Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Anyone think end turn takes too long?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Shadow Empire >> Anyone think end turn takes too long? Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Anyone think end turn takes too long? - 6/13/2020 10:00:15 PM   
BlackRain

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 1/2/2011
Status: offline
Just curious what you all are experiencing. I am on turn 111 or somewhere thereabouts. It takes almost 2 minutes for each turn to process and for the next turn to begin. I feel like this is too long, anyone else experiencing this or longer end of turn times or is it just me that feels this way? After 111 turns, I have basically wasted around 3 hours of my play time just waiting for turns to process.
Post #: 1
RE: Anyone think end turn takes too long? - 6/13/2020 10:03:42 PM   
Vhalor


Posts: 80
Joined: 6/11/2020
Status: offline
It can take some serious time, especially when a lot is happening. Smaller planets help with that though, as does aggressive expansion. What's dead does not take up processing power!

(in reply to BlackRain)
Post #: 2
RE: Anyone think end turn takes too long? - 6/13/2020 10:03:52 PM   
Naselus

 

Posts: 73
Joined: 6/12/2020
Status: offline
I'd rather have long turn timers than an AI too stupid to play against. I read a book in between. But yes, I can see how this would discourage wider adoption of the game - it's been a very long increase between turns over time..

(in reply to BlackRain)
Post #: 3
RE: Anyone think end turn takes too long? - 6/13/2020 10:06:23 PM   
BlackRain

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 1/2/2011
Status: offline
Of course I do not want the AI to become stupid lol, but I feel like it takes me out of the game because whenever I hit end turn, I go and do something else because I know it will take a while. This kind of draws me out every time. I end up in a sort of tug of war because the game is very good and I want to play it, but I hate that it takes too long for the next turn which puts me off a little.

(in reply to Naselus)
Post #: 4
RE: Anyone think end turn takes too long? - 6/13/2020 10:37:54 PM   
Laiders

 

Posts: 123
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline
I don't have that problem psychologically but I'm still in the 60s on a normal - large (larger end of the range I think) so turn times probably aren't pushing two mins yet. I'll be honest I'm such a fiend at the moment I generally alt-tab and read/post here.

I really think the game could use a lot more executive summaries though. Too many reports are too terse and detailed. We need detail yes but I also need something to remind me of the big picture once in a while. I feel this would help with longer turns somewhat.

Wargames in general are very slow to play and have long turn times to boot. It's one of the factors that keeps them niche. Anything to help further optimise this or options to toggle how many major/minors spawn for a given size would be helpful.

(in reply to BlackRain)
Post #: 5
RE: Anyone think end turn takes too long? - 6/13/2020 11:12:23 PM   
ramnblam

 

Posts: 199
Joined: 6/9/2020
From: Australia
Status: offline
Turn times are noticeable but not long on my rig (i7-9700F) but I generally want to see what the AI are doing around my borders anyway, animals and marauders just love bee lining towards your cities.

(in reply to Laiders)
Post #: 6
RE: Anyone think end turn takes too long? - 6/13/2020 11:17:02 PM   
Jdane


Posts: 456
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline
Are you technically savvy people able to tell if this game is relying on a single core to make the needed calculations or not?

(in reply to ramnblam)
Post #: 7
RE: Anyone think end turn takes too long? - 6/13/2020 11:31:16 PM   
Laiders

 

Posts: 123
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline
Loading appeared to distribute evenly both the game itself and my save. Going to end turn now and see. Only using Windows resource monitor so I am mostly eyeballing this off dynamic graphs not getting highly technical and detailed readouts or anything.

Load does not always distribute evenly but it does distribute across my four cores (what my gaming laptop was very expensive at the time but it's like 4+ years old by now). Higher core counts may not get even utilisation of all cores depending on exactly how the game is coded but it will use multiple cores.

(in reply to Jdane)
Post #: 8
RE: Anyone think end turn takes too long? - 6/13/2020 11:44:41 PM   
Jdane


Posts: 456
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline
Thanks for checking.

To get the discussion back on topic, I'm playing on a small planet, 15 zones populated, 4 major regimes, and my antiquated Intel Pentium G3220 dual-core clocked at 3 GHz according to Windows processed the 19th turn of the game in about 45 to 60 seconds according to my estimate (I didn't measure it scientifically at all).

(in reply to Laiders)
Post #: 9
RE: Anyone think end turn takes too long? - 6/13/2020 11:47:39 PM   
GodwinW


Posts: 511
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Naselus

I'd rather have long turn timers than an AI too stupid to play against. I read a book in between. But yes, I can see how this would discourage wider adoption of the game - it's been a very long increase between turns over time..


Agree. But yes, it's quite long. If it could be optimized without compromise I'd be for it :)

(in reply to Naselus)
Post #: 10
RE: Anyone think end turn takes too long? - 6/13/2020 11:53:22 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 1858
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackRain

Just curious what you all are experiencing. I am on turn 111 or somewhere thereabouts. It takes almost 2 minutes for each turn to process and for the next turn to begin. I feel like this is too long, anyone else experiencing this or longer end of turn times or is it just me that feels this way? After 111 turns, I have basically wasted around 3 hours of my play time just waiting for turns to process.

If you think 2 minutes are bad, think of it from the POV of the AI:
You turns can take 15 minutes easily, and that is just one player

In all seriousness: The game is quite detailed, so a lot of calculation before a player is even allowed to make choices.
The processing each AI has to do, scales exponentially with the number of AI's in the game.
So I fear, this is a unavoidable part of a large planet game.

(in reply to BlackRain)
Post #: 11
RE: Anyone think end turn takes too long? - 6/14/2020 7:58:20 AM   
AttuWatcher

 

Posts: 489
Joined: 6/25/2009
From: Hex 181, 36
Status: offline
SSD / NVME drive helps.

You can also turn off "Show AI turn" in the prefs and that will save you around 10 seconds.

_____________________________


(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 12
RE: Anyone think end turn takes too long? - 6/14/2020 10:54:55 AM   
Smidlee

 

Posts: 62
Joined: 8/24/2014
Status: offline
PBEM has really long waiting time.

(in reply to AttuWatcher)
Post #: 13
RE: Anyone think end turn takes too long? - 6/14/2020 11:00:46 AM   
Malevolence


Posts: 1779
Joined: 4/3/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smidlee

PBEM has really long waiting time.




_____________________________

Nicht kleckern, sondern klotzen!

*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

(in reply to Smidlee)
Post #: 14
RE: Anyone think end turn takes too long? - 6/14/2020 12:23:17 PM   
VoodooDog

 

Posts: 75
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline
no

(in reply to Malevolence)
Post #: 15
RE: Anyone think end turn takes too long? - 6/15/2020 5:02:43 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6855
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline
On largest world with all the bells and whistles and major pre war pop takes about 3 minutes for me right now but still early game.

(in reply to VoodooDog)
Post #: 16
RE: Anyone think end turn takes too long? - 6/15/2020 6:20:27 AM   
RecliningJohnnyD

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 6/9/2020
Status: offline
I'm post turn 163 on a 4,5 ghz processor and an M2 SSD, turn-times are up to seven and a half minutes

Sometimes that's longer than my own turns at this stage and I'd be lying if I said it didn't take me out of the game.

I've noticed the save games get bigger. From two and a half MB to about 11 now. They also sometimes become smaller quite quickly, dropping almost a whole MB between turns.

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 17
RE: Anyone think end turn takes too long? - 6/15/2020 6:55:33 AM   
Clux


Posts: 311
Joined: 9/16/2018
From: Mexico
Status: offline
I think than it depends on the map size and amount of minors/majors, on my current game I'm at turn 74 and it only takes 30-45 seconds to finish the turn (Siwa class planet, with only 2 majors and about 5 minors left, I have conquered almost half the map). I have an R5 3600 and I have the game installed on my SSD.

(in reply to RecliningJohnnyD)
Post #: 18
RE: Anyone think end turn takes too long? - 6/15/2020 8:01:09 AM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 1246
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline
Did SSD installation make a difference ? According to the low size of the game, i though everything can be stored in RAM and so disk access are not relevant, but i may be wrong.

(in reply to Clux)
Post #: 19
RE: Anyone think end turn takes too long? - 6/15/2020 11:27:37 AM   
Pi2repsilon

 

Posts: 42
Joined: 6/15/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd


quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackRain

Just curious what you all are experiencing. I am on turn 111 or somewhere thereabouts. It takes almost 2 minutes for each turn to process and for the next turn to begin. I feel like this is too long, anyone else experiencing this or longer end of turn times or is it just me that feels this way? After 111 turns, I have basically wasted around 3 hours of my play time just waiting for turns to process.

If you think 2 minutes are bad, think of it from the POV of the AI:
You turns can take 15 minutes easily, and that is just one player

In all seriousness: The game is quite detailed, so a lot of calculation before a player is even allowed to make choices.
The processing each AI has to do, scales exponentially with the number of AI's in the game.
So I fear, this is a unavoidable part of a large planet game.

Unavoidable? No. Economically not feasible to develop for this developer, perhaps.

This problem for turn strategy games was largely solved decades ago, and it is simple in principle but the devil is in the details and depending on design it can be prohibitively expensive to design and implement. It can also be a memory-hog, depending on implementation.

Where you see 15 minute player turn for the AI to be bored, I see 15 minutes to make AI calculations allowing lightning fast AI turns.

The solution is to take advantage of the player's long turn times to calculate AI action calculations while the player is staring at the screen and taking his turn, stealing as many timeslices as possible where the player doesn't notice.

The idea is that you do this for every AI player in sequence acting after the player, thus creating the orders that each AI will execute in turn when it is their turn.

These calculations and simulated orders needed to make AI decisions are performed on a copy of the game state treated as if it was the AI's start-state (I simplify a bit). The first AI acting after the player gets a copy of the player's current game state, subsequent AIs get a copy of the previous AI's copy's end-state.

You then need to design invalidation conditions; I.e. which actions taken by a player won't invalidate any AI planning (in games with incomplete/hidden information many actions fall in this category), which will invalidate only a few AI orders, which will invalidate a category of planned actions, which will invalidate all orders for an AI player and force it to begin from scratch. This is much harder design work than it might sound. Note that it cascades down the AI sequence: The player does something that invalidates the orders of some of the AIs, the changes they have to recalculate will invalidate that of AIs downsequence from them. And so on. So the AI governor handing out timeslices for AI planning calculations will frequently have to revisit some AI players upsequence that it was otherwise done with.

With very strict invalidation making most player actions force complete recalculation you might as well drop the idea of using the player's turn to plan, with very loose invalidation the AI will perform many actions that are much poorer than it would if it didn't try to plan ahead this way. So the tricky part is to find a good balance.

In practice that means that the more AI players you have and the further down the AI sequence they are, the more their plans will be invalidated and they'll have to do a full AI update with no advance planning once it is their turn in the sequence. So good sequencing with the most requiring AI opponents (largest, biggest action space) handled first makes this work better - but if your game requires a fixed player order this is not an option.

Either way the AIs acting soonest after the player will have most of their planning already done in whole or in part when it is their turn.

Moreover, while ideally your invalidation conditions are such that the AI's playing performance is as good as if you didn't try to plan ahead but just did all calculations when it was the AI's turn, in practice unless the game is designed from the bottom up with the idea of timeslicing AI during the player's turn, it probably won't be.

It is a tricky balance deciding just how strict invalidation forcing recalculation you want to work with.

You might end up concluding that the benefits aren't worth the effort, especially if your game wasn't designed in a framework based on this in the first place or you've got a very small development team.

That's just a rough overview.

ANYHOW, whenever you play a turn-based strategy or tactics game that has generally fast AI turns despite being very complex, they are probably employing a variant of forwards planning by timeslicing the player's turn for AI use. After all, why let all that processing power go to waste while the player is staring at the screen, moving the mouse cursor, or thinking up his own plans?


< Message edited by Pi2repsilon -- 6/15/2020 1:56:25 PM >

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 20
RE: Anyone think end turn takes too long? - 6/15/2020 11:38:05 AM   
Laiders

 

Posts: 123
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline
^ Interesting. The obvious problem here would be, depending on how unified the different levels of AI for each AI reigime, a single action could invalidate an entire turn. If I take hex X and it just so happens that hex X is a pivot point that converts a stable front line to a disordered mess waiting for encirclement and destruction, the AI needs to know that my one action has invalidated everything it has already planned and start again. If the AI does not do this or only the tactical and operational AIs do this but leave high strategy out, you will get problems. I mean realistic problems. Those sorts of disconnects have lost wars.

Another obvious point would be any serious supply disruption. I take hex X and hex X is MSR for half the empire and armies in the field then again no more AI turn.

AI turns where I don't do too much tend to be a bit quicker, perhaps that is wishful thinking on my part, so maybe a limited version of this is in place.

(in reply to Pi2repsilon)
Post #: 21
RE: Anyone think end turn takes too long? - 6/15/2020 12:49:56 PM   
FlashXAron_slith

 

Posts: 131
Joined: 5/14/2012
Status: offline
... that is why turnbased games, with simultan turns are a lot better for not wasting your life time :-)
and even the only way such games could be played as seriouse MP games ...

they coded a complex game, but have problems to use adequate technics to make it work.

Even with the long turn times, their so called AI for the pc controlled nations is crap and only able to compete, because it uses absolut different game rules.
At the moment it is like you play "Squad Leader" and the pc controlled opponents "Risk"

--- They should have used a lot more time with development, how to make it simultan for all. As a human you have to decide , what to do first.
--- code a proper "control program" part for the pc nations, which uses the same rules the human players have
--- offer a modern MP experience

So simultan , would have solved that , apart from other problems that game has at the moment.
I even fear when they will remove cheating from the so called AI , it will be unplayable , because of turn times !

So we could play a game with graphics from 1980 in 2030 LOL


(in reply to Laiders)
Post #: 22
RE: Anyone think end turn takes too long? - 6/15/2020 12:54:01 PM   
FlashXAron_slith

 

Posts: 131
Joined: 5/14/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd


quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackRain

Just curious what you all are experiencing. I am on turn 111 or somewhere thereabouts. It takes almost 2 minutes for each turn to process and for the next turn to begin. I feel like this is too long, anyone else experiencing this or longer end of turn times or is it just me that feels this way? After 111 turns, I have basically wasted around 3 hours of my play time just waiting for turns to process.

If you think 2 minutes are bad, think of it from the POV of the AI:
You turns can take 15 minutes easily, and that is just one player

In all seriousness: The game is quite detailed, so a lot of calculation before a player is even allowed to make choices.
The processing each AI has to do, scales exponentially with the number of AI's in the game.
So I fear, this is a unavoidable part of a large planet game.


and the even greater problem is, that AI is using a lot more simple gamerules set ..
when ever it has to play with the same rules, we will sit 30min and wait


(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 23
RE: Anyone think end turn takes too long? - 6/15/2020 12:58:16 PM   
Kamelpov

 

Posts: 164
Joined: 2/22/2020
Status: offline
The problem with simultaneous turn is like in age of wonder or endless space first click win.

(in reply to FlashXAron_slith)
Post #: 24
RE: Anyone think end turn takes too long? - 6/15/2020 1:41:20 PM   
FlashXAron_slith

 

Posts: 131
Joined: 5/14/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamelpov

The problem with simultaneous turn is like in age of wonder or endless space first click win.


but better to give that advantage to the pc controlled forces,

than how it is now ..
-- waiting to long for a pc turn, where it even uses different (cheating) rules at normal settings.
and MP makes not really sense , or you find some crazy people, who wants to play 200 turns that way.
I am sure it will never finish .. it even would never finish, if it had ONLINE mp , with that turn times !

So yes prefer AGE OF WONDER and ENDLESS SPACE, when we talk about time and AI coding ...

but for sure SHADOW EMPIRE has a lot more interesting gameplay, that is what makes me "sad" ,
that games with interesting , challenging gameplay has crap AI and technical implementations, apart from graphics and sound :-) ...

really would love to see what AGE OF WONDERS (technical,graphics, sound) has, with a complex gameplay like Shadow Empire, Strategic Command (only battlerules and moral/logistic system) or Supreme Ruler ... maybe Distant Worlds 2 will be that ?

but could be, that Shadow Empire will solve that AI problem, as Devs said they will try, but fear "time problems" will never be solved, or they change to simultan turns.


< Message edited by FlashXAron_slith -- 6/15/2020 1:50:03 PM >

(in reply to Kamelpov)
Post #: 25
RE: Anyone think end turn takes too long? - 6/15/2020 2:31:38 PM   
BlackRain

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 1/2/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Clux

I think than it depends on the map size and amount of minors/majors, on my current game I'm at turn 74 and it only takes 30-45 seconds to finish the turn (Siwa class planet, with only 2 majors and about 5 minors left, I have conquered almost half the map). I have an R5 3600 and I have the game installed on my SSD.


I have an i7 7820X and an M2 drive so my PC is quite powerful (64 gb of ram, 2070 super GFX card etx.)

You have very few factions so of course it is faster, plus you are on turn 74. The turns get progressively longer as the game goes on and of course the more factions.

(in reply to Clux)
Post #: 26
RE: Anyone think end turn takes too long? - 6/15/2020 2:32:03 PM   
BlackRain

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 1/2/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AttuWatcher

SSD / NVME drive helps.

You can also turn off "Show AI turn" in the prefs and that will save you around 10 seconds.


The time I mentioned was with Show AI turn off lol.

(in reply to AttuWatcher)
Post #: 27
RE: Anyone think end turn takes too long? - 6/15/2020 3:38:48 PM   
Vic


Posts: 7333
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RecliningJohnnyD

I'm post turn 163 on a 4,5 ghz processor and an M2 SSD, turn-times are up to seven and a half minutes

Sometimes that's longer than my own turns at this stage and I'd be lying if I said it didn't take me out of the game.

I've noticed the save games get bigger. From two and a half MB to about 11 now. They also sometimes become smaller quite quickly, dropping almost a whole MB between turns.


Hi,

Could you send a savegame to vic@vrdesigns.net with a line saying "for speed testing"

I'd like to use your game to do some profiling (looking for speed improvements)

best wishes,
Vic

_____________________________

Visit www.vrdesigns.net for the latest news, polls, screenshots and blogs on Shadow Empire, Decisive Campaigns and Advanced Tactics


(in reply to RecliningJohnnyD)
Post #: 28
RE: Anyone think end turn takes too long? - 6/15/2020 4:02:08 PM   
jwarrenw13

 

Posts: 1577
Joined: 8/12/2000
From: Monroe, LA, USA
Status: offline
No.

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 29
RE: Anyone think end turn takes too long? - 6/15/2020 7:02:24 PM   
ricanuck

 

Posts: 112
Joined: 5/24/2013
Status: offline
I think minors are an issue... I just started a game on Normal size, which generated 6 Majors and 32 Minors. That is 37 AI entities to calculate each turn... granted, Minors do not take that much power, but there is power in numbers

(in reply to jwarrenw13)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Shadow Empire >> Anyone think end turn takes too long? Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.171