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The vent - 6/18/2020 3:02:14 AM   
BrianG

 

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must let off steam

So Tyronec, gets himself in deep and has many tanks sit for one turn as he tries to reestablish the north pocket. So what happens, Russians attack to get to pocket and in 4 different battles, 4 full panzer divisions activate in reserve to stop all these key battles. These units did not move the clean up turn but at least 2 had very long supply lines the prior turn. Yet no issues for the Germans. The Russians cant even get mp's of 20 after moving a tank corp for a turn. And if they sit a turn, then half the time they actually drop in mp the next turn. I've discussed this in another vent thread.

Oh and then i finally get a retreat and what does the German unit do, he retreats over a river when a clear non river hex was just behind. and it was closer to supply. so much for point calculations.

And for someone about to lose Baku twice, the game supply points and ease of supply for Germans getting over the mountains really needs fixing. And there is no ability to counter the German flank(due to supply change mostly). Take Stalingrad and the Russians have no rr left to move supply, no port near Astrakan to harass the German's flanks and all this area becomes dead play. And just when you got near to it. It makes things very easy for the Germans --- way too easy.

This game has been changed in total. as in theory and in counterbalance of many of the original game ideas which we all thought smart.

routs, trucks, supply distance to hq, with trucks feeding supply to the hq's. all repealed from the original intention. Pockets with the 1 week rule for surrender or free the pocket and assume some supply was getting in all along. Repealed so that now in supply units losing a battle easily surrender and shatter becomes a common occurrence. The game originally assumed orderly retreats by the loser of a battle or mostly then routs.. Units do actually try and retreat back to supply. Gone.

One thing the game has never done is accurately put wear and tear on the German motorized units. Their trucks and tanks etc should be wearing out based on a how far the unit has moved on the ground cumulative of all turns. Tyronec's movement of mech units in mud spring 42 should be a total ruination of the truck pool of those units. but it did not and it wont and now trucks don't even matter. so why even bring up the point!!!!

Vent over

thanks for listening

Brian


Post #: 1
more vent - 6/18/2020 3:24:42 AM   
BrianG

 

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on going action. another battle and 2 panzer divisions activate in reserve.

So game has totally change reserve commitment so that panzer divisions most easily activate when game originally recognized that smaller units are the ones that usually are sent in as reserve in battles such as broken down divisions. ie battalions and regiments first. Divisions last and much harder. NO more

Plus since only the Germans get good mp's, they now have a total game play advantage on what should be equal to both.

Vent # 2 over


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RE: more vent - 6/18/2020 4:44:36 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BrianG

on going action. another battle and 2 panzer divisions activate in reserve.

So game has totally change reserve commitment so that panzer divisions most easily activate when game originally recognized that smaller units are the ones that usually are sent in as reserve in battles such as broken down divisions. ie battalions and regiments first. Divisions last and much harder. NO more

Plus since only the Germans get good mp's, they now have a total game play advantage on what should be equal to both.

Vent # 2 over




Sorry but reserve activation by German divsions has always been there, in quantity for a very long time. You have to know how to set up prperly. Which I think Tyronec knows how to do. I can do the same for the Soviets in 11.3 with multiple Corps. So I am not buying the reserve activation vent. Others points though have merit.

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RE: more vent - 6/18/2020 4:49:34 AM   
eskuche

 

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Soviet resources will need to be very carefully managed from early turns. Paradoxically it might be a good idea to push reserved rail up to take bad rail% and bad supply for summer 1941 to maintain a supply store buffer while HI builds back up. 100 AP will need to be some time before 1943 to take down fort building. Vehicle factories can possibly be discarded, and large arms factories in major cities can be shifted vertically every 20 turns to control production.

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RE: more vent - 6/18/2020 7:07:25 AM   
tyronec


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quote:

So Tyronec, gets himself in deep and has many tanks sit for one turn as he tries to reestablish the north pocket. So what happens, Russians attack to get to pocket and in 4 different battles, 4 full panzer divisions activate in reserve to stop all these key battles. These units did not move the clean up turn but at least 2 had very long supply lines the prior turn. Yet no issues for the Germans. The Russians cant even get mp's of 20 after moving a tank corp for a turn. And if they sit a turn, then half the time they actually drop in mp the next turn. I've discussed this in another vent thread.

I can't comment on the Soviet supply and MP issues, however I think it is reasonable that those reserve activations worked, some of the units that were partially cut off the previous turn had been well stocked with fuel from the turn before. The ones that were short of fuel had to rest.

quote:

Oh and then i finally get a retreat and what does the German unit do, he retreats over a river when a clear non river hex was just behind. and it was closer to supply. so much for point calculations.

Definitely an issue and one that I have been struggling with too.

quote:

One thing the game has never done is accurately put wear and tear on the German motorized units. Their trucks and tanks etc should be wearing out based on a how far the unit has moved on the ground cumulative of all turns. Tyronec's movement of mech units in mud spring 42 should be a total ruination of the truck pool of those units. but it did not and it wont and now trucks don't even matter. so why even bring up the point!!!!

As Brian writes I have had no truck issues at all. My Panzer force got seriously trashed by over use during the winter which was a mistake on my part but the impact has been restricted to reduced morale and a tank shortage for the summer offensive.

My issue with game balance would be the air war. The VVS were dominant by the end of '41 and have control over most of the battlefield in '42. Axis can get some ground bombing in but GS can only rarely be used. Maybe I have misplayed the Luftwaffe...
From what I can see of how things are working it comes down to the number of fighters available, and the Soviets have many times more. Fatigue levels build up equally for both sides, so say you have for example 100 Axis facing off against 300 Soviet fighters. You have a few air combats with odds of 2:1 in favor of the Soviets - that gives a slight combat advantage to Axis. Both sides build up fatigue until say for example the 100 Axis fighters and 200 Soviet fighters are all heavily fatigued. Then the Soviets go in for a few more attacks and boom, the Axis fighters are dropping out of the skies. Then by the end of the turn you have an even loss ratio and after a while it is goodbye Luftwaffe.
The only counter for Axis is to limit their engagement, keeping air bases in a huddle protected by fighters set to low range, and allow the Soviets to freely bomb the ground units and do GS to their maximum capacity.



< Message edited by tyronec -- 6/18/2020 7:17:04 AM >

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Baku - 6/18/2020 11:00:36 AM   
BrianG

 

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It really stinks to lose Baku.

1 its embarrassing
2 It looks bad on ones military record

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Post #: 6
RE: Baku - 6/18/2020 2:05:12 PM   
joelmar


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quote:


ORIGINAL: BrianG

It really stinks to lose Baku.

1 its embarrassing
2 It looks bad on ones military record


Sorry to say that Brian, but loosing Baku was your own doing.

-Why so many units in west Caucasus for so long, what are you trying to achieve at Sukhumi?
-Why defend the passes from the north with standard infantry that can't easily retreat through mountains? Didn't you see that there was a pz army going to bypass those guys and trap them there?
-Why didn't you prepare any fortifications in the bottlneck along the coast from Terek river down south of Makha?

For 1.12, it was announced as a major overhaul, and it was stressed that supply in particular was very different. From what I understand, you didn't even read the patch notes. What do you expect?

Last, here is for reserve activation. We've had quite a few of those since Shalkai is the Soviet center commander in 2x3+ team game. Very frustrating, I know. But it works both ways, so use it to your own advantage, by example, that is how you might use your tanks corps instead of trying premature and dangerous counterattacks with a Red Army below 5 million men with supply difficulties.






Attachment (1)

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RE: Baku - 6/18/2020 4:57:46 PM   
BrianG

 

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I lost baku b/c

1 Although I had a fort line built (started in 1941), i had just doubled up one fort hex with 2 Guards corp to try and get one of the forts the hexes to level 4 (it was close), and the other fort was weakly held. The gap was abused the next turn that I did this petty overkill.

2. My forces in the far left were actually going to escape back to baku area but;

That was the turn i discussed getting very low supplies, and with everyone's suggestion, I lowered the rail reserve to 0% using 25 ap. That dropped my troops train level from 32000 to 5000, and all my plans of escape went kaput. I really would have had a chance but this really did me in.

3 and Tyronec

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Post #: 8
RE: Baku - 6/18/2020 5:30:11 PM   
joelmar


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quote:


BrianG
That was the turn i discussed getting very low supplies, and with everyone's suggestion, I lowered the rail reserve to 0% using 25 ap. That dropped my troops train level from 32000 to 5000, and all my plans of escape went kaput. I really would have had a chance but this really did me in.


Ok thanks, that explains a lot of things. Bad decision knowing you needed rail cap. Honestly, I looked a bit like a fool because I kept thinking that you would bring back those Sukhumi guys and it never happened, lol! Truth is even with such shortcomings, you managed to put up some resistance, imagine with proper troop placement. I know you had some forts, but not enough and not deep enough.

As a matter of personnal opinion, I think any Soviet Caucasus defense should start by heavily fortifying the Terek-Makha-Baku corridor (and even Grozny should be included if possible as a strong outpost) many lines deep, and keeping a large garrison there to build and build before the Germans get to Grozny. Denying that area to the Germans is the key to any Georgian defense as you have seen. Then, put every mountain unit available in the Alagir passes to Tibilissi, with their HQs in the Tbilissi valley, those guys can defend and get supplies much better over mountains, same as the Germans which you also have noticed. That is the second key place to defend. I know you tried, but from the north side of the mountains and with standard infantry, and that ended up in a big pocket and many units lost. Those guys needed to be down the Makha corridor building instead of being trapped there. Third Sukhumi with what's left, and it should only be an annoying rear guard forcing the Germans to divert forces to deal with them, then evacuate by sea to Batumi before the Germans reach the valleys and cut the rails. Without rails going in the valley through Sukhumi, the Germans can't do much from there because of very low supplies, no support units and no replacements. That way, Baku and Tbilissi are very hard to take.

Of course, Tyronec is also very good, if there's a hole, he will make the best out of it, as we have just witnessed... agreed 100% :-)



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RE: Baku - 6/18/2020 11:13:10 PM   
56ajax


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BrianG

It really stinks to lose Baku.

1 its embarrassing
2 It looks bad on ones military record


I know a chap (he knows who he is) who had lost Leningrad and Moscow by T12? There is always someone much worse off than you....

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Molotov : This we did not deserve.

Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.

C'est la guerre aérienne

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RE: Baku - 6/18/2020 11:32:03 PM   
joelmar


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quote:


@56ajax


You're definitely the great philosopher of the WitE community and I must bow to your wisdom! The beauty of WitE is that it is a game, nobody dies, and one day's defeat can be used to prepare next day's victory.

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RE: Baku - 6/19/2020 12:42:08 AM   
56ajax


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@joelmar

Philosopher eh, how kind. I have been called many things over the years but I can assure you, not that.

_____________________________

Molotov : This we did not deserve.

Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.

C'est la guerre aérienne

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RE: Baku - 6/19/2020 1:31:44 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax


quote:

ORIGINAL: BrianG

It really stinks to lose Baku.

1 its embarrassing
2 It looks bad on ones military record


I know a chap (he knows who he is) who had lost Leningrad and Moscow by T12? There is always someone much worse off than you....


I have seen Leningrad turn 4 and Moscow turn 7. So 56Ajax your friend is doing "WUNDERBAR" ;-)

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 6/19/2020 1:33:51 AM >

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RE: Baku - 6/19/2020 1:53:46 AM   
joelmar


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quote:


ORIGINAL: 56ajax
Philosopher eh, how kind. I have been called many things over the years but I can assure you, not that.


My pleasure. Proof that anything can happen!... ;-)

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RE: Baku - 6/21/2020 1:12:39 AM   
M60A3TTS


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Will someone kindly point me to the last AAR where the Soviets took Berlin by May 1945?

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RE: Baku - 6/21/2020 1:27:19 AM   
eskuche

 

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https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4340491

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RE: Baku - 6/21/2020 1:36:21 AM   
M60A3TTS


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Thanks eskuche, I was hoping for a full AAR here rather than a set of videos. I have no idea who Mike29 is and since beekeeper didn't win until June 45 the question still stands.

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RE: Baku - 6/21/2020 1:40:05 AM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Will someone kindly point me to the last AAR where the Soviets took Berlin by May 1945?


Wixit versus GoodByeBlueSky - very well written massively long AAR of the whole campaign v1.11

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/call-of-the-motherland-wixits-war-in-the-east.1076877/

Leningrad and Moscow conquered in 1941, Berlin conquered 1944. By all the criteria given here the Soviets player should have given up in 1941.

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RE: Baku - 6/21/2020 1:48:26 AM   
M60A3TTS


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lol. You know how long it's been since I logged into Paradox? A loooong time. I'll have a look. Thanks.


Oh boy, the Axis player didn't even close the Lvov pocket on the first turn. Very little appears to be pocketed in the area of NW Front. I sure hope it gets interesting quick.



------------------------

I'm sorry, I can't take this one seriously. The Soviet player puts virtually nothing at the land bridge to defend with. These are two folks not particularly skilled. But I appreciate the effort.

< Message edited by M60A3TTS -- 6/21/2020 2:03:53 AM >

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RE: Baku - 6/21/2020 3:31:36 AM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
I'm sorry, I can't take this one seriously. The Soviet player puts virtually nothing at the land bridge to defend with. These are two folks not particularly skilled. But I appreciate the effort.


For what it is worth I think by 1944 you would see them both as great players. So there is a historical arc of the soviet player going from being new to the game to being great at the end.

They lost Leningrad and Moscow in 1941, learnt the game thoroughly to play the long game. And on that basis Berlin fell in 1944.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 6/21/2020 3:32:41 AM >


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RE: Baku - 6/27/2020 10:14:17 PM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax

I know a chap (he knows who he is) who had lost Leningrad and Moscow by T12? There is always someone much worse off than you....


If he lasted to T12, he obviously wasn't playing MichaelT or HLYA


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RE: Baku - 6/27/2020 10:31:20 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower


quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax

I know a chap (he knows who he is) who had lost Leningrad and Moscow by T12? There is always someone much worse off than you....


If he lasted to T12, he obviously wasn't playing MichaelT or HLYA



There is a claim to exactly that.

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