Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Let's talk about logistics

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Shadow Empire >> War Room >> Let's talk about logistics Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Let's talk about logistics - 6/16/2020 2:41:22 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 1492
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline
Logistics are kinda a important part of the game. But also a damn complicated one.
Where do I need how much?
How often do I have to place Truck stops?
Should I upgrade the truck stop?
I am still not certain I got it all, but at least I am a pretty long way towards it.

Hard and fast rules:
0. Turn on Map Layers -> "Show Op. Log." (Show Operational Logistics). Hotkey is 6.
This will tell you exactly how far the last selected unit can go, without getting (too severe) supply issues from range. It is not perfect (as it does not account for other units wanting stuff too), but still prett dang good!
1. One Public owned, T1 Truck stop per city!
They cost pittance of fuel, workers and IP.
No city should ever have to rely on logistics comming in from another city or a outside hex. That is just asking for trouble.
And private ones will not cut it once there are any troops around or any decent spread of Buildings.
2. You should upgrade the truck stations if they are either:
a) Under a SHQ. Those are after all the main consumers!
b) share their hex with a Train Station (wich makes them a local collection Hub or Strategic base)
Keep in mind that this will primarily upgrade the Capacity, not the range.
3. Do not add SHQ's. It is really only causing more issues.
4. Roads are a blessing and a curse. Use them sparringly and avoid crossings.
On the one hand, roads expand the range of your Logistics networks from your cities.
On the other hand, crossings fracture and thus drain your supply capacity like nothing else.
5. With traffic signs, never use more then a "95% blocked" one.
You do not loose relevant capacity.
They are way easier to spot then 100% ones.
And once you forgot you put a 100% block there 1-2 times, you really wish you would have allowed those 5% through!

The Roman Way:
If you want to know how a supply System works, just look at the roman one. They pioneered the Systems we are still using to day. The systems that are in use in Shadow Empire. They knew 3 things: Operational base, Strategic bases, Supply Base/Army Depot.
The Operational base is where your supplies are produced. Or more precisely, where the SHQ collects them.
The Strategic Base is the truck station closest to the troops. The one that will actually get the resource to the Troops. This starts off at being the SHQ city (as you got only 1 Zone). But as you conquer stuff, the new Cities will propably become the new Strategic Bases.
The Supply Base/Army depot is not simulated or abstracted away. Do not be confused by a building of that name, it works very differently!

With this view, you only got a few possible Problems:
Problem X: Having enough production/collection or reserves to support the troops at the Operational Base
Problem Y: Getting enough supplies from the Operational to the Strategic Base. (for the Logistics System, you do not need to worry about storage along the way).
Problem Z: Getting enough supplies from the Strategic Base to the troops.

Note that there is no implied order between those Problems! At any time X, Y or Z can be the cause of your supplies issues. Figuring out wich one (or ones) it is, is the first step to fixing it.

Very hard and slow rules:

Hex Assets:
Hex assets (buildings), only need supply points passing through their hex on a road. They do not actually consume any Logistics capacity, they just need the proof that they could be supplied and then asume they are supplied.
Hex Assets will do all Interaction with the Zone Inventory directly. Their consumption is directly drained from the zone inventory. Their production is diretly delivered to it. Again, no supply capacity is used for this step.

The Zone Inventory Limits
Resources in a Zone help nobody but that zone. They can be used to directly "feed" the local consumers: The workers, the running buildings and the constructions. And in many cases it is highly advantageous to have the production of goods distributed across all zones and as close to their consumption as possible. Food particulary should never need to be shipped.

But the Zone inventory will not help other zones, help you raise troops or even feed your soldiers!

SHQ - the prime logistics consumer
The planet is full of zones where there is too much of one good and to little of another good. And none of the Zones would bother feeding the soldiers that are standing literally in the city center.
This is where the SHQ comes in. Every start of turn, the SHQ will do these 4 things:
- Deliver stuff to Zone Inventories, that those Zones requested*
- Deliver stuff to Units that they have requested. Yes, that means you need to have the resource for your units in the SHQ Inventory before you hit end turn.
- Collecting stuff from zones. This will be the stuff it has avalible for next end turn and the rare instant projets (like raising formations)*
- sending out reinforcements troops.
(For the full sequence, see 5.11.5.11)

Note tha the SHQ seems to need 0 Logistics capaciy do do stuff with the Inventory of the Zone it is placed in. Also 0 Logistics to do stuff with the Hex it is placed in.

*These two should be kept as small as possible. Logistics is primarily there for your soldiers. Moved goods between the Zones and the SHQ should be only things that can not (yet) be prouced locally.

Free Shipping included
According to the handbook, several things travel for free on the Logistics network. These include:
Water & Fuel (via Pipes)
Energy (via cables)
Industrial Points (as it is a abstract concept)
Emergency Food (but not regular food)

Leftover Logistics Points
After the SHQ does it's automatic stuff, there will be some points left. Hopefully that is a lot.
And hopefully that is not just a lot because you could not bring enough stuff to your troops because of range.
Those leftover points you can use to raise formations in places other then your SHQ. Or use for Strategic Movement. Or to upgrade/replace troops for units in the field

Truck AP and Distance
Considering that each hex is ~200km on the short diagonal, it should not come as surprise that trucks can not move infinitely far!
A Public T1 Truck Station has 1000 Truck Points (Logistics Capacity) and 100 TruckAP. Those AP define how far you get to use the the full capacity - and how far the capacity will dwindle off.
Each Terrain has a AP cost for the "Truck Logistics". 25 is not uncommon for flat terrain. Hard terrain can go up to 75. With Roads it is 10 (Dirt Road) or 5 (Paved Road) AP per hex.
In the traffic Signs menu you can see how many of those AP are used already , how many there are in total (note that leaving the transport assets/city hex counts as well). It does not show this data for hexes without roads, but the same math happens there!
As long as the Trucks have not yet used more then 100 AP to get to a hex (and no road split the capacity), you still got fully supply capacity of 1000. Once they start using more then 100 AP, the supply capacity will drop of sharply. Think of them having to carry extra food and fuel for the journey on the back of the vehicle.

Let's meet halfway there
You propably have more then 1 Truck Station that will be using the same road. When they meet, they add together for the total amount of supplies that can go across that road/through that wilderness.

Bottlenecks
Picture a distance of 21 hexes bewtween two points (it will most lilkely be zones, but it could be any points really).
Picture both points having a Public Truck station 1, that send all their stuff towards the other point
Picture the 1000 truck Points reaching exactly 10 hexes, then drop off to 100 Truck points at the 11th Hex and 0 after wards (it is not quite that extreme in teh game).
So the hex in the middle will only have 200 Logitics. Guess what? You only get 200 Units across that road. That 1 Hex is the bottleneck.

Bottlenecks happen when two supply producers "meet" just after they started trailing off.
They also happen if there is 3 truck stops: 2 T1 at the endpoints, 1 T1 in the middle. Likely the T1 in the middle will dictate how much can flow over this road.

Organic Supply - let us make a food run!
Units are not entirely passive receivers of supply either. Their supply is a lot more forgiving then the one for Assets. It turns out that people are willing to go the extra 1000 miles towards a good supply line!
Terrain also has a Cost for the Movetype "Organic Supply". Asume each unit has 100 "freeOrganicSupplyAP" and a "OrganicSupplyPoints" that just matches the maximum they can request per turn
They work similar to truck points, in that they spread out, dwindling off after they ran out of AP.
Usually movement cost for the Organic supply is a fraction of the one for trucks:
On flat terrain it is 12 organic/25 Truck.
In Mountain 20 Organic/75 Trucks.
So asume that Organic Supply makes up about half of your total supply range!

(Not) off the rails
Rails are really good at moving a lot of supplies over very long distances. But really useless at distributing those supplies anywhere along the lines. They need a endpoint - Railhead or other station - to drop any relevant quantities off (without, only 10% can reach any given hex).
And asuming they did not just deliver to a Zone or SHQ inventory, then they also need a truck Station in the same hex or organic supply to actually distribute the stuff to troops!
They are good at getting stuff to the Strategic Base. And can even help at collecting the stuff at the Operational base in the first place. But it is still the local trucks that make it a Strategic base!

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 6/17/2020 10:55:16 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Let's talk about logistics - 6/16/2020 4:18:25 PM   
jimwinsor


Posts: 963
Joined: 11/21/2005
Status: offline
Excellent post! There’s one question I’ve been wondering about, however: You mentioned the advisability of producing water locally. But isn’t water (and oil and power) delivered for free by pipelines and cables? So say the rules, which declare them to have zero weight for supply capacity distribution purposes. But OTOH, I’ve seen inexplicable shortages of these in zone inventories occasionally, which makes me wonder if they aren’t distributed totally free after all. Am I missing something?

_____________________________

Streaming as "Grognerd" at https://www.twitch.tv/grognerd

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 2
RE: Let's talk about logistics - 6/16/2020 5:46:47 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 1492
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor

Excellent post! There’s one question I’ve been wondering about, however: You mentioned the advisability of producing water locally. But isn’t water (and oil and power) delivered for free by pipelines and cables? So say the rules, which declare them to have zero weight for supply capacity distribution purposes. But OTOH, I’ve seen inexplicable shortages of these in zone inventories occasionally, which makes me wonder if they aren’t distributed totally free after all. Am I missing something?

Interesting:
5.11.1.4 does indeed say they are free "Pipes" and "Cables" are asumed, with IP also an abstracted item.
And it would be easy to mistake a Worker shortage for a Fuel shortage or vice versa.

Cables and Pipes are actually a serious infrastructure investment. Something a Shadow Empire might not be a ble to afford. So it could simply be an old idea that was scrapped.

As there is no log to see how precisely the Logsitcs points were spent, it is really hard to say.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 6/16/2020 5:48:09 PM >

(in reply to jimwinsor)
Post #: 3
RE: Let's talk about logistics - 6/16/2020 7:16:09 PM   
GodwinW


Posts: 510
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline
Pipes and cables are definitely there. It's very easy to see if you construct some assets and keep an eye on the LIS.

One thing that did surprise me was that even a metal mine outside of a city only requires the 100 LIS at turn start and does not use any to transport the metal to the city.

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 4
RE: Let's talk about logistics - 6/16/2020 8:29:47 PM   
willgamer


Posts: 835
Joined: 6/2/2002
From: Huntsville, Alabama
Status: offline
@zgrssd Really nicely done!

I would only add that I consider rails mandatory for linking regions to the SHQ.

After the initial rail line is built, I make upgrading it a higher priority that upgrading truck stations.

_____________________________

Rex Lex or Lex Rex?

(in reply to GodwinW)
Post #: 5
RE: Let's talk about logistics - 6/17/2020 12:15:57 AM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 1492
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

Pipes and cables are definitely there. It's very easy to see if you construct some assets and keep an eye on the LIS.

One thing that did surprise me was that even a metal mine outside of a city only requires the 100 LIS at turn start and does not use any to transport the metal to the city.

I guess having them just need "proof they could be supplied" was a nessesary simplification.

The logistics system is coplex enough, without the need to deal with Logistics Point being used by assets.

Edit: Okay, add the section "Free Shipping included". I could also add Emergency food to the list.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 6/17/2020 1:19:59 AM >

(in reply to GodwinW)
Post #: 6
RE: Let's talk about logistics - 6/17/2020 1:36:33 AM   
Grotius


Posts: 5786
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline
Thanks for this very helpful post. Can you elaborate more on how rail works? For example, can I make one rail line with lots of stations along it, and will units be able to draw supply from each station? For that matter, can I make one rail line with 4 or 5 railheads on it?

_____________________________


(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 7
RE: Let's talk about logistics - 6/17/2020 9:41:51 AM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 1492
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius

Thanks for this very helpful post. Can you elaborate more on how rail works? For example, can I make one rail line with lots of stations along it, and will units be able to draw supply from each station? For that matter, can I make one rail line with 4 or 5 railheads on it?

I have not yet used rails myself much. Just going by what I saw with others and my designer instincts.

The purpose of a railhead seems to be a drop-off point, without the cost or uses of a full on station. They provide 0 Rail range, 5 capacity - propably just enough capacity to count as "can drop off here".

But you may want to avoid Rails go through a city with only a railhead. The t-crossing might be the more reiable solution.

(in reply to Grotius)
Post #: 8
RE: Let's talk about logistics - 6/18/2020 5:08:00 AM   
Tomn

 

Posts: 137
Joined: 4/22/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius

Thanks for this very helpful post. Can you elaborate more on how rail works? For example, can I make one rail line with lots of stations along it, and will units be able to draw supply from each station? For that matter, can I make one rail line with 4 or 5 railheads on it?

I have not yet used rails myself much. Just going by what I saw with others and my designer instincts.

The purpose of a railhead seems to be a drop-off point, without the cost or uses of a full on station. They provide 0 Rail range, 5 capacity - propably just enough capacity to count as "can drop off here".

But you may want to avoid Rails go through a city with only a railhead. The t-crossing might be the more reiable solution.


I don't think this is correct. Per the manual 5.11.3.9, you don't need a station or even a railhead to unload cargo - ANY railroad hex with supply can be drawn upon for supplies. The thing is, if there isn't a rail path between a station and either another station or a railhead, only 10% of the rail capacity can be used.

Thus, if we have the following situation...

A -> B -> C

Where A is a train station, B is a railhead, and C is a bit of rail extending past the railhead, and if A produces 1000 train points, then B and ever rail between A-B will get 1000 logistical points and C will receive 100, but a unit can draw supplies at any point between A to C, they're just drastically more limited in how many supplies they can draw from C - assuming that they're out of operational range of B, that is. Using railheads is a fast and cheap way to extend your rail network, particularly important if you're say advancing deep into enemy territory, and the main downside is that it doesn't add new train points which means that for longer lines rail suffers the same dropoff over distance that trucks do, just over a larger scale since rail transport is so cheap and effective. Train stations don't serve as supply pick-up points, they serve as range extenders on your existing train network much like trucks do for each other.

Edit: It's also not STRICTLY necessary for you to have a truck stop on a train station or railhead as your troops can still pick up supplies from the end of the rail line via their own operational logistics, but without a truck stop you won't be able to shove supplies further down the roads, which is generally faster and cheaper than building rail up to the new front line.

< Message edited by Tomn -- 6/18/2020 6:53:45 AM >

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 9
RE: Let's talk about logistics - 6/18/2020 8:55:18 AM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 1492
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius

Thanks for this very helpful post. Can you elaborate more on how rail works? For example, can I make one rail line with lots of stations along it, and will units be able to draw supply from each station? For that matter, can I make one rail line with 4 or 5 railheads on it?

I have not yet used rails myself much. Just going by what I saw with others and my designer instincts.

The purpose of a railhead seems to be a drop-off point, without the cost or uses of a full on station. They provide 0 Rail range, 5 capacity - propably just enough capacity to count as "can drop off here".

But you may want to avoid Rails go through a city with only a railhead. The t-crossing might be the more reiable solution.


I don't think this is correct. Per the manual 5.11.3.9, you don't need a station or even a railhead to unload cargo - ANY railroad hex with supply can be drawn upon for supplies. The thing is, if there isn't a rail path between a station and either another station or a railhead, only 10% of the rail capacity can be used.


That was written before the Rail System was reworked into it's current thing prior to release

The 10/90% split is there to make the rules happen. How they are implemented. And I did write after all:
"Rails are really good at moving a lot of supplies over very long distances. But really useless at distributing those supplies anywhere along the lines. They need a endpoint - Railhead or other station - to drop any relevant quantities off (without, only 10% can reach any given hex)."

(in reply to Tomn)
Post #: 10
RE: Let's talk about logistics - 6/18/2020 9:03:34 AM   
Tomn

 

Posts: 137
Joined: 4/22/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius

Thanks for this very helpful post. Can you elaborate more on how rail works? For example, can I make one rail line with lots of stations along it, and will units be able to draw supply from each station? For that matter, can I make one rail line with 4 or 5 railheads on it?

I have not yet used rails myself much. Just going by what I saw with others and my designer instincts.

The purpose of a railhead seems to be a drop-off point, without the cost or uses of a full on station. They provide 0 Rail range, 5 capacity - propably just enough capacity to count as "can drop off here".

But you may want to avoid Rails go through a city with only a railhead. The t-crossing might be the more reiable solution.


I don't think this is correct. Per the manual 5.11.3.9, you don't need a station or even a railhead to unload cargo - ANY railroad hex with supply can be drawn upon for supplies. The thing is, if there isn't a rail path between a station and either another station or a railhead, only 10% of the rail capacity can be used.


That was written before the Rail System was reworked into it's current thing prior to release


Oh for heaven's sake, are you sure? This game is complicated enough to understand without the primary reference being outdated.

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 11
RE: Let's talk about logistics - 6/18/2020 1:37:38 PM   
WCG

 

Posts: 137
Joined: 5/30/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Logistics are kinda a important part of the game.


No kidding!

Seriously, I just wanted to thank you for this post. It was very useful!


_____________________________


(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 12
RE: Let's talk about logistics - 6/19/2020 4:21:08 PM   
Munashe

 

Posts: 17
Joined: 12/28/2019
Status: offline
My understanding of the rules is not complete, but I had a logistic idea for supplying the front in the far west of one of my games which turned out to work. I built a rail station in the capital, a rail head near the front with a truck station in the same tile. The rail station can pump a line of supply to the rail head, and the truck station is what acts as the second leg for directly supplying the troops and spreading things out. I think DasTactic's idea regarding the truck extensions is accurate, in that you don't really need a bunch along the roads; you can put one directly adjacent to your capital, and just upgrade it as you need to push more range through the network. For conquest, it seems ideal to capture the city quickly, build a rail head and truck station as a new supply point, and then continue the offensive. Before that, you're relying on the truck station and truck extension from the capital (or nearest city). I also find that managing logistic point flow is very important. You should definitely cut off roads that aren't supporting any units, and make sure assets are only receiving as close as you can get to 100 point increments based on their level. (Mine Lv1 needs 100 supply, Lv2 needs 200, etc)

(in reply to WCG)
Post #: 13
RE: Let's talk about logistics - 6/19/2020 4:37:56 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 1492
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Munashe

My understanding of the rules is not complete, but I had a logistic idea for supplying the front in the far west of one of my games which turned out to work. I built a rail station in the capital, a rail head near the front with a truck station in the same tile. The rail station can pump a line of supply to the rail head, and the truck station is what acts as the second leg for directly supplying the troops and spreading things out. I think DasTactic's idea regarding the truck extensions is accurate, in that you don't really need a bunch along the roads; you can put one directly adjacent to your capital, and just upgrade it as you need to push more range through the network. For conquest, it seems ideal to capture the city quickly, build a rail head and truck station as a new supply point, and then continue the offensive. Before that, you're relying on the truck station and truck extension from the capital (or nearest city). I also find that managing logistic point flow is very important. You should definitely cut off roads that aren't supporting any units, and make sure assets are only receiving as close as you can get to 100 point increments based on their level. (Mine Lv1 needs 100 supply, Lv2 needs 200, etc)

The first half about Rails+Trucks I have all over my post.
And I did not mention the Supply base (or the exploit it currently has) because of of the unfinished nature of such details.

(in reply to Munashe)
Post #: 14
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Shadow Empire >> War Room >> Let's talk about logistics Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.135