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OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edition) - 6/23/2020 5:01:01 PM   
Rusty1961

 

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https://www.flightglobal.com/reduced-f-35-performance-specifications-may-have-significant-operational-impact/108619.article?fbclid=IwAR12l1Ygw9qh4WxtIZReG6LNB2bHITJPtmClPGomtIBV_inrVOGn1-k_-TA

I told you so; this plane is "meat on the table" for Russian/Chinese 2nd+ generation planes, such as the Indian version of the Mig 21.

Let's go point-by-point:

"Turn performance for the US Air Force's F-35A was reduced from 5.3 sustained g's to 4.6 sustained g's. The F-35B had its sustained g's cut from five to 4.5 g's, while the US Navy variant had its turn performance truncated from 5.1 to five sustained g's. Acceleration times"

4.5/4.6gs? Really? Mig 21 Bison can do a sustained 8G turn (later model).

Thrust to weight: Mig 21: .76. F-35A: .87

So the 35 has a superior T-w number, but can only pull 5 gs while the '21 can do an incredible 8 gs.

More Maneuverable Plane: Mig 21 by a mile.

Speed comparison:

On paper the '35 can do Mach 1.6, but the speed has been downgraded to 1.2 and only for limited times of some 40 seconds, lest the skin of the fabric on the plane starts to warp:

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/06/12/supersonic-speeds-could-cause-big-problems-for-the-f-35s-stealth-coating/

So at Mach 1.4 the tail-structure had problems and the skin warped. New speed limits: 1.2 Mach.

Mig 21 top speed: Mach 2.0.

The Lightening also can only go super-sonic for 43 seconds. The '21 has no such limitations.



A flight officer, un-named, said,"What an embarrassment, and there will be obvious tactical implications. Having a maximum sustained turn performance of less than 5g is the equivalent of an [McDonnell Douglas] F-4 or an [Northrop] F-5," another highly experienced fighter pilot says. "[It's] certainly not anywhere near the performance of most fourth and fifth-generation aircraft."

Unreal. What a boondoggle.


For example, an F-35C can only fly at Mach 1.3 in afterburner for 50 cumulative seconds, meaning that a pilot cannot clock 50 seconds at that speed, slow down for a couple seconds and then speed back up. However, the time requirements reset after the pilot operates at military power — an engine power setting that allows for less speed and thrust than afterburner — for a duration of three minutes.

The F-35B can fly for 80 cumulative seconds at Mach 1.2 or 40 seconds at Mach 1.3 without risking damage.

But for both the C and B models, flying at Mach 1.3 over the specified time limits poses the risk of inducing structural damage to the aircraft’s horizontal stabilizer.

It is infeasible for the Navy or Marine Corps to operate the F-35 against a near-peer threat under such restrictions, the documents acknowledge.


I told you so.
Post #: 1
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/23/2020 5:14:46 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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your first link is an article from Jan 2013

And it is being at least a few decades in which speed has not being the main predictor of success in an aircraft design, I believe the F-16 is slower than most Migs, but they have had a better battle record than anything fielded by the Russians; and those super maneuverable Sukhois are great for airshows, but that is it, the Pugachev's cobra is useless in combat


check this:

https://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/f-35-faces-most-critical-test-180971734/

"Fighter aircraft all have to have a level of performance and maneuverability: speed, Gs, turn rate, turn radius, acceleration, climb—all of those things. In the F-35, there’s not a massive change in those performance metrics. The F-35 is better [than legacy aircraft], but not a lot better. But those ways to measure an airplane are not nearly as relevant now as they used to be. They’re not irrelevant, but they are not as important as all the other qualities that you should be measuring an airplane by.
If you were to write down all the ways in which you could measure an airplane—payload, fuel, ordnance, handling—and ask 100 pilots to rank which is the most important, I guarantee you that 100 out of 100 pilots would say “situational awareness.” By far. Not a single pilot in the world would say “turn radius.” Not one. Because the more you know, the more accurately you know it, the better able you are to make a decision.
In situational awareness, the F-35 is superior to all platforms, including the Raptor. I’d never been in an airplane that so effectively and seamlessly integrates information to tell me what’s going on around me—and not just from the radio frequency spectrum, but laser, infrared, electro-optical. That’s usually the first thing people notice when they get in the airplane. They know so much more than they ever knew before.
After situational awareness, you want to be able to dictate access regardless of the capability of the threat. A highly robust air-defense network can deny access. The biggest problem that legacy aircraft have right now is that the threat gets to dictate when and where we fly.
Air-defense networks can also be limiting for stealth aircraft. The first thing you have to think about in the F-35 is managing your signature. In an F-18, you don’t even think about it because everybody sees you the minute you take off, so you don’t spend a lot of time trying to hide. Managing all the components of low observability is very challenging, and pilots have to think about it all the time. And they don’t do it well the first time. We all struggle with that initially. But you de-brief and analyze and start to build a database of the methods being used to detect you. You start to build a strategy that will keep others from finding you. Where do you want to put other people in the formation so you can maximize information sharing and sensor coverage and sensor footprints? It’s really no different, from a philosophical viewpoint, from what we’ve always done. We spend a lot of time trying to figure out what our weaknesses are: What do I need to fix as a pilot?




< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 6/23/2020 5:28:38 PM >


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RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/23/2020 6:50:13 PM   
RangerJoe


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Yes, the Argentinians shot down all of the British Hawker Harriers with the result that the ENTIRE Royal Navy fleet was wiped out. That is why the Falkland Islands are now controlled by Argentina and they are now called the Malvinas. The Argentine ruling junta was not deposed and in fact, Argentina is still ruled by a military junta.

By the way, do you ever go into the sunlight?

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Post #: 3
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/23/2020 7:54:58 PM   
JohnDillworth


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"A horse designed by a committee". I often wonder why we produced so few F-22? It seems a better air superiority fighter and while expensive, most of the development cost was wasted by producing so few.

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RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/23/2020 8:23:14 PM   
RangerJoe


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The F-35 is not an air superiority fighter. Its job is to destroy the enemy's air defence radars plus disrupt the enemy's command and control systems while having some air to air capabilities unlike the F-117.

< Message edited by RangerJoe -- 6/24/2020 1:16:58 AM >


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Post #: 5
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/23/2020 10:24:45 PM   
mrchuck


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Who dogfights in the 21st century? Air combat today involves standing off 1-200 km and blasting your opponent with a brace of missiles. No more Top Gun these days except for primitive air forces in dusty backwaters. If you do find yourself in a dogfight, something much larger has gone horribly wrong.

Mig21 wouldn't last 10 seconds in a modern air war battlespace.

Drones will replace all of them soon enough anyway. It's hard to see much justification for manned air warfare systems these days, apart from the pushback from crusty aviator types.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 6
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/23/2020 10:55:00 PM   
geofflambert


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I think that Firefox is better than anything we have, looks like a mini XB-70. Clint Eastwood is still alive, ain't he?

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RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/23/2020 11:20:22 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I think that Firefox is better than anything we have, looks like a mini XB-70. Clint Eastwood is still alive, ain't he?

Yes, but the contract to get him to steal another 200 Firefoxes would be cost prohibitive!

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Post #: 8
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/23/2020 11:28:43 PM   
mind_messing

 

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I miss Commander Stormwolf

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RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/23/2020 11:36:04 PM   
fcooke

 

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Fun movie.

IMO the F-35 is a nightmare. Trying to jam every capability into one platform means it might be 'OK' at a lot of things but good at nothing. And meanwhile they are trying to kill off the A-10 to help pay for the F-35, because that would be cheaper (please!).

As to the dogfighting comment - we have been there before when cannons were not included in aircraft because it would all be missile warfare leading into Vietnam. That didn't work out so well/ Modern tech almost always comes with issues. And last I checked there was an effort to acquire more updated F-15s to keep the fighter fleet numbers up because the time of production and cost of the F-35 was an issue.

Hopefully this post is not considered political.

Time to watch a mindless fun movie. Or perhaps a good one.

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Post #: 10
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/24/2020 12:09:53 AM   
Knavey

 

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A Mig 21 vs F 35? Really? Are you kidding me? Besides being a 7 year old article, if you believe it, would you really jump in a Mig 21 and take your chances?

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RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/24/2020 12:39:46 AM   
fcooke

 

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I did see an F-35 demo at an airshow last summer. It could do some pretty cool things. But then the Blue Angels got up and literally floored me. Of course it was 95% pilot, and the Blues actually fly one of the older Hornets. The Red Arrows were there too. I had seen them before. But the old saying about 'its the pilot, not the plane' really got drilled home.

There was also a team of Texans who made those 70 year old birds look like baby chicks. Was a good day - until trying to get out of the parking lot......

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Post #: 12
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/24/2020 1:31:11 AM   
CaptBeefheart


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I'm with Jorge. You guys need to play some C:MANO (or the newer version, CMO), or the old Harpoon. Sensors, datalinks, long-range fire-and-forget missiles: That's what wins air battles. Yes, the cannon can come in handy, but usually after the battle is decided.

However, I still think that the USAF and USN versions should have had a completely different airframe than the vertical-takeoff version. They could still have shared 95% of the avionics. The area rule-busting airframe required for vertical takeoff is a non-starter.

Cheers,
CB

< Message edited by CaptBeefheart -- 6/24/2020 1:40:23 AM >


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RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/24/2020 1:44:37 AM   
geofflambert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I think that Firefox is better than anything we have, looks like a mini XB-70. Clint Eastwood is still alive, ain't he?

Yes, but the contract to get him to steal another 200 Firefoxes would be cost prohibitive!


You must think in Russian. Pay him in kopeks.


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Post #: 14
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/24/2020 3:01:24 AM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I think that Firefox is better than anything we have, looks like a mini XB-70. Clint Eastwood is still alive, ain't he?

Yes, but the contract to get him to steal another 200 Firefoxes would be cost prohibitive!


You must think in Russian. Pay him in kopeks.




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Post #: 15
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/24/2020 3:44:17 AM   
Rondor11


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The F22 is The USA's true fighter superiority aircraft and is not exported for a reason. The F35 is a completely different aircraft that really is not intended for much A2A inside of BVR.



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RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/24/2020 5:08:47 PM   
Macclan5


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There are obviously a lot of boosters and detractors of the F35 program.

Canada not the least.

I am certain the program is neither as good as some advertise nor as bad as other advertise. Inevitably the boosters focus on capability - the detractors on capability verses cost. We wont really have definitive assessed proof probably for many years ( as we learned with the F4 Phantoms with no guns, the F14 Tomcat as a carrier monster, the F16 as too big and heavy)

One can search the "interweb thingy" and find an article to support any view you wish to forward. Some reputable some not some current some old etc. Pro or Con

I think it is important to recall

1) A single plane or squadron of planes do not fight on their own. In addition other air superiority measures - AWACs, GPS, Drones heavens knows what - contribute to the overall tactical plan. This is not 1917 - dog fights over the trenches are not the 'only' facet of air combat.

2) The planes are also part of 'much more' combined arms tactics nowadays. Far more so since 1945. Far more so than Nam. Far more so than the first Gulf war although that is the most relevant comparison. Its not just other air superiority measures. Its ground forces / ships / helicopters and heaven know what more.

3) Western programs are subject to far more scrutiny than Russian / Chinese / weapons programs etc. Simply freedom of the press and public cost accounting drive this greater transparency. There is a laundry list of failed Soviet / German (Axis) / Japanese (Axis) programs - however we generally find out many years latter because their military's are not subject to the same level of scrutiny or analysis.

As I say there are plenty of booster / detractors with many (self serving - argument) points.

Its all rather academic as they are just deploying now and have hardly been used.

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Post #: 17
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/24/2020 5:16:10 PM   
USSAmerica


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I miss Commander Stormwolf




His spirit lives on. People still give this guy an audience.

< Message edited by USSAmerica -- 6/24/2020 5:20:26 PM >


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RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/24/2020 5:32:13 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

There are obviously a lot of boosters and detractors of the F35 program.

Canada not the least.

I am certain the program is neither as good as some advertise nor as bad as other advertise. Inevitably the boosters focus on capability - the detractors on capability verses cost. We wont really have definitive assessed proof probably for many years ( as we learned with the F4 Phantoms with no guns, the F14 Tomcat as a carrier monster, the F16 as too big and heavy)

One can search the "interweb thingy" and find an article to support any view you wish to forward. Some reputable some not some current some old etc. Pro or Con

I think it is important to recall

1) A single plane or squadron of planes do not fight on their own. In addition other air superiority measures - AWACs, GPS, Drones heavens knows what - contribute to the overall tactical plan. This is not 1917 - dog fights over the trenches are not the 'only' facet of air combat.

2) The planes are also part of 'much more' combined arms tactics nowadays. Far more so since 1945. Far more so than Nam. Far more so than the first Gulf war although that is the most relevant comparison. Its not just other air superiority measures. Its ground forces / ships / helicopters and heaven know what more.

3) Western programs are subject to far more scrutiny than Russian / Chinese / weapons programs etc. Simply freedom of the press and public cost accounting drive this greater transparency. There is a laundry list of failed Soviet / German (Axis) / Japanese (Axis) programs - however we generally find out many years latter because their military's are not subject to the same level of scrutiny or analysis.

As I say there are plenty of booster / detractors with many (self serving - argument) points.

Its all rather academic as they are just deploying now and have hardly been used.


Eh, how are our old Hornets adjusting to the cold?

The F-35 is the only true 5G plane option to the West. Critics have simply not understood what true 5G is. The F-35 is not intended to be all the things which the critics find fault with. The correct viewpoint is to view the F-35 (and any true 5G plane) as the conductor of the orchestra. A conductor brings out the greater synergy of the parts. The resulting performance is greater than the sum of the parts.

Alfred

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Post #: 19
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/24/2020 7:21:36 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14046
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

There are obviously a lot of boosters and detractors of the F35 program.

Canada not the least.

I am certain the program is neither as good as some advertise nor as bad as other advertise. Inevitably the boosters focus on capability - the detractors on capability verses cost. We wont really have definitive assessed proof probably for many years ( as we learned with the F4 Phantoms with no guns, the F14 Tomcat as a carrier monster, the F16 as too big and heavy)

One can search the "interweb thingy" and find an article to support any view you wish to forward. Some reputable some not some current some old etc. Pro or Con

I think it is important to recall

1) A single plane or squadron of planes do not fight on their own. In addition other air superiority measures - AWACs, GPS, Drones heavens knows what - contribute to the overall tactical plan. This is not 1917 - dog fights over the trenches are not the 'only' facet of air combat.

2) The planes are also part of 'much more' combined arms tactics nowadays. Far more so since 1945. Far more so than Nam. Far more so than the first Gulf war although that is the most relevant comparison. Its not just other air superiority measures. Its ground forces / ships / helicopters and heaven know what more.

3) Western programs are subject to far more scrutiny than Russian / Chinese / weapons programs etc. Simply freedom of the press and public cost accounting drive this greater transparency. There is a laundry list of failed Soviet / German (Axis) / Japanese (Axis) programs - however we generally find out many years latter because their military's are not subject to the same level of scrutiny or analysis.

As I say there are plenty of booster / detractors with many (self serving - argument) points.

Its all rather academic as they are just deploying now and have hardly been used.


Eh, how are our old Hornets adjusting to the cold?

The F-35 is the only true 5G plane option to the West. Critics have simply not understood what true 5G is. The F-35 is not intended to be all the things which the critics find fault with. The correct viewpoint is to view the F-35 (and any true 5G plane) as the conductor of the orchestra. A conductor brings out the greater synergy of the parts. The resulting performance is greater than the sum of the parts.

Alfred


This is what I've read as well. It's a design looking forward. What will air combat look like in ten years?

There will be a lot more unmanned aircraft for all purposes, and the F-35 can help run that show with it's stealth, situational awareness and information gathering ability as mentioned in Jorge_Stanbury's post above.

It isn't an air superiority fighter as we've seen before, but is that the model for the future? Probably not. Stick it up there with 100 drones and it'll be a different story.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/29690/b-21s-with-air-to-air-capabilities-drones-not-6th-gen-fighters-to-dominate-future-air-combat

A number of senior Air Force leaders have offered updates about NGAD recently, all of who stressed that the final force mixture will include a variety of different platforms, as well as munitions and other systems, all tied together at various levels. This could include manned aircraft networked together with “loyal wingman” drones, fully autonomous unmanned combat air vehicles (UCAV), swarms of low-cost unmanned aircraft, and more.

< Message edited by obvert -- 6/24/2020 7:24:57 PM >


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Post #: 20
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/25/2020 2:40:29 PM   
Macclan5


Posts: 1021
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Eh, how are our old Hornets adjusting to the cold?

The F-35 is the only true 5G plane option to the West. Critics have simply not understood what true 5G is. The F-35 is not intended to be all the things which the critics find fault with. The correct viewpoint is to view the F-35 (and any true 5G plane) as the conductor of the orchestra. A conductor brings out the greater synergy of the parts. The resulting performance is greater than the sum of the parts.

Alfred


Alfred

We warm them up with the special magical potion - Tim Horton's Coffee (trademark). The stuff "Canadian-izes" everything animate or inanimate

--

A very fair observation on the F35 about 5G - I think we are in violent agreement.

The detractors tend to critic the "known capability" especially based on a cost / capability assessment.

The boosters tend to stress "capability and future capability" which is less well understood.

However I think the "full and reasonable" assessment will not be known for some time.

Further Russian / Chinese 5G entries will never be given a 'full and reasonable" assessment as they are not open to disclosing facts / costs about their programs.

We mostly learn about the failures of such programs well after the fact.





_____________________________

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Post #: 21
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/25/2020 2:56:36 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 15471
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Eh, how are our old Hornets adjusting to the cold?

The F-35 is the only true 5G plane option to the West. Critics have simply not understood what true 5G is. The F-35 is not intended to be all the things which the critics find fault with. The correct viewpoint is to view the F-35 (and any true 5G plane) as the conductor of the orchestra. A conductor brings out the greater synergy of the parts. The resulting performance is greater than the sum of the parts.

Alfred


Alfred

We warm them up with the special magical potion - Tim Horton's Coffee (trademark). The stuff "Canadian-izes" everything animate or inanimate

--

A very fair observation on the F35 about 5G - I think we are in violent agreement.

The detractors tend to critic the "known capability" especially based on a cost / capability assessment.

The boosters tend to stress "capability and future capability" which is less well understood.

However I think the "full and reasonable" assessment will not be known for some time.

Further Russian / Chinese 5G entries will never be given a 'full and reasonable" assessment as they are not open to disclosing facts / costs about their programs.

We mostly learn about the failures of such programs well after the fact.

Yes, the much-hyped Soviet Foxbat interceptor had a fatal flaw - it's pilots wanted to be on the NATO side!

_____________________________

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Post #: 22
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/25/2020 7:00:15 PM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 825
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Boston, London, Hoboken, now Warwick, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

There are obviously a lot of boosters and detractors of the F35 program.

Canada not the least.

I am certain the program is neither as good as some advertise nor as bad as other advertise. Inevitably the boosters focus on capability - the detractors on capability verses cost. We wont really have definitive assessed proof probably for many years ( as we learned with the F4 Phantoms with no guns, the F14 Tomcat as a carrier monster, the F16 as too big and heavy)

One can search the "interweb thingy" and find an article to support any view you wish to forward. Some reputable some not some current some old etc. Pro or Con

I think it is important to recall

1) A single plane or squadron of planes do not fight on their own. In addition other air superiority measures - AWACs, GPS, Drones heavens knows what - contribute to the overall tactical plan. This is not 1917 - dog fights over the trenches are not the 'only' facet of air combat.

2) The planes are also part of 'much more' combined arms tactics nowadays. Far more so since 1945. Far more so than Nam. Far more so than the first Gulf war although that is the most relevant comparison. Its not just other air superiority measures. Its ground forces / ships / helicopters and heaven know what more.

3) Western programs are subject to far more scrutiny than Russian / Chinese / weapons programs etc. Simply freedom of the press and public cost accounting drive this greater transparency. There is a laundry list of failed Soviet / German (Axis) / Japanese (Axis) programs - however we generally find out many years latter because their military's are not subject to the same level of scrutiny or analysis.

As I say there are plenty of booster / detractors with many (self serving - argument) points.

Its all rather academic as they are just deploying now and have hardly been used.


Eh, how are our old Hornets adjusting to the cold?

The F-35 is the only true 5G plane option to the West. Critics have simply not understood what true 5G is. The F-35 is not intended to be all the things which the critics find fault with. The correct viewpoint is to view the F-35 (and any true 5G plane) as the conductor of the orchestra. A conductor brings out the greater synergy of the parts. The resulting performance is greater than the sum of the parts.

Alfred

I think the F22 also qualifies as 5G

And are not the Sentrys and Hawkeyes supposed to do that battlespace management thingy?

I remember the Spruance DDs were built with not a lot of weapons with the idea that they would easy to upgrade. Never really happened in a material way. The Kidds always seemed to be more capable and are still around today (Taiwan I believe).

I hope the program ends up being a success. But I am a firm believer in having specialized aircraft rather than 'everything in one'.

And I really hope we never live to see how good/bad Russian/Chinese models are, because as alluded to - that will only happen via combat.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 23
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/25/2020 8:33:57 PM   
BBfanboy


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+1 On never testing out the hardware in live action. Unfortunately, it looks like India and China could end up in a shooting war because China seems to be flexing muscles that don't really need to be flexed. It seems likely that Western nations would back India and send hardware there, if not the people to operate it. I think Russia is also leery of China's growing power and they have some border issues there too - so Russia is unlikely to back China. Still a dangerous powder keg that needs some really good diplomacy to cool it down.

_____________________________

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(in reply to fcooke)
Post #: 24
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/26/2020 12:41:35 AM   
RangerJoe


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I enjoyed Tim Horton's coffee when I could get it.

The Chinese and Russians could see how they compare against each other. I would not complain too much unless they decided to have the other side glow in the dark.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 25
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/26/2020 12:50:36 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21096
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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Tom Clancy was an awesome writer who faded under the obligation to contractually write books. IE, his later works were pretty much uniformly awful.

But I remember one book he wrote (or possibly co-wrote) about a war between China and Russia. He used the term "hyper war" to describe the frenetic pace of modern warfare incorporating lasers, computers, drones, etc. That was the first time I'd heard that term and it stuck with me.

Months ago, in Covid Thread I, a forumite noted that high stress sometimes results in a cascade effect (Michael Crichton used that term in Air Frame). The forumite hoped that the pressure on different countries wouldn't trigger a war, especially one involving major powers. To this point that hasn't happened, though it probably has contributed to the taut internal situation in the US.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 26
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/26/2020 2:40:04 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 15471
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Tom Clancy was an awesome writer who faded under the obligation to contractually write books. IE, his later works were pretty much uniformly awful.

But I remember one book he wrote (or possibly co-wrote) about a war between China and Russia. He used the term "hyper war" to describe the frenetic pace of modern warfare incorporating lasers, computers, drones, etc. That was the first time I'd heard that term and it stuck with me.

Months ago, in Covid Thread I, a forumite noted that high stress sometimes results in a cascade effect (Michael Crichton used that term in Air Frame). The forumite hoped that the pressure on different countries wouldn't trigger a war, especially one involving major powers. To this point that hasn't happened, though it probably has contributed to the taut internal situation in the US.

I think the book was "The Dragon and the Bear". China was bent on grabbing an area on the disputed Russia/China boundary because gold had been found there. US Intel discovered the plan and arranged to send the Black Horse Armoured Division secretly through Russia to the border with China. The Russians kicked the rust off of some of their old tanks and set up an ambush with the help of high-tech field intel from the Americans. Of course, the US saves the day - one of those predictable plots that brought down Tom Clancy's reputation.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 27
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/26/2020 10:42:14 AM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 825
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From: Boston, London, Hoboken, now Warwick, NY
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I did like a lot of the early Clancy stuff, and actually rented 'The Hunt for Red October a coupe of nights ago'. I have read Red Storm Rising numerous times. Also like some of the Larry Bond stuff. I know I used to have Airframe, but a number of things seem to have gone missing in our move a couple of years ago, including maybe a third of Morrison's naval history of the US in WW2. While not always accurate, it gives a sense of beliefs at the time. And it was a damn expensive set to buy

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 28
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/26/2020 11:02:47 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8209
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Tom Clancy was an awesome writer who faded under the obligation to contractually write books. IE, his later works were pretty much uniformly awful.

But I remember one book he wrote (or possibly co-wrote) about a war between China and Russia. He used the term "hyper war" to describe the frenetic pace of modern warfare incorporating lasers, computers, drones, etc. That was the first time I'd heard that term and it stuck with me.

Months ago, in Covid Thread I, a forumite noted that high stress sometimes results in a cascade effect (Michael Crichton used that term in Air Frame). The forumite hoped that the pressure on different countries wouldn't trigger a war, especially one involving major powers. To this point that hasn't happened, though it probably has contributed to the taut internal situation in the US.

I think the book was "The Dragon and the Bear". China was bent on grabbing an area on the disputed Russia/China boundary because gold had been found there. US Intel discovered the plan and arranged to send the Black Horse Armoured Division secretly through Russia to the border with China. The Russians kicked the rust off of some of their old tanks and set up an ambush with the help of high-tech field intel from the Americans. Of course, the US saves the day - one of those predictable plots that brought down Tom Clancy's reputation.


The Blackhorse is an Armored Cavalry Regiment, not a division. It is very powerful for its size and highly trained.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 29
RE: OT: F-35 Performance downgraded (I told you so edit... - 6/26/2020 1:06:43 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21096
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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Oops, mis-post. Ignore.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 6/26/2020 1:15:54 PM >

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 30
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