Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

What's hard and what's soft?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Shadow Empire >> What's hard and what's soft? Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
What's hard and what's soft? - 6/11/2020 12:18:50 PM   
Malevolence


Posts: 1781
Joined: 4/3/2010
Status: offline
Per Attack Scores section in the manual, every model, per it's weapon, has a soft attack, soft defense, hard attack, and hard defense. These with some modifiers establish the firepower in a given enagement.

However, nothing in the manual explicitly defines what's hard and what's soft in the game.

I assume my soft attack value is when that model attacks something soft. and etc. for the other three values. In other words, this model, in this tactical attack/defense posture, against a soft/hard target.

Nothing in any screen Ive found states what's hard and what's soft. I've been making assumptions, but is a Soldier in Combat Armor hard or soft?

I don't really know.

< Message edited by Malevolence -- 6/11/2020 12:21:47 PM >


_____________________________

Nicht kleckern, sondern klotzen!

*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.
Post #: 1
RE: What's hard and what's soft? - 6/11/2020 12:23:01 PM   
WeaverofBrokenThreads

 

Posts: 71
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline
Anything with armor thickness is 'hard'.

(in reply to Malevolence)
Post #: 2
RE: What's hard and what's soft? - 6/11/2020 12:29:32 PM   
Malevolence


Posts: 1781
Joined: 4/3/2010
Status: offline
So infantry in Combat Armor are hard then?


_____________________________

Nicht kleckern, sondern klotzen!

*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

(in reply to WeaverofBrokenThreads)
Post #: 3
RE: What's hard and what's soft? - 6/11/2020 12:30:49 PM   
Jdane


Posts: 456
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline
I concur.

I've been assuming soft and hard target are armored and unarmored, but there are fringe cases in which I'm not too sure.

Vehicles for instance : I'm assuming all are armored, thus hard targets, except maybe transport trucks?
Or cannons. Although I'm almost sure they're soft targets, there's nowhere I can see it for sure.

If it needs high velocity armor piercing munitions it's a hard target, and if you can make do with small arms and explosives it's soft. But oh noes there are fringe cases too, so that's just a very basic rule of thumb and in no way foolproof.

So, I'm on board with you. A simple mention in the model's description if it's a soft or hard target would solve the issue once and for all.

(in reply to Malevolence)
Post #: 4
RE: What's hard and what's soft? - 6/11/2020 12:32:10 PM   
Kamelpov

 

Posts: 167
Joined: 2/22/2020
Status: offline
Infantry artillery and truck and AT gun are soft and everything else are hard. (if you see infantry armor on the unit or nothing like truck it's soft)

(in reply to Jdane)
Post #: 5
RE: What's hard and what's soft? - 6/11/2020 12:36:23 PM   
WeaverofBrokenThreads

 

Posts: 71
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline
To rephrase then, from observation, anything that has vehicle armor counts as a hard target.

To go into more detail, I believe the game determines which attack value to use based on the final attack score. If your weapon cannot penetrate the armor and its final value is lower than its hard attack value, then it will use hard attack/Guns.

(in reply to Jdane)
Post #: 6
RE: What's hard and what's soft? - 6/11/2020 12:36:56 PM   
Malevolence


Posts: 1781
Joined: 4/3/2010
Status: offline
Starting buggies have 5mm of "armor". That's not armor. However... Hard.

Trucks, Soft.

I'm making all the same assumptions. But, I challenge any player to show me evidence.


_____________________________

Nicht kleckern, sondern klotzen!

*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

(in reply to Kamelpov)
Post #: 7
RE: What's hard and what's soft? - 6/11/2020 12:41:06 PM   
Malevolence


Posts: 1781
Joined: 4/3/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WeaverofBrokenThreads
To go into more detail, I believe the game determines which attack value to use based on the final attack score. If your weapon cannot penetrate the armor and its final value is lower than its hard attack value, then it will use hard attack/Guns.


That I'm not sure about. Clearly, types of weapons have modifiers to hard and soft. That's in the manual.

Also, there is a penalty-bonus for muzzle diameter vs armor thinkness. Also in the manual. Did you know soldiers basic slugthrower weapons count as 20mm muzzle diameters for this calculation? Sorry 5mm thick buggy.


< Message edited by Malevolence -- 6/11/2020 12:42:30 PM >


_____________________________

Nicht kleckern, sondern klotzen!

*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

(in reply to WeaverofBrokenThreads)
Post #: 8
RE: What's hard and what's soft? - 6/11/2020 12:59:11 PM   
diamondspider

 

Posts: 141
Joined: 5/15/2020
Status: offline
I made the same assumptions as given here (pretty common in wargames like this), but you can verify this by looking in combat details for how it calculates if it uses the hard or soft value in various cases. So if you doubt some specific case, it is easy to test.

(in reply to Malevolence)
Post #: 9
RE: What's hard and what's soft? - 6/11/2020 1:19:53 PM   
WeaverofBrokenThreads

 

Posts: 71
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline
Well, attacking APCs seems to use soft attack. I am not sure anymore. I guess it is related to type then. Also, I am 100% sure that calibre matrix does absolutely nothing, currently. Vehicle or personal armor.

(in reply to diamondspider)
Post #: 10
RE: What's hard and what's soft? - 6/11/2020 1:39:44 PM   
diamondspider

 

Posts: 141
Joined: 5/15/2020
Status: offline
No surprise they use soft attack, but are they considered hard targets?

(in reply to WeaverofBrokenThreads)
Post #: 11
RE: What's hard and what's soft? - 6/11/2020 1:42:44 PM   
WeaverofBrokenThreads

 

Posts: 71
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline
You attack APCs with soft attack, which shouldn't be the case.

(in reply to diamondspider)
Post #: 12
RE: What's hard and what's soft? - 6/11/2020 1:52:09 PM   
diamondspider

 

Posts: 141
Joined: 5/15/2020
Status: offline
That is good to know. It is true that really only tanks are always considered hard targets. APCs, Jeeps/Buggys, AT Guns, Artillery, can all depend on the system. So, perhaps I'll have to go into the logs and test them all.

(in reply to WeaverofBrokenThreads)
Post #: 13
RE: What's hard and what's soft? - 6/11/2020 1:53:30 PM   
WeaverofBrokenThreads

 

Posts: 71
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline
I think that is a good starting assumption, but you should test it all carefully for optimal model design.

(in reply to diamondspider)
Post #: 14
RE: What's hard and what's soft? - 6/11/2020 2:43:03 PM   
Culthrasa

 

Posts: 183
Joined: 4/16/2017
Status: offline
THe manual lists the unit categories. From what i've experienced everything with "personal armor is" treated as "soft" and everything with armor is treated as "hard". Page 321 of the manual.




(in reply to WeaverofBrokenThreads)
Post #: 15
RE: What's hard and what's soft? - 6/11/2020 3:32:24 PM   
jimwinsor


Posts: 1076
Joined: 11/21/2005
Status: offline
Kind of a related question, what counts as "mechanized" for the various posture stratagems? Is it the ones that have a "motor" in the chart above?

_____________________________

Streaming as "Grognerd" at https://www.twitch.tv/grognerd

(in reply to Culthrasa)
Post #: 16
RE: What's hard and what's soft? - 6/11/2020 3:55:16 PM   
olin0111

 

Posts: 23
Joined: 3/7/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor

Kind of a related question, what counts as "mechanized" for the various posture stratagems? Is it the ones that have a "motor" in the chart above?


That is an interesting question. When it comes to stratagems I believe motorized infantry, for example, is counted as a motorized unit when you adopt blitzkrieg but will need to double check to confirm. So the motorized infantry in that case gets posture bonuses from stratagems for motorized units but when something fires at an infantry subunit during combat resolution it uses the defense fire value for soft targets.

(in reply to jimwinsor)
Post #: 17
RE: What's hard and what's soft? - 6/11/2020 3:58:16 PM   
t1it

 

Posts: 69
Joined: 11/23/2011
Status: offline
I'd like to know also, what counts as "tanks" in the kill/casualty/report in-between turns. Seems like even buggies are called "tanks" in that case...

(in reply to jimwinsor)
Post #: 18
RE: What's hard and what's soft? - 6/11/2020 7:06:12 PM   
Malevolence


Posts: 1781
Joined: 4/3/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Culthrasa

THe manual lists the unit categories. From what i've experienced everything with "personal armor is" treated as "soft" and everything with armor is treated as "hard". Page 321 of the manual.




I think you deciphered it!

Thnaks!


_____________________________

Nicht kleckern, sondern klotzen!

*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

(in reply to Culthrasa)
Post #: 19
RE: What's hard and what's soft? - 6/12/2020 1:44:45 AM   
diamondspider

 

Posts: 141
Joined: 5/15/2020
Status: offline
But Weaver above said his test showed that APC was soft. I'll have to check it myself.

(in reply to Malevolence)
Post #: 20
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Shadow Empire >> What's hard and what's soft? Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.389