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When to build 2nd SHQ - 6/17/2020 12:23:11 AM   
Justus2


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Ive seen a couple mentions about trying to avoid building a 2nd SHQ, but when is a good idea of when you would need one, and where? I am almost 100 turns in, I have 5 core zones that are all connected by rail that seem pretty easy to maintain, but due to conquests I know have three new zones far to the south-east, and in an extensive mountain area, so no easy way to connect by rail (Liberty, Nassau, and Omicron). Is it worth building a 2nd SHQ in Liberty to create a new network, even though they won't be connected by rail? I do have sealed roads in stretches in that area. Will the new SHQ create new 'item pools' for collecting everything produced in those zones?

Would I be better off to build a 2nd SHQ in Basalt (where I'm still rail-connected) and then assign those zones to Basalt's SHQ?

Similar situation in Carbon (SW of my map), due to the mountains there's only a road connection to Vince. I am fighting to the west of there, as I add more zones/cities, should I create a new SHQ to link those western zones, or keep tying them back to Phoenix?

What should I do to prepare before creating the 2nd SHQ? Every city has at least a level 2 Truck station (except Omicron, which I just captured), what else would I need? Will I need enough energy/food/water assets in the 2nd SHQ zone to be self-sufficient? Or will it still transfer some goods between the two SHQs?




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RE: When to build 2nd SHQ - 6/17/2020 4:58:59 AM   
Zyphtan

 

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I dont know how much help ill be but I do know that all your resources are stored in your SHQ you can see that when you look at your resources. I guess it will add another one for zones attached to it to use putting less of a strain on your logistics network.

It might be a good Idea to add another SHQ but I have seen plenty of people unable to figure out how to get resources to the second one which can cause some serious problems. There is a transfer tab under trade that looks to be able to do it but I havn't needed to use more then 1 SHQ. I do know that rails are great for logistics from one point to another and your need a truck station to move them out from there. I just saw a great guide someone wrote which I can't like till I get 10 post I guess I dont know if you can check my post history or search for my username.

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RE: When to build 2nd SHQ - 6/17/2020 5:28:52 AM   
Jdane


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I'm interested in seeing what other people are thinking about this. I've yet to make enough progress in a game to come to this point and am wondering about this question too.

I think I can answer some of your questions though, and engage in a little brainstorming.

The 2nd SHQ will spawn with its own inventory (i.e. the "item pools" you were referring to). Transfer between SHQs can only happen if you do it manually, for each resource needed. That's why it's probably generally a good idea only to build a 2nd one in a zone that can at least produce the basic necessities, otherwise you might end up having to manually transfer items often (from the 1st to compensate for the shortages in the 2nd), which would be quite the hassle.

So, where would we build this 2nd SHQ?

My first step would be: have I trouble supplying the troops with only the 1st SHQ and my current logistics? If not, then I wouldn't raise a 2nd one.

Next step would then be: where's the bottleneck and where's the next best self-sufficient zone? I'll need to supply the troops with food, ammo, fuel and replacements. And energy (so used to low tech I forgot about it). If there is such a zone where all this is produced, I would consider raising the 2nd SHQ here. If not, I would need to build up some more Assets to ensure these production requirements are attained.

My thinking is very troop-centric I admit. And I'm looking at the most developed zone in the region because the interaction between a SHQ and the zone it is located in (mainly in my perspective getting all the needed supplies from the zone's inventory into the SHQ's) is basically cost-free logistics wise (see the guide on logistics by zrgssd - sorry if I misspelled the handle - in the War Room sub-forum).

Coming back to the Phoenix Federation. The rather low definition of the picture makes it a little hard to tell but terrain looks indeed rough in the south western and eastern parts. I somehow feel that I would need to look at the Bottlenecks and Used Points map layers to figure out where to raise the 2nd SHQ, and more so how Basalt, Liberty and Nassau compare production wise.

Well that wasn't definitive at all. I'm just getting the ball rolling. Looking forward to see what people will come up with. At any rate, such study cases are great to try and figure things out in my opinion.



< Message edited by Jdane -- 6/17/2020 5:36:40 AM >

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RE: When to build 2nd SHQ - 6/17/2020 5:54:43 AM   
Zyphtan

 

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You would need to transfer all the units to the second SHQ too if you wanted them to be supplied by it. Jdane makes a point it would probably be a pain to have to transfer so much if it isn't being produced locally.

A second SHQ would basically split your empire in half. I did hear that it could be economical to do so though as resources wouldnt have to travel so far and or be sent so far. I have seen many people on the forum swear by only using one SHQ. Might want to weight the benefits and cost you could always change stuff back to the first SHQ I did see someone mention pp cost and from what I have seen it is the initial 20pp cost I see. I was searching though post earlier about SHQs and it looks like alot of people seem to think that there is a big cost associated with having a second one. It is a part of the game and from what I have seen on the forum and in the Manual it can help with some of the strain on your logistics network. You probably want to make sure you got a mostly self sufficient SHQ as you will need everything if you want to build and supply soldiers in the area.

I have been having fun playing the early game and playing on different worlds and havn't needed to more then one. If I get lucky and get some good assets like merc camps or those fantastic clone artifacts, Ill try using one. I have been having trouble getting a surplus of manpower to deal to really want a second one.

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RE: When to build 2nd SHQ - 6/17/2020 7:51:23 AM   
EuchreJack

 

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I had one world where I considered a 2nd SHQ: There was a massive mountain range dividing the map in two. I'm still trying to wrap my head around what is possible with a 2nd SHQ in that scenario, but the general idea is that geography has basically split the map in two, so it would make sense to have a second SHQ.

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RE: When to build 2nd SHQ - 6/17/2020 9:30:29 AM   
zgrssd

 

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My advice:
1. Never. It is a giant mess to handle two SHQ's.
2. Maybe if you got seperated pockets of your empire. If you can not trace a (reliable) route to SHQ 1, then another SHQ may be the only way.

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RE: When to build 2nd SHQ - 6/17/2020 9:40:09 AM   
Zyphtan

 

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In my current map it has a mountain but has a road prebuilt so I don't think ill need it but building a road isnt that expensive if it is not a wide mountain but I am getting that feel. I don't think there is a way I can build a rail through it. It would cost something like 15k not always a horrible idea to build around it if you can.

Mountains are pretty annoying cant kill the minor who has units in the mountain don't have enough AP even with my infantry.

From what I gathered with a second SHQ you need to be able to supply it to supply zones or units attached to it. You need everything you would need normally like recruits and ammo and food. If it isn't produced locally you have to use the transfer tab under the trade tab to do it manually and I am guessing it uses the unused points and you probably wont get it until the following turn like most things.

Seems quite useful as long as you don't have to transfer every turn. If you are mindful of it could be very useful. I believe in the manual or something Vic said, another SHQ would cut down on the logistics need in the zone because it would have a shorter distance to travel.

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RE: When to build 2nd SHQ - 6/17/2020 12:02:29 PM   
GodwinW


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3. When you're about to lose SHQ 1: build a second and transfer as much as you can to there before you lose it.

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RE: When to build 2nd SHQ - 6/17/2020 1:41:18 PM   
Vhalor


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A second SHQ should be avoided whenever possible. Honestly, if you truly reach the point where you'd actually need one, you should have already won!

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RE: When to build 2nd SHQ - 6/22/2020 5:03:15 PM   
btonasse

 

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I tried to follow the advice that you should never build a 2nd one, but logistics was being a nightmare in my last game, with way too much strain in my capital trying to provide for every corner of the empire. Troops were constantly badly supplied, far away constructions would take forever... And then I decided to build another SHQ and boom, everything was solved in pretty much one turn. So my advice is: if you have a remote but well-developed part of your empire and you're having logistical issues, go for it!

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RE: When to build 2nd SHQ - 6/22/2020 5:50:04 PM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: btonasse

I tried to follow the advice that you should never build a 2nd one, but logistics was being a nightmare in my last game, with way too much strain in my capital trying to provide for every corner of the empire. Troops were constantly badly supplied, far away constructions would take forever... And then I decided to build another SHQ and boom, everything was solved in pretty much one turn. So my advice is: if you have a remote but well-developed part of your empire and you're having logistical issues, go for it!

If you need a high capacity connection between Operational and Strategic base, Railway is usually the way to go. However there may be some bugs with railheads on the way and the upper 90% passing through.

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RE: When to build 2nd SHQ - 6/22/2020 8:01:51 PM   
W8taminute


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I seem to remember about being warned (by the game itself) not to build more HQs in ATG. There would however come a time where a supreme HQ just couldn't handle moving supplies, unit components, population, etc. by itself no matter how many rail lines you had setup in your empire.

I'm wondering if that could be the case here in SE. btonasse raises an interesting example that may require more experimentation by all of us. We need more real data on what happens with a second SHQ so that real world experience can be connected to the theories presented in the manual.

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RE: When to build 2nd SHQ - 6/23/2020 1:02:23 AM   
Justus2


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I wanted to come back and give an update on my experience with using a 2nd SHQ. I took the plunge a few turns after the situation I posted in the map in the OP. I ended up finally winning the game about 20 turns later, you can see below all the additional zones to the East (and several to the west, eventually wrapping around).
I am out of town, so I don’t have all the earlier saves with me to show the Bottleneck reports, I will try to post them Wednesday. But my logistics was running Red between Phoenix to Cragridge, Yellow down to Basalt and red or black further east. Part of that was also due to having two Mech Brigades and multiple infantry corps fighting on that front.
Once I conquered Charthors (which I think was the capital of one of the other majors), I was able to build rail from Cragridge to there, and build the 2nd SHQ. I did it gradually at first, just connecting Charthors and a couple other zones (Lilincon and Cambridge, then eventually Gault and Lancaster). I initially only assigned some garrison units and a couple border infantry brigades to the SHQ, leaving the heavy mech forces under SHQ1. However, even the fact those zones didn’t have to ship their resources back to SHQ1 and distribute them back out made a big difference in the bottlenecks. My mech/armor bdes were able to get more replacements, even though they were still under SHQ1, because less LIS was tied up moving stuff between zones. Here’s a few lessons I learned from the process.
1. Try to establish the SHQ in a zone (or zones) that is as self-sufficient as possible. If you can generate enough food/metal/rares in that zone, you don’t have to waste LIS transferring stuff back and forth. According to the manual, water, Fuel, Energy, and IP don’t take LIS, and from what I could tell when I transferred from one SHQ to the other they didn’t take any points, just the hassle of remembering to manually transfer them.
2. Trade is your friend!! Once you have 2 SHQ, you can trade from either one (click in the zone for the SHQ you want, and you can buy into/sell from that SHQ’s inventory). This can save LIS if you have lots of metal, for example, and don’t want to tie up LIS in transferring. Sell a bunch from SHQ1, then buy it at SHQ2. You lose money in the transaction, of course, but at that point I had like 50k credits and not much to spend it on. Getting 1000 metal in the new zone was well worth the cost. Also, it’s easier to buy metal and then use Workshop (while still on SHQ2) to create ammo in the new SHQ, vs shipping from the old one.
3. Recruits cost a lot to move, so when you create the new SHQ make sure you start giving recruiting bonuses in the new cities, so you can form your own replacements in SHQ2, much easier than trying to transfer from SHQ1.
4. Remember that each OHQ (and independent unit) must be switched to whichever SHQ you want it to belong to, and that’s where it will draw it’s replacements. I kept my Mech/armor bdes under SHQ1 initially, because I already had some replacements built up and plenty of metal/rares to build more. If the game would have gone on longer I would have swapped them to SHQ2, especially as I started to get mines and scavenge online in the new zones.
5. Take a look at the terrain. In my case, one of the issues is I had solid rail networks to Cragridge and Basalt, but it was extremely mountainous to the south, so it was a patchwork of dirt and sealed roads going to Liberty, Nassau, and Omicron. Once I had the SHQ in Charthors built, and rail connecting all the way east to Lancaster, I was able to build rail south thru Kondel to Omicron through mostly flat terrain, and SE to Deneba. It was much longer distance, but the rail distance penalty is so much lower it was easy to connect those zones back to SHQ2, and take strain off the roads through the mountains to Liberty and Nassau.





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RE: When to build 2nd SHQ - 6/23/2020 3:28:47 AM   
JDBSM

 

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I've also just looked at SHQs.

UPKEEP:

S-2 costs 20PP and 2PP / turn
S-3 costs 30PP and 3PP / turn
S-4 costs 40PP and 4PP / turn

So, 4 SHQs have an upkeep of 9PP / turn.


CONSIDERATIONS:

We need to manually set a zone's SHQ using the "Zone SHQ" button.

Moving stuff between SHQs requires a logistical connection and expends Logistical Points based on item weight. Water, energy, fuel and IP have a weight of 0 and can be moved for free.

Assets in zones attached to an SHQ will expect to receive resources from that SHQ -- duh!

Max Storage is based on the population of all the zones attached to an SHQ. When we create a second SHQ and attach zones to it, we reduce the Max Storage of our first SHQ and risk losing / auto-selling resources next turn.


SHQ MAX STORAGE FORMULA:

Max Storage for an SHQ with a single zone = end_of_turn_zone_pop / 100 * 3 + 250 - zone_stock

For SHQs with multiple zones apply the formula to each zone and tot it up!

< Message edited by JDBSM -- 6/23/2020 3:39:30 AM >

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RE: When to build 2nd SHQ - 6/23/2020 4:30:43 AM   
diamondspider

 

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quote:

Never. It is a giant mess to handle two SHQ's.


++

That said, I may play the biggest planet at some point just to learn how to manage it. But on a normal planet you can easily win never dealing with the huge problems that occur when you do it.

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RE: When to build 2nd SHQ - 6/23/2020 5:23:45 AM   
ramnblam

 

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I think the only time you could really justify it is if you conquer a big major with multiple cities that you can effectively turn into a second SHQ without any glaring supply problems. The whole reason being that resources being produced in these zones and being sent back to the 1SHQ and then from the 1SHQ to the units on that front is a big strain on your logistics network. And even then it's probably only worthwhile if you're going to fight another big war on that front.

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RE: When to build 2nd SHQ - 6/23/2020 6:34:48 AM   
Tomn

 

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It might be less of a strain if there was a sub-SHQ formation of some kind, a local collection and distribution point. Like, you have a network of zones in a distant area send their supplies to the sub-SHQ, which redistributes to the zones and units in the zones as needed, and then sends the surplus to the SHQ while requesting necessary supplies from it. Would allow for a finer-grained and more logical supply network rather than either having everything centralized in one gigantic network or else splitting into the Western and Eastern Roman Empire. On the other hand it'd probably increase turn processing times which are already pretty long.

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RE: When to build 2nd SHQ - 6/23/2020 7:16:12 AM   
diamondspider

 

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Grigsby's stuff mostly uses the OHQs for this and it works quite well.

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RE: When to build 2nd SHQ - 6/23/2020 8:10:10 AM   
basilstaghare

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

My advice:
1. Never. It is a giant mess to handle two SHQ's.
2. Maybe if you got seperated pockets of your empire. If you can not trace a (reliable) route to SHQ 1, then another SHQ may be the only way.


This. Im 125 turns into a huge Siwi game with 10+ zones. I control about 60% of the map. I have built rail to all the larger cities and have managed with one SHQ. I did try a second SHQ at one point but it was a disaster that ruined the game. Went back to a previous save and avoided the second one and just made do the one.

Edit: Typo

< Message edited by basilstaghare -- 6/23/2020 8:14:31 AM >

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RE: When to build 2nd SHQ - 6/23/2020 10:49:05 AM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn

It might be less of a strain if there was a sub-SHQ formation of some kind, a local collection and distribution point. Like, you have a network of zones in a distant area send their supplies to the sub-SHQ, which redistributes to the zones and units in the zones as needed, and then sends the surplus to the SHQ while requesting necessary supplies from it. Would allow for a finer-grained and more logical supply network rather than either having everything centralized in one gigantic network or else splitting into the Western and Eastern Roman Empire. On the other hand it'd probably increase turn processing times which are already pretty long.

That is a Rail Connection with a Truckstop at the end.

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RE: When to build 2nd SHQ - 6/23/2020 1:01:04 PM   
W8taminute


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Excellent work Justus2 and thank you for sharing your results. The two take-aways I gather from your experience is:

1. The zone where the 2nd SHQ is located should be self sufficient in material needs and LIS points.
2. One SHQ is eventually going to be overburdened by supplying it's territorial needs to the point where there will be few LIS points left to get replacements and supplies to the units on the front line. A second SHQ alleviates this stress.

You have obviously succeeded in understanding the logistics system enough to be able to implement a second SHQ. The rest of us need to get comfortable with logistics before attempting to build a second SHQ.

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RE: When to build 2nd SHQ - 6/23/2020 2:16:53 PM   
Tomn

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn

It might be less of a strain if there was a sub-SHQ formation of some kind, a local collection and distribution point. Like, you have a network of zones in a distant area send their supplies to the sub-SHQ, which redistributes to the zones and units in the zones as needed, and then sends the surplus to the SHQ while requesting necessary supplies from it. Would allow for a finer-grained and more logical supply network rather than either having everything centralized in one gigantic network or else splitting into the Western and Eastern Roman Empire. On the other hand it'd probably increase turn processing times which are already pretty long.

That is a Rail Connection with a Truckstop at the end.


No it isn't? Unless I'm badly misunderstanding something but my understanding is that regardless of whether you use rail or trucks all zone production flows back to the SHQ and then flows back out again. I'm talking about having a local distribution unit where nearby zones can transfer to the subunit instead of the SHQ and then have the subunit redistribute local needs and surpluses before needing to send everything back to the SHQ.

I.E. Currently if Zone A produces food but needs rare earths, and if Zone B is right next to it and produces rare earths while needing food, and both zones need metals but are separated from the capital by Zone C, then what happens is that Zones A and B both send their food and rare earths up the line to the capital and then have the food and rare earths come back down the line again to A and B along with a supply of metal, badly stressing the supply lines along Zone C.

I'm suggesting that you create a local distribution subunit that you place in, say, Zone A so that Zone A sends its food to it, and then Zone B sends its rare earths to it, and then the subunit sends out the food to Zone B and the rare earths to Zone A and then passes the surplus on to the SHQ while pulling metals back to send to Zone A and B, thus reducing the strain on the logistics line in Zone C.

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RE: When to build 2nd SHQ - 6/23/2020 2:36:03 PM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn

It might be less of a strain if there was a sub-SHQ formation of some kind, a local collection and distribution point. Like, you have a network of zones in a distant area send their supplies to the sub-SHQ, which redistributes to the zones and units in the zones as needed, and then sends the surplus to the SHQ while requesting necessary supplies from it. Would allow for a finer-grained and more logical supply network rather than either having everything centralized in one gigantic network or else splitting into the Western and Eastern Roman Empire. On the other hand it'd probably increase turn processing times which are already pretty long.

That is a Rail Connection with a Truckstop at the end.


No it isn't? Unless I'm badly misunderstanding something but my understanding is that regardless of whether you use rail or trucks all zone production flows back to the SHQ and then flows back out again.


If a train line to the SHQ does not allow you to act as if the SHQ was right under you, something is really wrong with your train line!

That is the point of trains:
Connecting cities that are really far away to the SHQ, with a high bandwidth connetion. Until there is no functional difference between that city and the one with the physical SHQ in it.

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RE: When to build 2nd SHQ - 6/23/2020 2:59:09 PM   
Tomn

 

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Although "over-engineer your logistical line" is certainly a solution, you can't deny that it's a bit odd and wasteful for two zones right next to each other to send their supplies all the way across the planet and then back towards them again, sucking up logistics capacity both ways and multiplied by however many zones run along the way doing the same thing, plus possible combat supply needs at the end of the line. Sure, you COULD build a million train stations and upgrade them as heavily as possible if you have the resources, population and time for it, you wouldn't need to in the first place if there were more actual local distribution going on. Thus the success some folks in this thread have had in relieving stressed logistical lines by setting up a second SHQ.

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RE: When to build 2nd SHQ - 6/23/2020 5:27:32 PM   
Justus2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn

It might be less of a strain if there was a sub-SHQ formation of some kind, a local collection and distribution point. Like, you have a network of zones in a distant area send their supplies to the sub-SHQ, which redistributes to the zones and units in the zones as needed, and then sends the surplus to the SHQ while requesting necessary supplies from it. Would allow for a finer-grained and more logical supply network rather than either having everything centralized in one gigantic network or else splitting into the Western and Eastern Roman Empire. On the other hand it'd probably increase turn processing times which are already pretty long.

That is a Rail Connection with a Truckstop at the end.


No it isn't? Unless I'm badly misunderstanding something but my understanding is that regardless of whether you use rail or trucks all zone production flows back to the SHQ and then flows back out again. I'm talking about having a local distribution unit where nearby zones can transfer to the subunit instead of the SHQ and then have the subunit redistribute local needs and surpluses before needing to send everything back to the SHQ.

I.E. Currently if Zone A produces food but needs rare earths, and if Zone B is right next to it and produces rare earths while needing food, and both zones need metals but are separated from the capital by Zone C, then what happens is that Zones A and B both send their food and rare earths up the line to the capital and then have the food and rare earths come back down the line again to A and B along with a supply of metal, badly stressing the supply lines along Zone C.

I'm suggesting that you create a local distribution subunit that you place in, say, Zone A so that Zone A sends its food to it, and then Zone B sends its rare earths to it, and then the subunit sends out the food to Zone B and the rare earths to Zone A and then passes the surplus on to the SHQ while pulling metals back to send to Zone A and B, thus reducing the strain on the logistics line in Zone C.


So I think the 2nd SHQ can give you the result you are looking for, with minimal interference to the rest of your logistics system. You can tailor the 2nd SHQ to which zones, and which units, report to it. If you just want something to relieve the strain of resources going to and from the capital zone, you can set a number of connected zones to the 2nd SHQ, where they can collect and distribute resources to one another, and assign very few (if any) units to it. Then the 1st SHQ's rail/road bandwidth can focus on supporting the units in the field.

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RE: When to build 2nd SHQ - 6/24/2020 5:35:04 AM   
Zyphtan

 

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I havn't needed a second SHQ but if I remember correctly either from vic or the manual says something to the effect of adding a second SHQ can relative the stress on your network because resources dont need to travel too and from as far.

I think resources follow the same route that the SHQ displays in it's supply tab, ie. SHQ > Zone then units then Zone > SHQ. I have noticed this from spending to much IP on units and not have enough for buildings but still producing more then enough.

As others have mentioned water, fuel, energy, and IP travel for free. I did some testing mostly with infantry. 100 Recruits take 5 points of LIS that can really add up and if you are like me and have a problem with pop not being enough to really upgrade some buildings like crazy. I usually get to the point where I dont have enough pop to expand buildings well. Never really ran into a problem with LIS once I got the hang of the system increasing truck stations at the cap helps give even points to roads to other cities and then build Rails is a priority to other cities they dont really get a bottle neck if it is upgraded.

In my most recent game I ran into a problem with a large stretch of mountain making it impossible to build rails. Costing something like 21k or more. If I can't find a way to build a rail to it ill be building an SHQ sooner or later when I start expanding past the city on the other side of the mountain range.

From my games and from what I've played and seen it seems like there is a reason to build one if you really cant build rails and more trucks stations.

Taking strain off your logistics network. I see alot of stock in cities sometimes. Doesn't help you I believe I think it is all SHQ > something or back to it. Do cities use local supplies?

(in reply to Justus2)
Post #: 26
RE: When to build 2nd SHQ - 6/24/2020 2:53:54 PM   
JDBSM

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 6/10/2020
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quote:

Do cities use local supplies?


As far as I can tell. When we disband an SHQ, its resources are given to the city. I created a second SHQ, sent some food to it, disbanded it, closed the farms, and sealed the city off using traffic lights. Advancing turns shows the city consuming food from its own stockpile.

< Message edited by JDBSM -- 6/24/2020 2:54:37 PM >

(in reply to Zyphtan)
Post #: 27
RE: When to build 2nd SHQ - 6/24/2020 3:01:01 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 1492
Joined: 6/9/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JDBSM

quote:

Do cities use local supplies?


As far as I can tell. When we disband an SHQ, its resources are given to the city. I created a second SHQ, sent some food to it, disbanded it, closed the farms, and sealed the city off using traffic lights. Advancing turns shows the city consuming food from its own stockpile.

While "Stockpile Capacity" is another thing that travels for free, it still needs a Logistics connection to the SHQ it is transfered to.

Without one, the Zone propably had to keep 100% of it's storage.

(in reply to JDBSM)
Post #: 28
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