11:33:10 AM   
Alpha77

 

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I think the low readiness states reported above might be exagerated.. perhaps even a ruse for potentiell enemies...

Just per coincidence I found this article on a German aviation site, reporting problems with F-35 "OBIGGS (On Board Inert Gas Generation System)":

https://aerobuzz.de/militar/f-35-lightning-ii-muessen-sich-von-gewittern-fernhalten/

But I also have read F-35 was good in A2A combat in "red flags exercises" I guess vs. F15/16(?)
That it´s weapons are inside gives F-35 of course an advantage compared to planes having all payload on pylons.. these add of course weight and drag. Also eg. the outboard fuel tanks need to be jettisoned in A2A. Or potentially bombs/ground attack missiles too. F-35 has an advantage carrying everything inside.
Downside is low payload, for my taste TOO low. Also would weapons bay opening perhaps screw with stealth?

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 82
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/24/2020 12:40:04 PM   
fcooke

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

The fact the AF is procuring more F-15s is pretty negative for the F-35. I saw a F-35 at an airshow last year. The plane can fly. I have concerns that is too fragile for CAS compared to the A-10.


This is symptomatic of the kind of one-dimensional thinking that Alfred pointed out earlier in the thread with his "orchestra" comparison.

You're not using the F-35 for CAS, you're using the F-35 to co-ordinate the drones that provide the CAS. See the XQ-58 for an example.

Well thank you for calling me one dimensional. And not addressing the additional F-15 procurement. You think that came out of nowhere? If you want to control more drones get a dedicated bird, not a one pilot fighter.

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 83
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/24/2020 2:38:53 PM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1045
Joined: 2/4/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

The fact the AF is procuring more F-15s is pretty negative for the F-35. I saw a F-35 at an airshow last year. The plane can fly. I have concerns that is too fragile for CAS compared to the A-10.


This is symptomatic of the kind of one-dimensional thinking that Alfred pointed out earlier in the thread with his "orchestra" comparison.

You're not using the F-35 for CAS, you're using the F-35 to co-ordinate the drones that provide the CAS. See the XQ-58 for an example.

Well thank you for calling me one dimensional. And not addressing the additional F-15 procurement. You think that came out of nowhere? If you want to control more drones get a dedicated bird, not a one pilot fighter.



If the F-35 could do what it was promised to do there would be no need to buy the F-15X.

The F-35 was sold to us as a replacement-the "next generation" of fighters-not as a supplement.


(in reply to fcooke)
Post #: 84
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/24/2020 2:40:07 PM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1045
Joined: 2/4/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

I think the low readiness states reported above might be exagerated.. perhaps even a ruse for potentiell enemies...

Just per coincidence I found this article on a German aviation site, reporting problems with F-35 "OBIGGS (On Board Inert Gas Generation System)":

https://aerobuzz.de/militar/f-35-lightning-ii-muessen-sich-von-gewittern-fernhalten/

But I also have read F-35 was good in A2A combat in "red flags exercises" I guess vs. F15/16(?)
That it´s weapons are inside gives F-35 of course an advantage compared to planes having all payload on pylons.. these add of course weight and drag. Also eg. the outboard fuel tanks need to be jettisoned in A2A. Or potentially bombs/ground attack missiles too. F-35 has an advantage carrying everything inside.
Downside is low payload, for my taste TOO low. Also would weapons bay opening perhaps screw with stealth?




Depends how you define A2A. Dogfighting? Nope, it is "meat on the table" for even Gen II Russian planes.

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 85
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/24/2020 2:53:03 PM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1045
Joined: 2/4/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/09/21/the-air-force-secretly-built-its-next-fighter-jet/

The Air Force Secretly Built Its Next Fighter Jet: Here's What It Means for Defense Stocks

Also kind of sort of related, is a story that Pres Trump told at a rally about CV catapults and CV elevators. Very illuminating about our procurement and development process, and also very interesting in how this administration is changing it.

I met Regan's Sec of Navy a few years back, and this is pretty much all he talked about: shortening the development time of new systems.





All the good his talking did. Look at the monstrous F-35 and it's "development" time.

And since when do we design planes in "secret" like this? Obviously to escape oversight.

Who knows what other "Secret", wasteful projects they are working on.


Same old, same old, I see.

I can think of a far more obvious answer than "escaping oversight" (what oversight?) - keeping your capabilities and research secret from potentially hostile opponents for as long as possible.

It's not as if designing planes in public is a longstanding and important tradition or something.

Going further, I would have thought that you, of all people, would have been ecstatic - given how much the F-35 is your personal hobby horse.



Given the amount of waste and fraud in almost everything under the sun in Pentagon procurement that is the most logical conclusion.

Just look at the waste and failed promises in the F-35 program.

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 86
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/24/2020 2:54:19 PM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1045
Joined: 2/4/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

The fact the AF is procuring more F-15s is pretty negative for the F-35. I saw a F-35 at an airshow last year. The plane can fly. I have concerns that is too fragile for CAS compared to the A-10.



"negative"? More like an indictment.

(in reply to fcooke)
Post #: 87
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/24/2020 2:55:52 PM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1045
Joined: 2/4/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

The fact the AF is procuring more F-15s is pretty negative for the F-35. I saw a F-35 at an airshow last year. The plane can fly. I have concerns that is too fragile for CAS compared to the A-10.


This is symptomatic of the kind of one-dimensional thinking that Alfred pointed out earlier in the thread with his "orchestra" comparison.

You're not using the F-35 for CAS, you're using the F-35 to co-ordinate the drones that provide the CAS. See the XQ-58 for an example.



You don't need a $100,000,000.00 plane to guide drones to target. A larger drone can do that-but there is no profit in that, is there.

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 88
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/24/2020 7:25:07 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2912
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

The fact the AF is procuring more F-15s is pretty negative for the F-35. I saw a F-35 at an airshow last year. The plane can fly. I have concerns that is too fragile for CAS compared to the A-10.


This is symptomatic of the kind of one-dimensional thinking that Alfred pointed out earlier in the thread with his "orchestra" comparison.

You're not using the F-35 for CAS, you're using the F-35 to co-ordinate the drones that provide the CAS. See the XQ-58 for an example.

Well thank you for calling me one dimensional. And not addressing the additional F-15 procurement. You think that came out of nowhere? If you want to control more drones get a dedicated bird, not a one pilot fighter.


As pointed out previously, having specialised aircraft may not by default be a cheaper solution as now you've a larger air force and the costs that come with it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

I think the low readiness states reported above might be exagerated.. perhaps even a ruse for potentiell enemies...

Just per coincidence I found this article on a German aviation site, reporting problems with F-35 "OBIGGS (On Board Inert Gas Generation System)":

https://aerobuzz.de/militar/f-35-lightning-ii-muessen-sich-von-gewittern-fernhalten/

But I also have read F-35 was good in A2A combat in "red flags exercises" I guess vs. F15/16(?)
That it´s weapons are inside gives F-35 of course an advantage compared to planes having all payload on pylons.. these add of course weight and drag. Also eg. the outboard fuel tanks need to be jettisoned in A2A. Or potentially bombs/ground attack missiles too. F-35 has an advantage carrying everything inside.
Downside is low payload, for my taste TOO low. Also would weapons bay opening perhaps screw with stealth?




Depends how you define A2A. Dogfighting? Nope, it is "meat on the table" for even Gen II Russian planes.


When was the last time air-to-air combat occurred where dogfighting actively occurred?

The characteristics key in dogfighting, while still desirable in an airframe, have much less importance now than previously.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

The fact the AF is procuring more F-15s is pretty negative for the F-35. I saw a F-35 at an airshow last year. The plane can fly. I have concerns that is too fragile for CAS compared to the A-10.


This is symptomatic of the kind of one-dimensional thinking that Alfred pointed out earlier in the thread with his "orchestra" comparison.

You're not using the F-35 for CAS, you're using the F-35 to co-ordinate the drones that provide the CAS. See the XQ-58 for an example.



You don't need a $100,000,000.00 plane to guide drones to target. A larger drone can do that-but there is no profit in that, is there.


Perhaps so, but if you've got all your drone pilots in the same place (let's say a control room on a CV) then a single missile hit and they might be out of action.

If you've got ten F-35's up, there's ten F-35s, each with a semi-autonomous mini-air wing of drones.

That's the kind of war the F-35 is aimed at fighting.

(in reply to fcooke)
Post #: 89
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 9/24/2020 9:35:30 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8209
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

The fact the AF is procuring more F-15s is pretty negative for the F-35. I saw a F-35 at an airshow last year. The plane can fly. I have concerns that is too fragile for CAS compared to the A-10.


This is symptomatic of the kind of one-dimensional thinking that Alfred pointed out earlier in the thread with his "orchestra" comparison.

You're not using the F-35 for CAS, you're using the F-35 to co-ordinate the drones that provide the CAS. See the XQ-58 for an example.



You don't need a $100,000,000.00 plane to guide drones to target. A larger drone can do that-but there is no profit in that, is there.


Why do you care? The Russians are not paying for it.

_____________________________

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― Julia Child


(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 90
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