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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System

 
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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System - 6/18/2020 7:08:51 PM   
wodin


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I feel the problem is more a case of confusion than broken systems.

Some kind of logistics manual would help maybe?

As for micro managing and macro, can't we have both? SO a player can choose more automated mechanics or more hands on.

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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System - 6/18/2020 7:26:56 PM   
ricanuck

 

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It was a subtle conversation during the beta test that the game would not be dumbed down like many other "strategy" games... and Vic was always in agreement with that ethos.

I doubt he will change his mind. Don't worry.

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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System - 6/18/2020 7:42:56 PM   
kosmoface

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ricanuck

It was a subtle conversation during the beta test that the game would not be dumbed down like many other "strategy" games... and Vic was always in agreement with that ethos.

I doubt he will change his mind. Don't worry.


This would be absolutely great. My vote: Please leave Logistics as it is.

I think Player input is great, BUT an artist has a vision and some game devs let their vision blur by outside input and in turn destroy perfectly fine systems i.e. their vision. And I have "lost" some games because of this. This game is a monument, the vision should prevail.

< Message edited by kosmoface -- 6/18/2020 7:46:15 PM >

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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System - 6/18/2020 7:48:16 PM   
KingHalford

 

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Now the ability to remove roads has been added, I feel the original complaint, that "I have to change a huge amount (70+ was the figure given in one example) traffic lights EVERY TURN in order to get my logistics to work" now makes even less sense than it did before.

All follow up arguments that state that the traffic lights are unnecessary micromanagement must assume then that players are either not using the remove road feature, building bad logistics systems themselves or are not building enough supply points that they're constantly having to fiddle with the traffic management to continually squeeze a few extra LIS points. I'm fairly sure this wasn't the way the game was intended, considering that Vic has made some clear design choices in other areas that strongly discourage turn-by-turn exploits like that.

Someone else said it here and I'm also repeating myself from the previous thread but if you're having to micromanage the traffic lights every single turn you're doing something wrong. Everybody has to place a few traffic lights here and there as they develop in the early game, it's no more micromanagement than anything else in this micro-heavy game and it takes two seconds to place a few lights on a junction. Even before removing roads there was never the need to change the traffic lights every single turn, but now the roads are removable it's easy to clean up the excess road systems that the AI makes. I expect the micro necessary to do that is somewhat less intensive than traffic management, so we're all net-winners with that change, and I'm interested to see how Vic is going to approach this, but it feels to me that we're fighting a paper tiger with this one.



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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System - 6/18/2020 7:53:25 PM   
KingHalford

 

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On the subject of general logistics issues, I think 90% of the confusion lies in players not understanding that changes made to logistics (roads, traffic lights) can take anywhere between 1 and 2 turns to really see any effect. The delay to logistics is explicitly stated in the manual but I think it might be wise if perhaps there's a Tutorial message in-game that highlights when you're units are not receiving supply and why, or there is some direct communication (that's more obvious than digging through the reports) each time it happens (but give me the option to turn it off because now I know how it works I don't want that.)

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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System - 6/18/2020 8:39:41 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford
Now the ability to remove roads has been added...

I've been looking for this feature unsuccessfully in v1.03--where is it?

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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System - 6/18/2020 8:39:51 PM   
ricanuck

 

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About the "traffic lights": I remember at some point in the beta I suggested more control over the "forks" in the LIS system... not taking any credit, but after that Vic came up with the idea and implementation of the traffic lights...

The point is: the TF system is a HUGE improvement over what was before, where there was NO micromanagement (oh, the horror, that word ) at all, and the system ran itself often wasting valuable LIS points in dead end roads.. now you have control. Use it, or go play Civ.

Cheers,

< Message edited by ricanuck -- 6/18/2020 8:40:16 PM >

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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System - 6/18/2020 9:32:52 PM   
GodwinW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford
Now the ability to remove roads has been added...

I've been looking for this feature unsuccessfully in v1.03--where is it?


In the 'Built Road' menu where you choose the type of road.

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 38
RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System - 6/18/2020 9:33:48 PM   
GodwinW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ricanuck

About the "traffic lights": I remember at some point in the beta I suggested more control over the "forks" in the LIS system... not taking any credit, but after that Vic came up with the idea and implementation of the traffic lights...

The point is: the TF system is a HUGE improvement over what was before, where there was NO micromanagement (oh, the horror, that word ) at all, and the system ran itself often wasting valuable LIS points in dead end roads.. now you have control. Use it, or go play Civ.

Cheers,


Oh man, thank you and Vic for that. Such a huge improvement over not having them! :D

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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System - 6/18/2020 9:43:38 PM   
Bleek


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Don't allow the vocal minority to ruin things.

True of many aspects in life; logistics included!

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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System - 6/18/2020 10:34:29 PM   
WeaverofBrokenThreads

 

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Would be nice if people actually read the thread they are providing their 'perceptive social commentary' on, before they call people idiots for not being able to figure out something 'so simple'. And I can tell that you didn't read ****, or can even comprehend the intricacies of the problem that was discussed in that thread. I don't care what Vic does with the logistics system as razing roads solves the major issue, but I sure hope he doesn't listen to someone who thinks starting another thread about it will help, and then flames people in it.

< Message edited by WeaverofBrokenThreads -- 6/18/2020 10:35:18 PM >

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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System - 6/18/2020 10:51:54 PM   
KingHalford

 

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Yes it's completely inaccurate to state that people are "too stupid to understand it". That's not very fair or helpful to the debate really, and I understand why that's caused friction.

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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System - 6/18/2020 10:55:29 PM   
eddieballgame

 

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My 2 cents...The current Logistic System is superb per the recent patches.

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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System - 6/18/2020 11:02:18 PM   
willgamer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ricanuck

About the "traffic lights": I remember at some point in the beta I suggested more control over the "forks" in the LIS system... not taking any credit, but after that Vic came up with the idea and implementation of the traffic lights...

The point is: the TF system is a HUGE improvement over what was before, where there was NO micromanagement (oh, the horror, that word ) at all, and the system ran itself often wasting valuable LIS points in dead end roads.. now you have control. Use it, or go play Civ.

Cheers,



Speaking of forks in the roads, do people understand that in many cases you can delete intersections that fork and rebuild substantial portions of the road network without using forks.

This can be hugh and series...!

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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System - 6/18/2020 11:03:23 PM   
feldwebel87

 

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Keep the logistics system as is, please!

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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System - 6/19/2020 1:07:28 AM   
ricanuck

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willgamer


quote:

ORIGINAL: ricanuck

About the "traffic lights": I remember at some point in the beta I suggested more control over the "forks" in the LIS system... not taking any credit, but after that Vic came up with the idea and implementation of the traffic lights...

The point is: the TF system is a HUGE improvement over what was before, where there was NO micromanagement (oh, the horror, that word ) at all, and the system ran itself often wasting valuable LIS points in dead end roads.. now you have control. Use it, or go play Civ.

Cheers,



Speaking of forks in the roads, do people understand that in many cases you can delete intersections that fork and rebuild substantial portions of the road network without using forks.

This can be hugh and series...!


EXACTLY.

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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System - 6/19/2020 1:25:17 AM   
liq3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gatsby
We have not run into one logistics problem that could not be solved with the logic inherent in the game. Either its a traffic signal, a truck depot upgrade,a supply depot to extend or a myriad of other tweaks. Its wonderful to actually have a logistics tail which can be micromanaged like this.


quote:

If I have overloaded a front with battalions I had better accommodate it.

These are two separate things. The first is tedious micromanagement. The second is an actual strategic decision. The first is what I have an problem with. I don't want to be changing a bunch of road signs because I increased the LPs upstream and now a bunch of deadends with production buildings have too much LP.

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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System - 6/19/2020 2:30:16 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW
In the 'Built Road' menu where you choose the type of road.

Not there in my game--v1.03?

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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System - 6/19/2020 2:33:07 AM   
border10


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It's in the open beta version

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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System - 6/19/2020 7:41:04 PM   
geforth


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I like the logistics system of shadow Empire! Great work

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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System - 6/20/2020 10:54:58 AM   
Dampfnudel

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gatsby

I started a new thread because I came here to see if there was a new update and lo and behold I saw this thread about the logistics system being a mess...I immediately fired off a reply because I was flabbergasted and worried that the designer would start to screw around with the logistics because of a few people who can't figure it out.

As I said in my other post: This is the one of the best games I have ever bought and I have been buying these things for a long long time. My 20 year old son and I have been playing non stop since it came out. We have not run into one logistics problem that could not be solved with the logic inherent in the game. Either its a traffic signal, a truck depot upgrade,a supply depot to extend or a myriad of other tweaks. Its wonderful to actually have a logistics tail which can be micromanaged like this.If I have overloaded a front with battalions I had better accommodate it.

I understand that we live in a culture that if we don't like the ending of a show or movie we expect the creators to change it. I joke that maybe the groundlings should have shouted to Shakespeare to change the ending of Hamlet because its too bloody and I don't want Hamlet to die. Its the same idea that if I say something that offends you I should stop saying it ...LOL...Okay Lenny Bruce shut the f*** up?

Once again Please Please do not change the logistics system to accommodate these folk. There are loads of games with simple pull systems. Hold the line be true to your vision.If you think its broken okay I get it but to change it because a few people can't or won't figure it out. I read that entire thread and I didn't see one problem that wasn't solvable with a little time and a little manual. This game takes some work. I like that.Hold the line. LOL


The topic is not about people who can not figure it out. But because people DID figure it out.

The current logistic system is pushing logistical capacity where it is not needed unless told not to do that.
So every time the private open up a new farm, the entire logistical system of your empire goes into chaos, as thousands of trucks drive down to this newly constructed farm. This forces the player to continuously put traffic signs to avoid this situation.

The placement of these traffic signs involve no meaningful choice. But are simply a tedious and boring chore.

Nobody is upset about having logistics as a meaningful part of the game. Nobody wants to remove meaningful choices about where to prioritize logistics.

It is only about removing non-meaningful choices.

< Message edited by Dampfnudel -- 6/20/2020 10:58:58 AM >

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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System - 6/20/2020 12:23:48 PM   
AttuWatcher

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dampfnudel

The current logistic system is pushing logistical capacity where it is not needed unless told not to do that.
So every time the private open up a new farm, the entire logistical system of your empire goes into chaos, as thousands of trucks drive down to this newly constructed farm. This forces the player to continuously put traffic signs to avoid this situation.


1. The situation you are describing does not happen literally every turn, or even on the majority of turns. I'm fully in support of smart, minimal changes, like removing roads, which I pushed for on several posts, but let's not exaggerate the problem and pressure people with hyperbole. Even from day 1 with no patches the logistics system was never bad or hyper-tedious, just unpolished.

2. Make every private building only draw the resources it needs to operate. Think of it as an invisible, automatic, finely tuned traffic sign. Problem solved. For public assets, you built it, it's your problem to manage it.

3. The above improvement, coupled with removable roads that we already have, and maybe 1-2 new expanded / refined UI logistics filters and job is done. This system does not need drastic changes, or even very many of them.


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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System - 6/20/2020 1:29:32 PM   
jpwrunyan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tortugapower
1. Logistics system as-is is very opaque. Forgive the ego, but I consider myself decent-to-advanced at understanding wargames, and I don't understand it. This is ultimately a design decision, but that means the game -- which has great appeal so far to a widespread group, beyond hardcore wargamers -- likely won't be understood by newcomers, who will get frustrated and stop playing. (I've already seen this happening.)


This. I don't think the logistics system is complicated, but its presentation both in-game and in the manual is terrible. If I can't understand it, you have a problem. I've written more complicated code than what I know is running under the hood for this logistics simulation. I'm no Mr. Spock, but you shouldn't have to be to understand this basic math system. And it shouldn't take 100's of hours of trial-and-error in-game to figure it out. It also shouldn't require a membership in the Matrix forums where you have to scroll and search through pages of BS and un-funny ****posts to find help. The manual should have far more examples if nothing else.

Let me be clear: I am solidly on the side of those who do *not* want to see the system changed. I want to see the system clarified and explained *by the developer* first. I want to see the interface corrected and made helpful. In other words, I want to see the current mess cleaned up before adding more to muck it all up further.

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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System - 6/20/2020 2:41:19 PM   
Dampfnudel

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AttuWatcher


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dampfnudel

The current logistic system is pushing logistical capacity where it is not needed unless told not to do that.
So every time the private open up a new farm, the entire logistical system of your empire goes into chaos, as thousands of trucks drive down to this newly constructed farm. This forces the player to continuously put traffic signs to avoid this situation.


1. The situation you are describing does not happen literally every turn, or even on the majority of turns. I'm fully in support of smart, minimal changes, like removing roads, which I pushed for on several posts, but let's not exaggerate the problem and pressure people with hyperbole. Even from day 1 with no patches the logistics system was never bad or hyper-tedious, just unpolished.

2. Make every private building only draw the resources it needs to operate. Think of it as an invisible, automatic, finely tuned traffic sign. Problem solved. For public assets, you built it, it's your problem to manage it.

3. The above improvement, coupled with removable roads that we already have, and maybe 1-2 new expanded / refined UI logistics filters and job is done. This system does not need drastic changes, or even very many of them.



Well that "invisible, automatic, finely tuned traffic sign" is the "drastic change" the entire debatte is about and what we hope to receive.

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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System - 6/20/2020 5:55:01 PM   
jwarrenw13

 

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Keep the logistics system. It isn't 'broke' so don't 'fix' it, Vic. The logistics system is great. It could use improvements, incremental improvements, and Vic is doing that.

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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System - 6/21/2020 3:55:11 AM   
hagamablabla_slith

 

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I've played enough that I understand and have gotten used to working with the current logistics system. However, can someone explain to me why they think it makes sense to have things work this way? The way it works now, it's like my entire fleet of trucks is being sent out first, and then their cargo magically appears in the truck when they arrive. Why else would I have half my trucks go down a branch in the road that leads to nothing?

I know I could remove that road or put a traffic sign on it, but my question is why the system sends those trucks down that road to begin with.

< Message edited by hagamablabla_slith -- 6/21/2020 4:06:31 AM >

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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System - 6/21/2020 6:06:47 AM   
Munashe

 

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I'll just chime in that while I don't have a 100% mastery of the system, I've learned enough that I can see what the problem in my supply lines is, and know how to fix it. For example, need more distance: sealed roads/supply depot, need more throughput: truck station. If distance and throughput are a major issue: rail station at the origin, rail head/station + truck station at the destination. I make use of signs to prune any unused roads, and layout my roads in as much of tree-like fashion as I can. Hearing that the latest beta allows for removal of roads (and rails?) will make things a lot nicer for me. One thing I'm curious about is resource flow. Can a city with the ability to reach another, but not the other way around, grab resources from the city that cannot reach, or do supplies/resources only flow from a sender? If A can reach B, and B cannot reach A, can B "use" A's reach to send resources back to A?

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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System - 6/21/2020 6:16:36 AM   
LordAldrich

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Munashe
...Can a city with the ability to reach another, but not the other way around, grab resources from the city that cannot reach, or do supplies/resources only flow from a sender? If A can reach B, and B cannot reach A, can B "use" A's reach to send resources back to A?


"Cities" and don't really exist as logistical entities. The basic resource flow is:

1. A zone asset (like a mine) needs access to 100 LP per level in order to produce.
2. Whatever it produces goes into the Zone inventory (you can see this in the inventory tab on the bottom).
3. The SHQ uses LP to retrieve resources from the zone inventories and store them in the SHQ stockpile.
4. The SHQ uses LP to send resources to any zone or unit that needs them.

There must exist LPs on the path between the SHQ and everything else. Where those LPs come from doesn't matter. So there's not really any sense of "reach" from one city to another. If there's a path of LPs between them they're connected, if not, they're not.

Things get *crazy* if you have multiple SHQs, which is why pretty much no one builds multiple SHQs. Ever.

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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System - 6/21/2020 6:31:26 AM   
Munashe

 

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I see, so it's more like water than something that travels from one point to another. Maybe that's a bad analogy, but you cleared things up for me. What exactly do the percentages per tile and numbers in parentheses mean in bottleneck mode?

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RE: Please Do Not Change Logistics System - 6/21/2020 6:54:45 AM   
LordAldrich

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Munashe

I see, so it's more like water than something that travels from one point to another. Maybe that's a bad analogy, but you cleared things up for me. What exactly do the percentages per tile and numbers in parentheses mean in bottleneck mode?


Yeah, all resource redistribution flows through the SHQ. Just to clarify, the city hexes are what the SHQ uses to access the zone inventory, so you do need a path of LPs between your cities. Rail is really good for this.

The percentages on roads in the bottleneck display are simply the Used LPs divided by the Initial LPs. Anywhere that's zero you know you need more LPs, either by building a bigger truck depot or using traffic signals to route more LPs down that road.

The percentages that are in parenthesis are part of the dotted lines that lead to units. They're in parenthesis so that you can tell them apart from the road LP. The dotted lines are the units "organic supply" (organic being a military term for a support unit that's integrated directly as part of your unit). They pull supplies from the nearest road. I think that percentage is the portion of supplies they requested that were successfully delivered. But it's not quite as clear.

(in reply to Munashe)
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