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RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edition)

 
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RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/26/2020 1:08:33 PM   
Canoerebel


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Please ignore, x2

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 6/26/2020 9:31:02 PM >

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Post #: 31
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/26/2020 9:30:04 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

There are obviously a lot of boosters and detractors of the F35 program.

Canada not the least.

I am certain the program is neither as good as some advertise nor as bad as other advertise. Inevitably the boosters focus on capability - the detractors on capability verses cost. We wont really have definitive assessed proof probably for many years ( as we learned with the F4 Phantoms with no guns, the F14 Tomcat as a carrier monster, the F16 as too big and heavy)

One can search the "interweb thingy" and find an article to support any view you wish to forward. Some reputable some not some current some old etc. Pro or Con

I think it is important to recall

1) A single plane or squadron of planes do not fight on their own. In addition other air superiority measures - AWACs, GPS, Drones heavens knows what - contribute to the overall tactical plan. This is not 1917 - dog fights over the trenches are not the 'only' facet of air combat.

2) The planes are also part of 'much more' combined arms tactics nowadays. Far more so since 1945. Far more so than Nam. Far more so than the first Gulf war although that is the most relevant comparison. Its not just other air superiority measures. Its ground forces / ships / helicopters and heaven know what more.

3) Western programs are subject to far more scrutiny than Russian / Chinese / weapons programs etc. Simply freedom of the press and public cost accounting drive this greater transparency. There is a laundry list of failed Soviet / German (Axis) / Japanese (Axis) programs - however we generally find out many years latter because their military's are not subject to the same level of scrutiny or analysis.

As I say there are plenty of booster / detractors with many (self serving - argument) points.

Its all rather academic as they are just deploying now and have hardly been used.


Eh, how are our old Hornets adjusting to the cold?

The F-35 is the only true 5G plane option to the West. Critics have simply not understood what true 5G is. The F-35 is not intended to be all the things which the critics find fault with. The correct viewpoint is to view the F-35 (and any true 5G plane) as the conductor of the orchestra. A conductor brings out the greater synergy of the parts. The resulting performance is greater than the sum of the parts.

Alfred

I think the F22 also qualifies as 5G

And are not the Sentrys and Hawkeyes supposed to do that battlespace management thingy?

I remember the Spruance DDs were built with not a lot of weapons with the idea that they would easy to upgrade. Never really happened in a material way. The Kidds always seemed to be more capable and are still around today (Taiwan I believe).

I hope the program ends up being a success. But I am a firm believer in having specialized aircraft rather than 'everything in one'.

And I really hope we never live to see how good/bad Russian/Chinese models are, because as alluded to - that will only happen via combat.


1. The term 5G refers to firth generation fighters. The Sentrys and Hawkeyes are not 5G.

2. The Raptor is not for export to anyone. A few of the countries involved in the development and construction of the F-35 wanted to have the Raptor for their air superiority fighters. Which brings us back to my statement, the F-35 is the only true 5G option to the West.

3. I too prefer to have specialised aircraft. It would considerably shorten and simplify the development times. However, having specialised aircraft would not necessarily reduce capital or through life costs as larger sized airforces (both in terms of airframes and personnel) would then become necessary. That is a very difficult political ask where most voters believe any money spent on the military is wrong because it is at the expense of redistributing taxes to their direct personal benefit.

Alfred

(in reply to fcooke)
Post #: 32
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/27/2020 10:55:54 AM   
fcooke

 

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Not sure what a firth generation fighter is

I missed your interpretation on 5G aircraft available to the West as opposed to the US. Mea Culpa.

I never did claim that Sentrys and Hawkeyes were 5G. But they are dedicated platforms. And as an ex tech guy I prefer a dedicated plane/crew rather than a single seat computerized unit somehow managing the battlespace. One dog's opinion.

On the specialized aircraft I think we may agree and disagree. But to retire already paid for A-10s to finance more F-35s just seems dumb to me. In WW2 would you want to strafe in a P51 or a P47? In any case I think maintaining an A-10 will be oodles cheaper than maintaining an F35. But the AF doesn't seem to like CAS. But the guys on the ground sure seem to.

Larger forces on less dollars I can get my head around

Which I think would be the actual outcome. And like you mentioned it would not take almost 20 years to get a platform into service.

One can dream.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 33
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/27/2020 4:18:17 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

Not sure what a firth generation fighter is

I missed your interpretation on 5G aircraft available to the West as opposed to the US. Mea Culpa.

I never did claim that Sentrys and Hawkeyes were 5G. But they are dedicated platforms. And as an ex tech guy I prefer a dedicated plane/crew rather than a single seat computerized unit somehow managing the battlespace. One dog's opinion.

On the specialized aircraft I think we may agree and disagree. But to retire already paid for A-10s to finance more F-35s just seems dumb to me. In WW2 would you want to strafe in a P51 or a P47? In any case I think maintaining an A-10 will be oodles cheaper than maintaining an F35. But the AF doesn't seem to like CAS. But the guys on the ground sure seem to.

Larger forces on less dollars I can get my head around

Which I think would be the actual outcome. And like you mentioned it would not take almost 20 years to get a platform into service.

One can dream.

I think the idea of the F-35 is to have enough data processing and coms power to use satellites, drones, ground info and intel databases to maximum effect. Imagine the F-35 handling 100 drones, sending groups of them to handle threats and to attack multiple targets simultaneously. The enemy gets swamped and cannot respond as quickly as the F-35 and friends. The AWACs and similar aircraft are great to have, but there aren't enough of them and they use a mixture of detection/comms but rely on the forces they control to guide themselves with the info they provide. The F-35 would control all of it, if necessary.

There was an episode of Air Warriors on the Smithsonian Channel about the F-16. One segment was about an F-16 in Afghanistan called on for air support just as night had fallen. The pilot could not distinguish adequately between the friendly force that was surrounded and the Taliban that were closing in, so he contacted his base and arranged control of a Predator drone in the area. The drone had much better IR sensors and using them he directed the drone strike on the Taliban that enabled the surrounded troops to get to safety. Just a peek at what is possible with satellite links and local control of available assets.

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(in reply to fcooke)
Post #: 34
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/27/2020 11:21:14 PM   
fcooke

 

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Just don't see how a single seat fighter can manage all that. A two seater with a RIO I can kind of get my head around.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 35
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/27/2020 11:29:04 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

Just don't see how a single seat fighter can manage all that. A two seater with a RIO I can kind of get my head around.

I vaguely recall the pilot from the incident saying he had a guy in the back handling the technical stuff. Don't know why a two-seater variant F-16 would be in Afghanistan - my lack of knowledge or all the capabilities and versions. I always think of two seaters as trainers rather than a two man combat crew.

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(in reply to fcooke)
Post #: 36
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/28/2020 12:00:32 AM   
RangerJoe


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The A-10 does not fly fast and it does not look sleek. So the Air Force people in charge of things don't like it since they are more of the fighter air combat and fighter bomber types that can do many things. They usually don't have boots on the ground nor any ground training. Let the army have some more fixed wings and I am sure that they would take the A-10s. The Marines are trained in ground combat even if they are pilots, think of Marine A-10s although I don't know about putting a hook on them but since so many Marine pilots are hookers . . .

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(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 37
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/28/2020 12:17:52 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The A-10 does not fly fast and it does not look sleek. So the Air Force people in charge of things don't like it since they are more of the fighter air combat and fighter bomber types that can do many things. They usually don't have boots on the ground nor any ground training. Let the army have some more fixed wings and I am sure that they would take the A-10s. The Marines are trained in ground combat even if they are pilots, think of Marine A-10s although I don't know about putting a hook on them but since so many Marine pilots are hookers . . .


When I was at a base in the Carolinas to pick up Airborne Troops for an exercise in Canada, the air base nearby had A-10s practicing takeoffs and landings. They flew a very tight oval and the turn of 180º to line up with the runway was beautiful to watch, a quick flip into a wingover, turn on a dime and straighten out. Fantastic maneuverability and slow speed that are needed to engage ground targets.

I saw a film once of what it looks like for a pilot of a low-flying F-104 Starfighter doing a treetop level ground attack mission. Stuff went by so fast it was all a blur and when he got to the target zone he had less than a second to acquire the target and release his bomb! Then he had to go full afterburner and turn hard to avoid potential light AA (they hated the ZSU-23/4 flack vehicles). The armoured A-10 with its better sensors and ability to go slow enough to make precision strikes is just such a huge advance.

_____________________________

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Post #: 38
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/28/2020 12:31:24 AM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

Just don't see how a single seat fighter can manage all that. A two seater with a RIO I can kind of get my head around.


Which is why so much computational power is packed into the F-35.

The modern ide is that smart algorithms do a much better and quicker job than a second pilot/bombardier/navigator whatever, at a cheaper price in the long run too. Main reason why so much development time and cost is involved.

Alfred

(in reply to fcooke)
Post #: 39
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/28/2020 12:33:41 AM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The A-10 does not fly fast and it does not look sleek. So the Air Force people in charge of things don't like it since they are more of the fighter air combat and fighter bomber types that can do many things. They usually don't have boots on the ground nor any ground training. Let the army have some more fixed wings and I am sure that they would take the A-10s. The Marines are trained in ground combat even if they are pilots, think of Marine A-10s although I don't know about putting a hook on them but since so many Marine pilots are hookers . . .


When I was at a base in the Carolinas to pick up Airborne Troops for an exercise in Canada, the air base nearby had A-10s practicing takeoffs and landings. They flew a very tight oval and the turn of 180º to line up with the runway was beautiful to watch, a quick flip into a wingover, turn on a dime and straighten out. Fantastic maneuverability and slow speed that are needed to engage ground targets.

I saw a film once of what it looks like for a pilot of a low-flying F-104 Starfighter doing a treetop level ground attack mission. Stuff went by so fast it was all a blur and when he got to the target zone he had less than a second to acquire the target and release his bomb! Then he had to go full afterburner and turn hard to avoid potential light AA (they hated the ZSU-23/4 flack vehicles). The armoured A-10 with its better sensors and ability to go slow enough to make precision strikes is just such a huge advance.


I do believe that the ground forces, especially the Cavalry, was taught to take out all enemy AA capabilities. That includes the ZSUs as well as all missile equipped SAM vehicles.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

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“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
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(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 40
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/28/2020 1:26:59 AM   
fcooke

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

Just don't see how a single seat fighter can manage all that. A two seater with a RIO I can kind of get my head around.


Which is why so much computational power is packed into the F-35.

The modern ide is that smart algorithms do a much better and quicker job than a second pilot/bombardier/navigator whatever, at a cheaper price in the long run too. Main reason why so much development time and cost is involved.

Alfred

You could put a mainframe in it but if someone got the coding wrong - oops. At least another set of human eyes have a chance to correct things. That airbus that went down in the Atlantic a number of years ago depended a little too much on the computers.

I know quite a bit about SW development. The tendency is to over-engineer the product. Which means more code. And with more code more likelyhood that the code has flaws.

But like I said I hope the platform works out. And that we never actually see it in combat.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 41
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/28/2020 1:34:17 AM   
fcooke

 

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My manager's manager was a West Point guy. I don't think he appreciated when I mentioned the early 80s Cav were meant as a speed bump to a potential Warsaw Pack invasion, but he was surprised when I said Sheridans firing shillegahs might cause some damage. He ran a platoon of Sheridans. I think I got some of the spelling wrong.

(in reply to fcooke)
Post #: 42
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/28/2020 2:50:48 AM   
RangerJoe


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In the early 80s, the US Cavalry units had M60 tanks, then received M-1 tanks.

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(in reply to fcooke)
Post #: 43
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/28/2020 5:09:29 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

My manager's manager was a West Point guy. I don't think he appreciated when I mentioned the early 80s Cav were meant as a speed bump to a potential Warsaw Pack invasion, but he was surprised when I said Sheridans firing shillegahs might cause some damage. He ran a platoon of Sheridans. I think I got some of the spelling wrong.

That is the scenario at the start of WW III in Red Storm Rising - the Sheridans firing and retreating to new prepared positions before the Russian artillery could nail them. But even with the success of the Sheridans and other strikes, the sheer mass of the Soviet armies pushes everything ahead of them.

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Post #: 44
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/28/2020 3:10:15 PM   
RangerJoe


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Half of the armoured vehicles in the Soviet initial forces were broken down. If that ever changed, that would have been a warning to the West.

I thought that Red Storm Rising had the initial Cavalry units with the M-1 tanks. I thought that it was an earlier book about the Third World War that had the Sheridans.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

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“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 45
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/29/2020 1:29:32 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Half of the armoured vehicles in the Soviet initial forces were broken down. If that ever changed, that would have been a warning to the West.

I thought that Red Storm Rising had the initial Cavalry units with the M-1 tanks. I thought that it was an earlier book about the Third World War that had the Sheridans.

You could be right - I read them both about the same time. Easy to mix memories after a few years.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 46
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/29/2020 2:43:51 AM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Half of the armoured vehicles in the Soviet initial forces were broken down. If that ever changed, that would have been a warning to the West.

I thought that Red Storm Rising had the initial Cavalry units with the M-1 tanks. I thought that it was an earlier book about the Third World War that had the Sheridans.

You could be right - I read them both about the same time. Easy to mix memories after a few years.


yes, but Red Storm Rising was set later. There was also a 60 minutes thing on the 11th ACR in Germany which patrolled the border. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find it on line.

This Is The Blackhorse (circa 1985)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QReV0Y-yy0M

The video shows M-1 and M-3 vehicles.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 47
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/29/2020 1:20:01 PM   
fcooke

 

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Hmmmm - I will have to poke around this one a little more. He retired as a bird Col, was Cav, and very much in Sheridans. In roughly 2012 I would say he was around 60. I did a little googling about the Sheridans and seems they were in service till 1997, and used as OPFOR until something like 2002/4. And not many of the missiles produced were ever fired.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 48
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/29/2020 2:57:07 PM   
RangerJoe


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The airborne still used Sheridans for awhile after the US Cavalry replaced them.

By the way, do you happen to know the full strength of the 11th or 2nd ACR when they were on the border in West Germany?

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Post #: 49
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/29/2020 4:15:45 PM   
Macclan5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Half of the armored vehicles in the Soviet initial forces were broken down. If that ever changed, that would have been a warning to the West.

.....<SNIP> Red Storm Rising



Excellent point RJ +1

In fact it further emphasizes that military program in Russia / China are not subject to independent scrutiny and too often the truth comes out at a much latter date (and other Nations - pretend democracies as well). Anyone can do a google search of the following: "state of readiness Soviet armored forces in europe 1980"

There are links to: (i) a RAND Corp study (ii) a recently declassified CIA document (iii) a whole host of opinions and conjecture. The key is in certain repetitive phrases from the credible sources: (i) problem with soldier hazing (ii) stagnant officer training (iii) soldier absenteeism / alcoholism (iv) static not innovative set plans (v) ethnic minority issues in the Soviet / Russian armed services (vi) etc etc etc ad nauseum

Turns out the 3:1 or 4:1 Warsaw pact numerical superiority was much less than 'advertised' at the time. The Russian army is by most accounts 'turning this around' in its all volunteer army but it is less than certain it was succeeded. The very static results of the tragic events in the Ukraine suggest the Russians have NOT sorted out all their issues.

This has been repeated generation after generation since WW1. The opponent is not a proficient as advertised and the democracies have the intellectual / industrial / fiscal capital to respond at time of crisis.

--

Red Storm Rising was a very good yarn with some accurate military details; however I am uncertain it can be relied upon as a fully accurate assessment of what might of happened.

Many strategic constraints placed by "the author(s) - TC had a lot of help in that book" - such as no push into Turkey or the Middle East are "plot devices" not realistic scenarios





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Post #: 50
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/29/2020 10:19:11 PM   
RangerJoe


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The Soviets also had an emphasis on items produced, not items maintained. So they would produce the tanks, farm tractors, or whatever but not enough spare parts.

I talked with someone who had been in the Polish Army before he relocated and some of his fall field exercises was harvesting potatoes. So there was that problem as well.

If a Soviet solder got into trouble, his enlistment was extended. I am sure that helped with the morale when then soldiers became too inebriated then got extensions to their enlistments.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Macclan5)
Post #: 51
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/29/2020 10:37:47 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The Soviets also had an emphasis on items produced, not items maintained. So they would produce the tanks, farm tractors, or whatever but not enough spare parts.

I talked with someone who had been in the Polish Army before he relocated and some of his fall field exercises was harvesting potatoes. So there was that problem as well.

If a Soviet solder got into trouble, his enlistment was extended. I am sure that helped with the morale when then soldiers became too inebriated then got extensions to their enlistments.

IIRC, the alcohol for vodka comes from .... potatoes. Looks like a self-sustaining loop there.

_____________________________

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(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 52
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/29/2020 11:30:44 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The Soviets also had an emphasis on items produced, not items maintained. So they would produce the tanks, farm tractors, or whatever but not enough spare parts.

I talked with someone who had been in the Polish Army before he relocated and some of his fall field exercises was harvesting potatoes. So there was that problem as well.

If a Soviet solder got into trouble, his enlistment was extended. I am sure that helped with the morale when then soldiers became too inebriated then got extensions to their enlistments.

IIRC, the alcohol for vodka comes from .... potatoes. Looks like a self-sustaining loop there.


Or it comes from sugar beets.

Of course, sugar cane beer after distillation is also good.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

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Post #: 53
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/30/2020 9:00:23 AM   
fcooke

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The airborne still used Sheridans for awhile after the US Cavalry replaced them.

By the way, do you happen to know the full strength of the 11th or 2nd ACR when they were on the border in West Germany?

I don't know what their OOB was. I did read that the AB literally parachuted some Sheridans. Most made it down OK, some did not.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 54
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/30/2020 3:17:43 PM   
RangerJoe


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Well, let us just say that those Cavalry regiments were more than a speed bump.

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Post #: 55
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/30/2020 3:23:49 PM   
fcooke

 

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That could explain the glare that I got from my manager's manager....that said. I need to have my town put a speed bump near my house. It's a 15 MPH posted area due to a 90 degree turn but people take it at 50. I really don't want a car in my living room....

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 56
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/30/2020 3:55:26 PM   
RangerJoe


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Three ground squadrons each with 3 troops of cavalry, 1 tank company, 1 how battery of 155mm M109s.

The troops had 3 platoons with 4 tanks (M60, then M1) controlled by the platoon sergeant, the scouts had 2 dragon equipped M113s and 2 M901 ITVs with TOWs plus one M113 for the platoon leader. Later, the scouts were put into 2 platoons and the tankers were put into 2 platoons with the same number of vehicles overall. The hq platoon had a GSR M113 and 3 M113 series with 4.2" mortars. The M113s and M901 ITVs were later replaced with Bradleys.

That is without the stinger platoon at HQ troop with any other support. The regiment also had a combat engineering company. Not to mention an Air squadron with Cobras and Kiowas. There were even Air Farce people assigned to call in their people to play with the Soviets.

In the Bekaa Valley in 1982, one M60a1 destroyed 9 T72s starting at a range of 4000 meters with 9 rounds fired. Of course, that was an Israeli sniper tank.

Edited for: three platoons in the cavalry troops, not two!

< Message edited by RangerJoe -- 6/30/2020 11:16:42 PM >


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(in reply to fcooke)
Post #: 57
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/30/2020 10:47:17 PM   
fcooke

 

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I didn't think an M60 could kill a T72 at that range. Though the Israelis have proven over and and over that they are better trained than their foes.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 58
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/30/2020 10:48:58 PM   
fcooke

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Three ground squadrons each with 3 troops of cavalry, 1 tank company, 1 how battery of 155mm M109s.

The troops had 2 platoons with 4 tanks (M60, then M1) controlled by the platoon sergeant, the scouts had 2 dragon equipped M113s and 2 M901 ITVs with TOWs plus one M113 for the platoon leader. Later, the scouts were put into 2 platoons and the tankers were put into 2 platoons with the same number of vehicles overall. The hq platoon had a GSR M113 and 3 M113 series with 4.2" mortars. The M113s and M901 ITVs were later replaced with Bradleys.

That is without the stinger platoon at HQ troop with any other support. The regiment also had a combat engineering company. Not to mention an Air squadron with Cobras and Kiowas. There were even Air Farce people assigned to call in their people to play with the Soviets.

In the Bekaa Valley in 1982, one M60a1 destroyed 9 T72s starting at a range of 4000 meters with 9 rounds fired. Of course, that was an Israeli sniper tank.

Crikey OOB felon

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 59
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/30/2020 11:21:23 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Three ground squadrons each with 3 troops of cavalry, 1 tank company, 1 how battery of 155mm M109s.

The troops had 2 platoons with 4 tanks (M60, then M1) controlled by the platoon sergeant, the scouts had 2 dragon equipped M113s and 2 M901 ITVs with TOWs plus one M113 for the platoon leader. Later, the scouts were put into 2 platoons and the tankers were put into 2 platoons with the same number of vehicles overall. The hq platoon had a GSR M113 and 3 M113 series with 4.2" mortars. The M113s and M901 ITVs were later replaced with Bradleys.

That is without the stinger platoon at HQ troop with any other support. The regiment also had a combat engineering company. Not to mention an Air squadron with Cobras and Kiowas. There were even Air Farce people assigned to call in their people to play with the Soviets.

In the Bekaa Valley in 1982, one M60a1 destroyed 9 T72s starting at a range of 4000 meters with 9 rounds fired. Of course, that was an Israeli sniper tank.

Crikey OOB felon


All told, that is 53 tanks per ground squadron. A three tank company battalion is 51 tanks. Not to mention the M113/M901s which were then replaced by Bradleys. Each Bradley would have a scout team, not a squad. The three troops had a total of 9 4.2" mortars. That is a little bit of firepower.

M113s would be great for moose hunting. They are supposed to float and usually carry a Ma Deuce.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to fcooke)
Post #: 60
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