Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Japanese Night Fighters

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> The War Room >> Japanese Night Fighters Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Japanese Night Fighters - 6/17/2020 12:33:55 AM   
DesertWolf101

 

Posts: 1321
Joined: 11/26/2016
Status: offline
I have seen snippets of very interesting discussion in various threads on Japanese night fighter production, but as I am in the beginning of my first campaign as the Japanese, I would like to ask for the latest advice on the issue. I am playing Scenario 1 with PDU On.

This is my plan thus far - could you please let me know if there are serious flaws in it or suggest a better path?

IJNAF: Irving J1N1-Sa (first going through the J1N1-S to speed up research) then the C6N1-S Myrt for the end game.

IJAAF: Dinah Ki-46-III KAI then the Randy Ki-102c for the end game.

For the IJNAF, i'm thinking the Myrt over the Denko as the Denko seems to have good firepower but has high maintenance and comes pretty late. I am second guessing myself however and wondering if I should concentrate on the Frances instead?

For the IJAAF, I am concerned by the lack of armor on the Dinah - is that reason enough to go for the Nick instead? Is the Peggy worth thinking about?

Finally, any reason to contemplate the Zero and Judy versions?

I very much appreciate thoughts and advice on the issue, especially from the veterans who have experienced the late game. Thanks!
Post #: 1
RE: Japanese Night Fighters - 6/17/2020 12:48:47 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 12735
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
The later Zeros and Judys can come relatively quicker than other aircraft of the same normal time frame.

Later Zeros do have armour and the last one can come in at such a time when your carrier fighters are hurting compared to the Hellcat.

The later Judy can carry a 500kg or a 800 kg bomb. The later Judys also don't need a unique engine. The Val at the beginning of the game already needs replacing.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to DesertWolf101)
Post #: 2
RE: Japanese Night Fighters - 6/17/2020 1:01:33 AM   
DesertWolf101

 

Posts: 1321
Joined: 11/26/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The later Zeros and Judys can come relatively quicker than other aircraft of the same normal time frame.

Later Zeros do have armour and the last one can come in at such a time when your carrier fighters are hurting compared to the Hellcat.

The later Judy can carry a 500kg or a 800 kg bomb. The later Judys also don't need a unique engine. The Val at the beginning of the game already needs replacing.


I should have been more specific - by the Zero and the Judy I was referring to the night fighter versions, the A6M5D-S Zero and the D4Y2-S Judy.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 3
RE: Japanese Night Fighters - 6/17/2020 1:24:49 AM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline
You want a night fighter that is faster than the B-29s; otherwise they will have only one shooting pass, then you will see message "can't catch the bomber"

I don't remember which ones were faster, I know the earliest available, Irving, is slow, but because it is the only night fighter avail in 43, you have to use it

in 44 there are several models, but do not go for those that are slower than the B-29


EDIT: looking at my game's tracker:

Army: KAI Dinah (10.44), then maybe Randy in 45
Navy: Irving (43), then Judy (44), then maybe Myrt in 45

< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 6/17/2020 1:32:25 AM >


_____________________________


(in reply to DesertWolf101)
Post #: 4
RE: Japanese Night Fighters - 6/17/2020 5:29:41 AM   
DesertWolf101

 

Posts: 1321
Joined: 11/26/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

You want a night fighter that is faster than the B-29s; otherwise they will have only one shooting pass, then you will see message "can't catch the bomber"

I don't remember which ones were faster, I know the earliest available, Irving, is slow, but because it is the only night fighter avail in 43, you have to use it

in 44 there are several models, but do not go for those that are slower than the B-29


EDIT: looking at my game's tracker:

Army: KAI Dinah (10.44), then maybe Randy in 45
Navy: Irving (43), then Judy (44), then maybe Myrt in 45


It makes sense that speed is a key variable to prioritize. Prioritizing speed does cut down quite a bit on the attractive night fighter options to pursue.

(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)
Post #: 5
RE: Japanese Night Fighters - 6/17/2020 8:30:50 AM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3266
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101

I have seen snippets of very interesting discussion in various threads on Japanese night fighter production, but as I am in the beginning of my first campaign as the Japanese, I would like to ask for the latest advice on the issue. I am playing Scenario 1 with PDU On.

This is my plan thus far - could you please let me know if there are serious flaws in it or suggest a better path?

IJNAF: Irving J1N1-Sa (first going through the J1N1-S to speed up research) then the C6N1-S Myrt for the end game.

IJAAF: Dinah Ki-46-III KAI then the Randy Ki-102c for the end game.

For the IJNAF, i'm thinking the Myrt over the Denko as the Denko seems to have good firepower but has high maintenance and comes pretty late. I am second guessing myself however and wondering if I should concentrate on the Frances instead?

For the IJAAF, I am concerned by the lack of armor on the Dinah - is that reason enough to go for the Nick instead? Is the Peggy worth thinking about?

Finally, any reason to contemplate the Zero and Judy versions?

I very much appreciate thoughts and advice on the issue, especially from the veterans who have experienced the late game. Thanks!


Pretty much all the options for IJ night fighters are bad, to be frank.

My main reflection is that with night fighters, the goal isn't to generate kills directly. It's more to generate disruption to the air raids (and limit damage to your units) and inflict airframe damage on Allied bombers (to cause OPS loses and excessive repair time for Allied 4E squadrons).

That changes the valuable attributes for your night fighter aircraft in some areas compared to normal daytime air combat. There's a greater element of quantity over quality.

The dynamics of night air combat are such that the attacking bombers tend to be broken up over several smaller strikes, so there is great value on a strong and durable Japanese night CAP - that's a challenge given how punishing defensive fire from 4E's can be on fairly fragile (and mostly unarmoured) night fighters).

With the IJN, going the J1N1-Sa is the right move. It comes fairly early, and has radar. They will die to droves to defensive fire from 4E's, so plan accordingly with fairly deep pools. I recall using the Judy and possibly the Zero NF as well - I was not hugely impressed with either. My go-to IJN transition would probably be the Frances - armour, durable, radar and a pair of fairly decent guns. Too slow to catch B-29s, but at least likely to hang around through 20 penny packet raids.

For the IJA, it's a similar story. The Nick gets a place on the roster by virtue of arriving early and enabling you to build a big stockpile. The Dinah died in droves for me thanks to the poor durability and lack of armour. Best bet for a transition is to work on bringing the Randy forward and accepting that you'll need to live without the radar till 10/45.

I'd write off the Peggy thanks to the woeful accuracy on the 75mm cannon.

Worth considering bolstering night fighters with regular fighter squadrons on night CAP, just for the quantity aspect.




(in reply to DesertWolf101)
Post #: 6
RE: Japanese Night Fighters - 6/17/2020 9:36:01 AM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4319
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
Pretty much all the options for IJ night fighters are bad, to be frank.


Exactly.

Here is a table I have made for myself to visualise the choices, data is from an early DBB version so probably different from stock.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________


(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 7
RE: Japanese Night Fighters - 6/17/2020 12:11:29 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline
Has anyone checked if the gun placements makes any difference? in real life, the best night fighters would have either a movable upper turret (like the black widow) or upwards guns (Schräge Musik-style)





_____________________________


(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 8
RE: Japanese Night Fighters - 6/17/2020 3:50:39 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3266
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

Has anyone checked if the gun placements makes any difference? in real life, the best night fighters would have either a movable upper turret (like the black widow) or upwards guns (Schräge Musik-style)






Devs have confirmed that mountings do make a difference, in the context of wing vs centreline mounted guns.

No other comments as far as I am aware.

Pointless to test as it will make so little practical difference in-game.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1994152&mpage=1&key=info%2Cquestion�

(in reply to DesertWolf101)
Post #: 9
RE: Japanese Night Fighters - 6/17/2020 5:00:27 PM   
DesertWolf101

 

Posts: 1321
Joined: 11/26/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101

I have seen snippets of very interesting discussion in various threads on Japanese night fighter production, but as I am in the beginning of my first campaign as the Japanese, I would like to ask for the latest advice on the issue. I am playing Scenario 1 with PDU On.

This is my plan thus far - could you please let me know if there are serious flaws in it or suggest a better path?

IJNAF: Irving J1N1-Sa (first going through the J1N1-S to speed up research) then the C6N1-S Myrt for the end game.

IJAAF: Dinah Ki-46-III KAI then the Randy Ki-102c for the end game.

For the IJNAF, i'm thinking the Myrt over the Denko as the Denko seems to have good firepower but has high maintenance and comes pretty late. I am second guessing myself however and wondering if I should concentrate on the Frances instead?

For the IJAAF, I am concerned by the lack of armor on the Dinah - is that reason enough to go for the Nick instead? Is the Peggy worth thinking about?

Finally, any reason to contemplate the Zero and Judy versions?

I very much appreciate thoughts and advice on the issue, especially from the veterans who have experienced the late game. Thanks!


Pretty much all the options for IJ night fighters are bad, to be frank.

My main reflection is that with night fighters, the goal isn't to generate kills directly. It's more to generate disruption to the air raids (and limit damage to your units) and inflict airframe damage on Allied bombers (to cause OPS loses and excessive repair time for Allied 4E squadrons).

That changes the valuable attributes for your night fighter aircraft in some areas compared to normal daytime air combat. There's a greater element of quantity over quality.

The dynamics of night air combat are such that the attacking bombers tend to be broken up over several smaller strikes, so there is great value on a strong and durable Japanese night CAP - that's a challenge given how punishing defensive fire from 4E's can be on fairly fragile (and mostly unarmoured) night fighters).

With the IJN, going the J1N1-Sa is the right move. It comes fairly early, and has radar. They will die to droves to defensive fire from 4E's, so plan accordingly with fairly deep pools. I recall using the Judy and possibly the Zero NF as well - I was not hugely impressed with either. My go-to IJN transition would probably be the Frances - armour, durable, radar and a pair of fairly decent guns. Too slow to catch B-29s, but at least likely to hang around through 20 penny packet raids.

For the IJA, it's a similar story. The Nick gets a place on the roster by virtue of arriving early and enabling you to build a big stockpile. The Dinah died in droves for me thanks to the poor durability and lack of armour. Best bet for a transition is to work on bringing the Randy forward and accepting that you'll need to live without the radar till 10/45.

I'd write off the Peggy thanks to the woeful accuracy on the 75mm cannon.

Worth considering bolstering night fighters with regular fighter squadrons on night CAP, just for the quantity aspect.







Excellent food for thought - thank you!

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 10
RE: Japanese Night Fighters - 6/17/2020 6:12:20 PM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3169
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline
Radar is all important in getting interceptions, which knock the bombers' aim off whether they hit or not.

Checking device availability dates (in stock scen 1) H-6 is 6-44. N-6 is 10-44. The FM and FD models become available in June & October 1945.

Radars are carried as a weapon device, so there is not a lot of room for acceleration in terms of getting them airborne.

I suspect though, that if you have production of say the J1N1-Sa Irving accelerated, and some groups training on 440601, they will all pick up H-6 radars in weapon slot #3 instantia.

I say suspect, because I have not paid attention to this, and experienced Japanese players may know more.

_____________________________

"You may find that having is not so nearly pleasing a thing as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
- Cdr Spock


Ian R

(in reply to DesertWolf101)
Post #: 11
RE: Japanese Night Fighters - 6/17/2020 7:27:40 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 12735
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Radar is all important in getting interceptions, which knock the bombers' aim off whether they hit or not.

Checking device availability dates (in stock scen 1) H-6 is 6-44. N-6 is 10-44. The FM and FD models become available in June & October 1945.

Radars are carried as a weapon device, so there is not a lot of room for acceleration in terms of getting them airborne.

I suspect though, that if you have production of say the J1N1-Sa Irving accelerated, and some groups training on 440601, they will all pick up H-6 radars in weapon slot #3 instantia.

I say suspect, because I have not paid attention to this, and experienced Japanese players may know more.


Pilot and crew: "What is that empty space in the plane for?"

Maintenance chief "That is for the radar set!"

Pilot and crew: "What radar set? What kind and how does it work?"

Maintenance chief: "I don't know, it has not been invented yet."

Pilot and crew: "Then why have that hole for it? Oh wait, we know - we will use it as our airborne loo . . . "

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Ian R)
Post #: 12
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> The War Room >> Japanese Night Fighters Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.250