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LIS between two points (with picture!) - 6/11/2020 2:18:24 PM   
jpwrunyan


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This is a revision of a previous question I asked that got no responses.

I'm really desperate to understand how LIS points across a road impact how resources flow between two points.
I'm not looking for advice to a problem (give a man a fish).
I'm looking to understand how the mechanic works (teach a man to fish).

So in this example, two truck stops on opposite ends of a road have overlapping LIS range. But where they overlap they have less LIS points obviously that they do at their origin. How does this affect the transfer of resources between them? Like if Point B is a city with 1000 units of food, but the weakest overlap is 8 LIS, how much food gets moved to the SHQ?

What if Point B is not a city but a farm in the same zone? What happens then? It has full LIS from its local truck stop... does it move everything to the city? Even though there's only 8 LIS at the weakest part of the overlap?

Am I fundamentally misunderstanding something? Like does LIS distribute perfectly even between two truck stops? I don't think so, but I wouldn't rule out being completely wrong.




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< Message edited by jpwrunyan -- 6/11/2020 2:23:55 PM >
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RE: LIS between two points (with picture!) - 6/11/2020 2:45:26 PM   
Kamelpov

 

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At the overlap if it say 8 available it mean both are fully supplied.(check the diverse logistic map) the first one if it get cut somewhere it mean bottleneck and full capacity used.
Used logistic points are the light green one it mean how much pts are actually busy or fully used for ressources and whatever thing transfer.
grey one show the total logistics so if the overlap in grey is 8 it mean next turn this part gonna transfer only 8 lis (awful production for zone b - 92% if asset level 1
And I expect with your description you used the first one it mean only 8 LIS more can be used by soldiers going to zone b if they use more people gonna start to get out of supply. So forget strategic redeployment it need at least 1k at the overlap or some big and fat number as soldier weigh 5 and tank, truck 10 so if you want to strategic redeploy 1000 soldier you need at least a good amount in the middle section and once you redeploy unit you gonna see that number going down.

< Message edited by Kamelpov -- 6/11/2020 2:51:25 PM >

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RE: LIS between two points (with picture!) - 6/11/2020 2:48:49 PM   
jpwrunyan


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Thanks. It's hard to check this in-game with the various graphical overlays because in actual games I can't create a simple scenario like this to see what the results are. There are too many variables that obscure the underlying mechanics.

I didn't quite follow how you came up with 92% production based on 8 LIS overlap...??? Can you elaborate?

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RE: LIS between two points (with picture!) - 6/11/2020 2:53:53 PM   
Kamelpov

 

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asset level 1 require 100 lis in grey. If you cut below and you have 8 in grey it mean traffic is 8 pts at this point so only 8 can effectively go from a to b 92 are wasted to transport the fuel to those 8 and I expect a very big distance. It's all in the manual.

< Message edited by Kamelpov -- 6/11/2020 2:55:23 PM >

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RE: LIS between two points (with picture!) - 6/11/2020 3:02:00 PM   
jpwrunyan


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Right, so you meant 8% efficiency, not 92%. I misread your post. That's why I was confused. I understand this part. But if the asset has a truck stop next to it. It has 100% LIS. How does it get its goods back to SHQ if there's a thin point of 8 LIS between the two. Again assuming that's how LIS distribution can work between two truck stops on opposite ends of a road. I'm guessing it's the same answer as what you gave. But I'm not certain how it looks on the UI because I can't do this in-game. But in this case, available local LIS is irrelevant to actual production/transport. Again, assuming that you and I are on the same page.

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RE: LIS between two points (with picture!) - 6/11/2020 3:02:06 PM   
Kamelpov

 

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So if you build 2 truck station the maximum distance point you put the second truck station is at the point where the oil consumption is 10. (it mean you need at least 10 pts in order to supply that truck station and generate LIS) then the output looks great but in reality the weakest point would be the middle of that point so the real traffic would be weak and you can forget supply from SHQ as everything will be likely be used except if you dedicate the whole second truck in the direction of SHQ it mean the whole 1000 pts goes toward shq so you will likely have enough to supply few corps armies on zone b as the overlap would be a high number enough.
If you use only the actual LIS map just try to get that continuous line and everything will be ok.
If you get more than 500 pts at the weakest link you may strategic redeploy detachements. And if you have the weakest link over 5000 approximately in dark grey you can redeploy corps like the railroad system but with truck.

< Message edited by Kamelpov -- 6/11/2020 3:06:48 PM >

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RE: LIS between two points (with picture!) - 6/11/2020 3:02:37 PM   
Jdane


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I'm starting to get knots in my brain so I won't elaborate much.

But I suggest you take a look at the table which is buried under the section 5.11.5.11. maxImal loGIstICal PoInts usaGe settInG for shqs (apologies for my PDF reader software failing to format the header properly).

It details the successive phases of the supply process during turn resolution. The important thing to notice according to me is there are only three categories interacting : the zone, the SHQ, the units.

1. SHQ sends to the zone it administrates the Items they request (such as for constructing a public Asset).
2. SHQ sends to the units the supplies they request (food, fuel, ammo, energy, I think it covers it all).
Calculations are being made, the zones produce Items, build Assets, then :
3. Zone sends Items produced to the SHQ.
4. SHQ sends to the units the Replacements they request.

One key part being I should have written « tries and send if there's enough LIS left to spend on this road » instead of « sends ».
Another being Zone B does not ask Zone A for Items, but asks the SHQs it is under. ( And there's no such thing as a city in this system, only a zone. )

So, assuming Zone A and Zone B are under SHQ 1, Items « going from A to B » are in fact sent from Zone A to SHQ 1's inventory in phase 3 of the supply process during turn X, and then sent from SHQ 1 to Zone B during phase 1 of the supply process during turn X+1. At least if I'm not totally confused and wrong about it.

And you'd have to have a solid enough logistics network - i.e. projecting enough LIS from Truck Stations on the relevant roads - for carrying Items from A to SHQ 1, then from SHQ 1 to B. (Which can be a trivial issue if for example SHQ 1 sits in zone A's city where most of the producing Assets are.)

I hope this sheds at least a little light.

< Message edited by Jdane -- 6/11/2020 3:09:26 PM >

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RE: LIS between two points (with picture!) - 6/11/2020 3:12:44 PM   
jpwrunyan


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That does help. But I was hoping to understand each phase individually with the artificial assumption that each step executes without the others interfering. So for example, let's assume for SHQ -> zone with the above example, what happens? How much production does the asset get? Then I would guess that in case of zone -> SHQ (where the SHQ -> zone was 0 due to no requirements) the resulting return logistics works the same? How much inventory from zone B gets to SHQ?

I know that in reality you will always have SHQ -> zone interfering with zone -> SHQ and SHQ -> units (and that it's configurable in game) but I'm trying to just approach the granular mechanics one at a time...

So like I'm thinking in my example there is either binary connected/not connected logistics. If the AP range overlaps, the LIS gets distributed evenly through the entire line? Or if the AP range (the lines) do not overlap, the LIS do get shared at all.

In case of overlap, the gradient disappears and you have a solid color. In case there's no overlap, you have a gradient range. Does that sound right?

< Message edited by jpwrunyan -- 6/11/2020 3:18:32 PM >

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RE: LIS between two points (with picture!) - 6/11/2020 3:14:51 PM   
Kamelpov

 

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Shq send how much it depend on the weakest point if you try to build a whole big project (factory IV) the next turn and you only have 8 like your picture say you will have a very long time to build that thing. If you use the regular available map.
Personally I use the grey and the light green much clear .as the gray show maximum output of the road and light green consumption. If you start the game turn 1 gray is at 400 in your main city and if you nationalize the truck station it should be 1000. you will see your militia in light green and see how much they take from that capacity. like 16 or whatever.

< Message edited by Kamelpov -- 6/11/2020 3:18:56 PM >

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RE: LIS between two points (with picture!) - 6/11/2020 3:22:25 PM   
jpwrunyan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamelpov

Shq send how much it depend on the weakest point if you try to build a whole big project (factory IV) the next turn and you only have 8 like your picture say you will have a very long time to build that thing. If you use the regular available map.
Personally I use the grey and the light green much clear .as the gray show maximum output of the road and light green consumption. If you start the game turn 1 gray is at 400 in your main city and if you nationalize the truck station it should be 1000. you will see your militia in light green and see how much they take from that capacity. like 16 or whatever.


I think that's true with LIS to an asset with no logistics asset at its terminus. Like the LIS diminishes with AP range. But I think perhaps if you have logistic assets at both ends and their AP range overlaps, then suddenly the entire segment shares the same average LIS. So that means there would be no bottleneck at the overlapping hex. I'm not certain, but does this sound right? Obviously in-game it never seems to work like this.

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RE: LIS between two points (with picture!) - 6/11/2020 3:24:54 PM   
Jdane


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No, I'm pretty sure it happens in sequence, in the order stated in the table.
I.e. there's no interference.

To follow your example cases:
- The SHQ will « consume » as much LIS as it needs to send the zone all the materials the Asset needs to be constructed. If there's enough, fine, if not construction will be only partial and thus slowed down.
- Since you posited a scenario where SHQ -> zone was 0 during phase 1, during phase 3 the zone will try and send all of its production (and I'm quite certain almost any Items accumulated in its own inventory because of previous logistics issues) to the SHQ, consuming whatever LIS were left after phase 2 (SHQ sending supplies to the troops).
- Not quite sure I followed, but as much as the remaining LIS points on the road between zone B and SHQ have left to spend allows.

However I am not at all clear on what happens if for example the network is such as:
SHQ in zone A's city -> zone B city -> zone C city.
In which order is SHQ sending Items to B and C? I have no idea. From closest to farthest? Or the contrary? Or depending on a different factor?
Obviously you'd have to have a very strong link between A and B to allow stuff to flow through both ways during the supply process, but other than that I have no real clue about what goes on under the hood.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamelpov

Shq send how much it depend on the weakest point


That is also my understanding and and key point in my opinion.

< Message edited by Jdane -- 6/11/2020 3:27:40 PM >

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RE: LIS between two points (with picture!) - 6/11/2020 3:41:53 PM   
jpwrunyan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jdane

No, I'm pretty sure it happens in sequence, in the order stated in the table.
I.e. there's no interference.



Just a quick clarification, I mean no interference in terms of LIS consumption. Like LIS consumed in stage 1 is not available for stage 2, 3, etc. Does that make sense?

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RE: LIS between two points (with picture!) - 6/11/2020 3:55:55 PM   
jpwrunyan


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I feel perhaps more confused than before, but let me see if this helps:

Zone produes X LIS over range of AP. Again linear network. I'm truncating this to a two hex AP range (so after the first hex away from the zone, LIS diminishes--is that technically range 1?). In actuality, the minimum truck station should be like 4 hexes at 100%.

In terms of distance hexes:
| Zone A |
| 100%   || 100%   ||  80%   ||  60%   ||  40%   ||  20%*  ||   0%   ||        ||        ||        || Zone B |
|        ||        ||        ||        ||   0%   ||  20%*  ||   40%  ||  60%   ||  80%   || 100%   || 100%   |

* maximum viable extend for an asset to get LIS from either Zone (whichever zone this hex belongs to)


Let's say that both Zone A and Zone B produce 100 logistics points each. Is the maximum exchange of *anything* between the two 20 LIS? Or am I totally off-base in thinking they are connected since their AP range (the last hex with 100%) do not *overlap*? This key point I feel is breaking me.

So first of all, in the above, do these two zones even connect to each other? I'll wait to know that before continuing.

< Message edited by jpwrunyan -- 6/11/2020 4:00:22 PM >

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RE: LIS between two points (with picture!) - 6/11/2020 4:12:17 PM   
Kamelpov

 

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The road work at 20% of A + 20% of B. So in your example only 40 LIP go through. so if B is a soldier on a truck site or something that need reinforcements only 40 go through at most and if it share with ressources like agri dome well one of those 2 gonna suffer as 40 Lis will be used either to get the food from B to A or supply troops From SHQ and supply the truck station in B with oil so effectively 30 LIS free for use after maintainance.

< Message edited by Kamelpov -- 6/11/2020 4:15:42 PM >

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RE: LIS between two points (with picture!) - 6/11/2020 4:14:46 PM   
springel


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I think that line has a capacity of "40%" for transport between A and B.

When they were 3 hexes closer, you would have "100%".

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RE: LIS between two points (with picture!) - 6/11/2020 4:22:25 PM   
Jdane


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Yes, phase 2 of supply works with what's left from phase 1, and so on, and if you have LIS left after phase 4, that's the capacity of strategic movement you have available.

Apologies for having caused more confusion.

As for your schematic, I would say on this road you have a budget of 40 (100 points from A times 0.2 plus 100 points from B times 0.2) to spend before the logistics capacity becomes exhausted and the three middle hexes turn black on the Bottlenecks preview.

So I'd say, yes, those two zones connect, albeit not optimally.

P.S. : At this point I believe my slowness to respond is becoming well known.



< Message edited by Jdane -- 6/11/2020 4:23:42 PM >

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RE: LIS between two points (with picture!) - 6/11/2020 4:59:56 PM   
jpwrunyan


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Thank you everyone!

Ok, so now here's the next iteration of my question:


In terms of distance hexes:
| Zone A |
| 200 LIS|                                                                                             
| 100%   || 100%   ||  80%   ||  60%   ||  40%   ||  20%*  ||   0%   ||        ||        ||        || Zone B |
|        ||        ||        ||        ||        ||   +    ||        ||        ||        ||        || 100 LIS|
|        ||        ||        ||        ||   0%   ||  20%*  ||   40%  ||  60%   ||  80%   || 100%   || 100%   |
  total   
| 100%   || 100%   ||  80%   ||  60%   ||  40%   ||  40%** ||   40%  ||  60%   ||  80%   || 100%   || 100%   |
| LIS pts|
|   ?    ||   ?    ||   ?    ||   ?    ||   ?    ||   ?    ||   ?    ||   ?    ||   ?    ||   ?    ||   ?    |

* combined total LIS% on this network
** seems dubious...



My new question is, given that Zone A creates 200 logistics points and Zone B creates 100, how many logistics points are in each hex?

I'm guessing:
200, 200, 160, 120, 80, 60 (40 + 20), 40, 60, 80, 100, 100?
Uh, is that right??? Or is it:
150, 150, 120, 90, 60, 60, 60, 90, 120, 150, 150?

The first answer assumes the points are added to the hex based on the closest center. The second answer assumes that LIS are evenly shared in the network (unlikely???). Haven't figured this out from the manual...

Obviously as soon as you throw in another done or a fork in the road, the math becomes orders of magnitude more difficult. I just wanna get the basics.

< Message edited by jpwrunyan -- 6/11/2020 5:05:26 PM >

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RE: LIS between two points (with picture!) - 6/11/2020 5:10:54 PM   
Kamelpov

 

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It's the first one so the final output is still 40 at the end as it's too far away and we only take the lowest result. The real result is slightly higher as the radius from A is 1 hex higher at least so it may be 45-50.

< Message edited by Kamelpov -- 6/11/2020 5:14:58 PM >

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RE: LIS between two points (with picture!) - 6/11/2020 5:23:11 PM   
jpwrunyan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamelpov

It's the first one so the final output is still 40 at the end as it's too far away and we only take the lowest result. The real result is slightly higher as the radius from A is 1 hex higher at least so it may be 45-50.


Got it. This makes sense to me because this is the weakest link in the chain.

So if I boosted the LIS pts production to 200 in zone B would my new bottleneck be 80?
Here's my math:
200, 200, 160, 120, 80, 80*, 80, 120, 160, 200, 200?

* 40(20%) from Zone A + 40(20%) from Zone B


< Message edited by jpwrunyan -- 6/11/2020 5:25:38 PM >

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RE: LIS between two points (with picture!) - 6/11/2020 5:57:24 PM   
Jdane


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I very much believe so, yes.

What I take from this experiments in thought is the need to pay attention to the weakest links of the supply network (such as in your example where Truck Station B was producing less truck points than Station A and was causing a bottleneck on the road).

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RE: LIS between two points (with picture!) - 6/11/2020 6:14:41 PM   
jpwrunyan


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I hope this is correct because I'm starting to think that instead of truck stations I need to be building supply bases.

Like a rule of thumb is instead of truck stations every 8 or so hexes, build one truck station, one supply base, one truck station, one supply base, and so on. I feel like I have tons of LIS but it never gets to where it's supposed to be. I mean 0% of anything is 0.

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RE: LIS between two points (with picture!) - 6/11/2020 6:25:49 PM   
Jdane


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I would say keep in mind that a Supply Base only adds some Action Points for your truck points to extend their range. You can see it clearly when inspecting the road network with the Traffic Signs tool: there's a separate count for the original 100 APs from the Station and the 50 APs a level 1 Supply Base provides.

You might send 1 000 trucks further down the road, but if you need to transport 2 000 truck's worth of cargo, you'll still have supply issues.

And if you upgrade dirt roads to sealed roads, you're basically doubling your range (since you're halving the AP cost for passing through a hex).

But this brings up one thing I'm wondering about : only the first Supply Base extends the range of the Truck Station upstream, I get this.
But if the situation is : Truck Station A <-> Supply Base <-> Truck Station B, does the AP bonus apply to both A and B's truck points? I'll have to pay attention to this in game.

< Message edited by Jdane -- 6/11/2020 6:27:28 PM >

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RE: LIS between two points (with picture!) - 6/11/2020 7:15:23 PM   
Malevolence


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During your turn show "current points;, find a small unit on the map and upgrade it. Check your current points again. Based on weighted LPs, you can see your current LPs reduced along the route from the origin (e.g. SHQ) to your unit.

I believe every delivery works sequentially like that procedure.

Too few available LP in any hex along the chain and the delivery is aborted. It's a graph transverse (pathing algorithm) where the cost is debited from each path node--if a valid path is found.


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RE: LIS between two points (with picture!) - 6/11/2020 8:00:24 PM   
MemoryLeak


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I was getting ready to buy the game until I read this post. What a mess. I am glad I read this first and saved my money.

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RE: LIS between two points (with picture!) - 6/11/2020 9:28:05 PM   
Jdane


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It sure looks daunting like this but we're somewhat finessing here.
I can assure you jpwrunyan's diagrams have caused me greater headaches than the actual game.

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RE: LIS between two points (with picture!) - 6/11/2020 9:58:01 PM   
jpwrunyan


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Well, this game's logistics issues have caused me greater headaches than these posts. I *always* lose a game because of logistics failures. Troops starve, tanks run out of fuel, and then I lose my army to the AI. I can *not* win.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jdane
I would say keep in mind that a Supply Base only adds some Action Points for your truck points to extend their range.
But this brings up one thing I'm wondering about : only the first Supply Base extends the range of the Truck Station upstream, I get this.
But if the situation is : Truck Station A <-> Supply Base <-> Truck Station B, does the AP bonus apply to both A and B's truck points? I'll have to pay attention to this in game.


Often extending the range is the only thing I need to get stuff from one zone to another. Building a truck station is overkill and costs twice the amount of fuel to maintain. Once I connect to another city with range, I can build a truck station in *that* city where it is much more defensible.

The question of what happens when a supply depot is shared between one or more stations, it should extend the range of both. The document implies it by stating that it's a depot for dropping off fuel and crew to take shifts. So yeah, if you need range and not LIS, Station/Supply change seems the way to go. If you radically need more LIS, a chain of stations is fine. But why chain stations instead of just upgrading them? Especially in the early game before I have paved roads and still rely on stockpiles of fuel.

Anyway, the advantage of paved roads is great, but it's impossible to optimize for it in your original logistics network.

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RE: LIS between two points (with picture!) - 6/11/2020 10:01:32 PM   
Grotius


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Does this situation explain why I sometimes see two percentages in the bottleneck overlay -- one in parentheses, one not? What do the two numbers mean?

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RE: LIS between two points (with picture!) - 6/11/2020 10:18:39 PM   
DasTactic

 

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Hi WadeStar,
Your first assumption was correct with the points...
200, 200, 160, 120, 80, 60 (40 + 20), 40, 60, 80, 100, 100

LIS points are all that matters in the end - not percentages. Percentages just show the effect of the erosion of the action points on the LIS.

Supply stations only provide Extension Points (EP - a bit like action points) and only apply ONCE to each LIS initiation point that goes through it. While there are EP it doesn't use Action points. But if it goes through a second Supply Station you don't get any more EP.

You can also double your AP and EP (and so you double your supply range) by building sealed roads.

If you use the traffic sign tool along the road you can isolate every truck station and see exactly how many LIS points, AP and EP are being allocated at each hex.

When the turn starts these points are then used to ship stuff to and fro from hex to hex. If you use 100% of the LIS in one hex then that amount is the maximum amount sent to the next hex along. This is shown as black on the Bottleneck tool.

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RE: LIS between two points (with picture!) - 6/12/2020 1:33:49 AM   
jpwrunyan


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I had not thought of using the traffic tool to debug point distributions along a straight road. That is a clever (though time consuming) idea.

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