Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Shadow Empire >> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess Page: <<   < prev  5 6 [7] 8 9   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/12/2020 1:58:15 AM   
diamondspider

 

Posts: 141
Joined: 5/15/2020
Status: offline
I think this might make the problem worse because then you have gradually fading spam networks that will then need even more remapping. Cheap fix is to allow free (or nearly free) road removal. Perhaps a bit better fix would be to stop the AI road spam, but I'm not volunteering to code that ;)

(in reply to Malevolence)
Post #: 181
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/12/2020 2:04:10 AM   
Malevolence


Posts: 1764
Joined: 4/3/2010
Status: offline
I'd also like maybe just a dev console--if it becomes terribly offensive--I'm not above godmode delete.

_____________________________

Nicht kleckern, sondern klotzen!

*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

(in reply to diamondspider)
Post #: 182
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/12/2020 2:06:57 AM   
Malevolence


Posts: 1764
Joined: 4/3/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: diamondspider

I think this might make the problem worse because then you have gradually fading spam networks that will then need even more remapping. Cheap fix is to allow free (or nearly free) road removal. Perhaps a bit better fix would be to stop the AI road spam, but I'm not volunteering to code that ;)


The logistic system is already using a graph traversal-- it could just delete the last node(s) in the graph. It's measurable and identifiable to the player.


_____________________________

Nicht kleckern, sondern klotzen!

*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

(in reply to diamondspider)
Post #: 183
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/12/2020 2:28:01 AM   
diamondspider

 

Posts: 141
Joined: 5/15/2020
Status: offline
Yes, road removal should be pretty easy (not counting worrying about abuse cases). What is not easy is coding the AI to have good/non-spam roads.

(in reply to Malevolence)
Post #: 184
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/12/2020 3:05:56 AM   
AttuWatcher

 

Posts: 489
Joined: 6/25/2009
From: Hex 181, 36
Status: offline
If road removal is free it will be abused in multiplayer, guaranteed. Make it cost half of what road building costs at the minimum.

Free road removal leads to the same problem we have now with the AI and their free road construction.

Free road construction: road spaghetti everywhere.
Free road removal: entire road networks being deleted anytime, every time there is a war and someone is on the defensive, or even when there is not a war and someone is deliberately trying to turtle or stall.

(in reply to diamondspider)
Post #: 185
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/12/2020 3:09:49 AM   
diamondspider

 

Posts: 141
Joined: 5/15/2020
Status: offline
Hmmm...

First, the rule is you of course cannot delete unless it is your territory. Second, you could put a charge in if humans are involved in multiplayer, and it would be possible to only have it apply to human-built roads. So, yes, abuse cases must be considered, but I'd not predict big problems there.

Let's not forget how big a deal bridge blowing was in WWII, and the same could be done with a mountain pass (the cost of blowing a bridge was very, very low compared with the war effort). Removing roads from clear terrain doesn't give much advantage and then if you ever do counter attack you must pay to rebuild them. I do agree that if I run some motorbikes back into your area and mass delete your road that this could be a real problem. So, yes, with human/human you need to charge.

Charging me to delete AI road spam is not good, and the AI should not be removing roads IMO. I suppose it could be argued that I could too easily screw up AI logistics by riding around deleting roads... maybe there is a 5 turn timer in all cases?

< Message edited by diamondspider -- 6/12/2020 3:15:28 AM >

(in reply to AttuWatcher)
Post #: 186
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/12/2020 4:45:45 AM   
SSFSX17

 

Posts: 182
Joined: 10/14/2001
From: California
Status: offline
I like the Advanced Tactics system more, where there is always a best-possible-route flow from SHQs to sub HQs to divisions, and you can always trace the routes.

Of course Advanced Tactics did not have the Zone or Civilian system, so don't know if that would be feasible in the Shadow Empire engine.

(in reply to omzh)
Post #: 187
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/12/2020 6:57:52 AM   
liq3

 

Posts: 23
Joined: 6/12/2020
Status: offline
Even putting micro aside, there are unavoidable problems the current system creates. If I have exactly the right logistics going to a production building, and the number of workers at the truck station goes down or a military unit use some tiny amount, and now production building isn't producing at 100% even though you could have excessive amounts of spare logistics points available.

(in reply to SSFSX17)
Post #: 188
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/12/2020 7:52:40 AM   
kaliyama

 

Posts: 49
Joined: 7/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MarbleToad

quote:

ORIGINAL: omzh

I don't think there is anything wrong with the traffic lights, and I enjoy a little bit of micro when it comes to logistics, and stretching out offensives that are further out. That being said, I think some of the ideas in this forum make sense to me personally, and would put logistics in a place where it isn't game-ending if you don't micro the system every turn.

1. Pull-based logistics - I tend to think this is the more optimal way to set up logistics, as having demand drive where logistics go removes the micro of having to constantly check your network to make sure none of it is getting wasted. I think DTurtle mentioned, it would require micro once you don't have enough enough supply to reach all of the demand, then you can adjust the routes using traffic lights to make sure supplies are going where they are needed.

One thing I want to add that's been suggested a lot is having a new mechanic that manages your logistics for you - I'm not really a big fan of that, if you're going to add it might as well simplify the system rather than adding a mechanic barely anyone would use, because no one really trusts an AI to handle this stuff for them.

2. Removing Roads - I want this purely for the aesthetics, but I'll admit even besides AI wonkiness I've mistakenly built roads I didn't want. Sure I can just traffic light them, but I'd rather make the map look clean if I can.

As above, the mechanics suggested to deconstruct roads I think is again an unnecessary gimmick. Make the roads free or half cost to deconstruct, it's not a system that needs to be over complicated.

3. More Information/Transparency with Logistics - Part of the problem my ignorant self has with the Current Logistics map mode is that I find it hard to tell how much supplies are actually needed down a certain road. What I would like to see is a map mode where you can see where your supplies are being consumed (e.g. troops/buildings) and how much they need so that I can properly allocate logistics as I need, and traffic light what I want. This follows to the next point brought up;

4. Change Percent-based Logistics to Absolute Value - I think the current percent-based system of traffic lights doesn't really allow for the full control of how much supplies go in which direction. I'd like to limit by the exact number of logistics I need, so I'm not going over and having it get wasted.

My final thought is I would like to see logistics having the same treatment of other mechanics, where it's not game-ending if you don't get deep into it but at the same time gives opportunities to min/max it and adjust based on your situation in game.


Interesting ideas. I like them. But I do have some counterpoints:

If it was a pull based system what would become of the Truck Station and Supply Base relationship? Right now, as I understand it, the Truck stations add push and the supply bases extend the range. Also, there would be a lot less wasted logistics. I understand that this is could be seen as a benefit. But I also see the downside. The difficulty in optimizing the supply lines is an aspect of the game that adds verisimilitude. And it makes sense considering your first units are a rag tag militia with hand-me-down patchwork gear and hodge podged unit compostions. Should logistics networks in this post-apocalyptic world have easily optimized logistics? Or should a large part of the game be figuring that puzzle out? I personally like puzzles. To me, more puzzles is more better.


I agree with your design values but I don't understand how you apply them here. The logistics challenges in this game do not feel like the realistic supply challenges faced by armies.

The commonplace about logistics being the highest form of warfare is true but it doesn't mean commanders got bogged down in minutiae about road design.

In real life, army quartermasters don't send equal amounts of supply radiating out from every road at the supply base. Eisenhower didn't spend hours fiddling with road supply percentages.


In real life, quartermasters try to end all supplies towards the armies that need them and the problem comes from when armies don't use roads correctly or get supply lines tangled or cut off.

To me, it seems like the game has more versimilitude if you, as commander, don't have micro control over traffic lights. Instead you know the more you crowd armies on a limited road network, the less reliable and slower supply would be.

You could represent that in-game with systems that are almost entirely automated but generate diminishing returns on supply points the more supply points travel the same road and the more unit congestion there is on road. so supplying an army of 3 corps in one place would cost significantly more supplies than supporting 3 corps in opposite directions on the map.

I also don't find this a particularly interesting puzzle. The interesting puzzle is to decide how many supply points each army should get. The puzzle this system introduces is trying to do all of the math to figure out how to get to that optimal supply point allocation. It's a simple math chore that would be better if it was automated. You would give the player an even more focused command problem if you just let the player choose how many supply points each army got, and how much effective supply each army could get varied based on the math.

I assume we have this system in the game because VR wanted this level of complexity, but partially automating this stuff would probably be a huge drain on a one-man team, so it's a rational sacrifice to make.

< Message edited by kaliyama -- 6/12/2020 8:10:27 AM >

(in reply to MarbleToad)
Post #: 189
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/12/2020 10:19:22 AM   
Naselus

 

Posts: 73
Joined: 6/12/2020
Status: offline
Honestly, the main issue is AI road spam, not the logistics system. If you don't have a dozen overlapping chunks of undeletable road spaghetti in your network then sorting the traffic flow is a trivial one-off job for the most part.

(in reply to kaliyama)
Post #: 190
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/12/2020 1:27:29 PM   
Jdane


Posts: 456
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: liq3

Even putting micro aside, there are unavoidable problems the current system creates. If I have exactly the right logistics going to a production building, and the number of workers at the truck station goes down or a military unit use some tiny amount, and now production building isn't producing at 100% even though you could have excessive amounts of spare logistics points available.


I see your point, but the system being what it is, I think one should not try and optimize logistics points this precisely, however necessary it may be felt needed.

It's more prudent to leave some margin of error in case the unexpected happens such as the examples you gave.

Sometimes you realize you need to raise a battalion quick to face an opponent's surprise attack, but oh noes! You only allocated 50 LIS to this road leading to a private mine and you can't.

If you're struggling for supplies, your point is more valid, but that would be a consequence of not having a strong enough logistics infrastructure in the first place.

If it's more of an OCD thing, I sincerely sympathize though.

(in reply to liq3)
Post #: 191
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/12/2020 2:40:38 PM   
Hellkyte

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 6/11/2020
Status: offline
I guess I'm coming in a bit late but I actually really like the logistics system. A true/optimal pull based supply chain system simply isnt a realistic goal. If he could write a code efficient optimizer/simulator for something like that then he should stop making games and go do that instead. Supply chains models are remarkably complex mathematically, usually in the NP-hard/log space for even simple transshipment networks.

I'm still trying to figure out some aspects of this system, but overall I think this is a great implementation.

And honestly I dont know where all the traffic light concerns are coming from. If you built your road network right to begin with it shouldnt be much of a concern. I have something like 1/4 of a large map right now and I think I have something like 10 active traffic lights?

Oh yeah but road delete would be good. AI isnt as great building them

< Message edited by Hellkyte -- 6/12/2020 2:42:37 PM >

(in reply to omzh)
Post #: 192
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/12/2020 3:32:08 PM   
liq3

 

Posts: 23
Joined: 6/12/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellkyte

I guess I'm coming in a bit late but I actually really like the logistics system. A true/optimal pull based supply chain system simply isnt a realistic goal. If he could write a code efficient optimizer/simulator for something like that then he should stop making games and go do that instead. Supply chains models are remarkably complex mathematically, usually in the NP-hard/log space for even simple transshipment networks.

I don't think this is actually true. Assuming OHQ/units are still pulling from the SHQ for the zone they're in a pull system, it's not a computationally complicated problem. Unless I'm missing something?

(in reply to Hellkyte)
Post #: 193
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/12/2020 5:32:38 PM   
Hellkyte

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 6/11/2020
Status: offline
It becomes challenging if you do true trans-shipment. So, let's say the you have 4 cities with an SHQ in the center, and troops all over. A trans-shipment system will require materials to be pulled from all over and distributed between the cities based on their local production output and needs, which , then their products have to be pulled back out in the optimal manner to the different troop locations based on a big ol series of dependencies like road/truck capacity. This starts to look a lot like a classical trans-shipment problem, which are NP-(really)Hard. Keep in mind this isn't some simple hub and spoke model, this is a proper network. There is a lot of research on this topic you could look at. Just google "Transshipment NP hard".

There's also a lot of research on figuring out how to make trans-shipment problems like this simpler, because they are the core of how companies like Amazon work and it is basically impossible to optimize something like that directly due to complexity. So you have lots of folks working on heuristic methods.

Now, granted in a "turn based" environment, some of these things get a lot easier. Not entirely sure what effect that would have, I'll be honest I only studied network optimization a very small amount in grad school (don't tell that to my resume).

I don't entirely understand the current system implemented here that well, but I think it does a pretty good job considering how absolutely brutal a true trans-shipment problem actually is. And that's mostly my point. Doing a true supply chain simulation in this environment is simply not realistic. Let's settle on a decent enough heuristic with low hanging improvements, like road removal, and let's not undersell how challenging supply chain simulations are.

< Message edited by Hellkyte -- 6/12/2020 5:34:17 PM >

(in reply to liq3)
Post #: 194
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/12/2020 5:54:55 PM   
Laiders

 

Posts: 123
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline
Liq3 yes and no. Hellkyte is writing from the perspective of RW logistics network modelling and simulation. That is an immensely difficult problem to perfectly simulate and optimise and such modelling can require what we colloquially call 'supercomputers'.

However, games abstract away almost every variable you need to consider in such models. They are a dramatic simplification, even in the most complex games (otherwise you would need a supercomputer to play your game). Even games literally about logistics or routing problems like Apollo4X (great little puzzle-strategy game to while away time but not sure it really is a 4X) or various factory optimisation games, like Big Pharma or Production Line, are grossly oversimplified compared to the complexity of their actual subject matter.

Thus, Hellkyte swings and utterly misses the point. Completely, totally and utterly. He also ignores the fact that there are games that route supply intelligently (most of them) and there are games that are pull-based (this is much rarer but AEGOD games use this approach for sure).

On that note, please everyone stop referring to intelligent or demand-based routing as a 'pull' system. A 'pull' system is one where you have supply production (at a city usually) that is then pulled along by various depots to finally get to operational depots or the reserves of your troops. A pull system does not guarantee intelligent routing and could probably be built dumb, as Vic's push system is, though the nature of designing a pull system generally means you will also include some automatic optimisation or intelligence. A pull system means that supply naturally moves towards depots at a rate determined by the amount of supply, the spare capacity of the depot and any other factors such as road networks etc. Supply always moves towards depots if it can.

Obviously, the game cannot be switched to a pull system and it is not clear if flipping things would make anything better. However, the game can use intelligent routing to try to optimise supply distribution a little more. At the bare minimum, the game could automatically supply static loads with exactly correct logistics so I don't waste literally hundreds of trucks supplying a mine that happens to be next to my capital and largest truck depot. There will be edge cases were this could be annoying but on the whole it would be much, much easier for players and less grating as you struggle to push supply to distant troops with hundreds of spare trucks you physically cannot reroute.

This optimisation likely cannot and probably should not be perfect. You should still have to prioritise and, if people like setting traffic lights, I'm cool with having to tell the game not to send my truckers to their doom down an empty road built to supply exploration, by the feckless AI or preexisting. I just don't want to have a route 95% blocked and still have a huge amount of waste that I literally cannot optimise any further no matter what I do.

The endless debates about realism need to stop. No game's logistical system is realistic full stop. It would be impossible for any game to have a realistic logistical system. However, personally I regard the current implementation as particularly and peculiarly offensive to any form of realism or common sense with trucks driving off into the desert to their deaths. I'm fine with it because I can tell my lemmings to turn around and come back towards the light. I want to always be able to tell my lemmings to not commit logistical suicide every time because that way my armies don't starve if I cannot grossly over-engineer my logistical system for some reason, like resource scarcity, population scarcity, sheer distance, having to route sub-optimally due to other operational concerns etc. Ideally I would like my truck drivers to act a little more like truck drivers and a little less like lemmings if that is possible. Otherwise I will settle for more precise and gradated routing options.

To think I'd told myself I would be good and stay out of this particular debate.

< Message edited by Laiders -- 6/12/2020 6:32:56 PM >

(in reply to liq3)
Post #: 195
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/12/2020 6:28:49 PM   
DeltaV112

 

Posts: 28
Joined: 10/16/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellkyte

It becomes challenging if you do true trans-shipment. So, let's say the you have 4 cities with an SHQ in the center, and troops all over. A trans-shipment system will require materials to be pulled from all over and distributed between the cities based on their local production output and needs, which , then their products have to be pulled back out in the optimal manner to the different troop locations based on a big ol series of dependencies like road/truck capacity. This starts to look a lot like a classical trans-shipment problem, which are NP-(really)Hard. Keep in mind this isn't some simple hub and spoke model, this is a proper network. There is a lot of research on this topic you could look at. Just google "Transshipment NP hard".

There's also a lot of research on figuring out how to make trans-shipment problems like this simpler, because they are the core of how companies like Amazon work and it is basically impossible to optimize something like that directly due to complexity. So you have lots of folks working on heuristic methods.

Now, granted in a "turn based" environment, some of these things get a lot easier. Not entirely sure what effect that would have, I'll be honest I only studied network optimization a very small amount in grad school (don't tell that to my resume).

I don't entirely understand the current system implemented here that well, but I think it does a pretty good job considering how absolutely brutal a true trans-shipment problem actually is. And that's mostly my point. Doing a true supply chain simulation in this environment is simply not realistic. Let's settle on a decent enough heuristic with low hanging improvements, like road removal, and let's not undersell how challenging supply chain simulations are.

Except there is no such trans-shipment problem in the game. All resource movement is centralized around the SHQ. Goods move from zones to the SHQ, from the SHQ to units, and from the SHQ back to zones. Further, there are only limited supply chains involved in logistics, because many of the resources are actually logistics free. Water, IP, energy all don't cost logistics points to move. Further even in cases where there are, like with fuel, the game automatically keeps reserves in zone stockpiles(and units have similar stockpiles) to smooth over local shifts.

(in reply to Hellkyte)
Post #: 196
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/12/2020 6:31:02 PM   
Hellkyte

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 6/11/2020
Status: offline
I will admit that my experience with games with logistics in it are minimal, so my band of experience is either this game or the RW systems, so there is a very broad gap in between. If there are already better implementations you can find in existing games that would translate easily, shoot go for it.

Quick question though, what did you mean with this example:

quote:

However, the game can use intelligent routing to try to optimise supply distribution a little more. At the bare minimum, the game could automatically supply static loads with exactly correct logistics so I don't waste literally hundreds of trucks supplying a mine that happens to be next to my capital and largest truck depot.


Do you mean that like, if there is a mine out in the middle of nowhere and a road to it, and the only thing that road does is move stuff from the mine to the capital next to it, then it should auto-calc the number of trucks?

(in reply to Laiders)
Post #: 197
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/12/2020 6:44:43 PM   
Laiders

 

Posts: 123
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellkyte

I will admit that my experience with games with logistics in it are minimal, so my band of experience is either this game or the RW systems, so there is a very broad gap in between. If there are already better implementations you can find in existing games that would translate easily, shoot go for it.

Quick question though, what did you mean with this example:

quote:

However, the game can use intelligent routing to try to optimise supply distribution a little more. At the bare minimum, the game could automatically supply static loads with exactly correct logistics so I don't waste literally hundreds of trucks supplying a mine that happens to be next to my capital and largest truck depot.


Do you mean that like, if there is a mine out in the middle of nowhere and a road to it, and the only thing that road does is move stuff from the mine to the capital next to it, then it should auto-calc the number of trucks?



A L1 mine takes 50LP to produce at full rate. The game should not send 400LP down that route. I would like to be able to tell the game manually to not do that or have the game figure it out for itself. Yes I am thinking of isolated mines or other installations. Yes there may need to be a setting to switch this behaviour on and off as necessary due to weird quirky situations.

Mines in the middle of nowhere generally are not wasteful, though they can cause admin strain. They are so far from hubs you can generally use the current traffic lights to filter the LPs down to a reasonable number The problem is mines right next to logistics hubs. Turns out 95% of 4000 is still a very big number. This massive waste gets worse as you improve your logistics network and is a direct factor in some players' logistics problems. It also seems completely unnecessary but maybe fixing it with code would somehow be stupendously expensive or difficult. Other games seem to be able to solve this sort of problem in a reasonable amount of time though and yes implementing this may cause other problems with the system so it may just have to be reversed.

Assuming it is possible on a reasonable CPU/time budget, then I think it would be worth trying. Otherwise, let me set it manually.

I get that supplying armies will always be an exercise of pumping out enough LP and hoping it sorts itself out in the wash with roadblocks as necessary. I'm not asking nor would I want the game to solve logistics for me when it comes to the fun, interesting stuff.

I just want to be given the tools or the assistance necessary to actually be able to build vaguely efficient logistical networks without massive redundant truck depots to account for the suicidal and idiotic truck drivers my regimes always employ.

Seriously, where do they find guys willing to drive hundreds of miles into an empty desert that has been empty for the past two years without loads on their trucks unless there is a giant roadblock physically stopping them?

Worth noting the game can calculate demand changes very quickly already and adjust LP displays dynamically. It does this every time you hit the Preview LP button. I do realise some people have slow preview times and it might be very slow on extra-large or mature games.

< Message edited by Laiders -- 6/13/2020 2:02:04 AM >

(in reply to Hellkyte)
Post #: 198
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/12/2020 6:53:05 PM   
Hellkyte

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 6/11/2020
Status: offline
What if buildings/mines within X hexes of the city could work using natural supply and didnt need a road?

(in reply to Laiders)
Post #: 199
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/12/2020 7:02:23 PM   
Laiders

 

Posts: 123
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline
That would be utterly glorious and a solution I have pondered to myself. This already occurs for units. All buildings could be given organic logistics and, if close enough to a supply route or hub, not actually need main road connections. This along with being able to permanently delete roads would address most of my problems with the logistics system and the rest I can live with.

It is kinda weird that supply can only ever travel down main routes until it gets within X hexes of a unit and suddenly it can teleport to the top of high mountains no problem. Abstracting away minor local road networks as organic logistics would help smooth out that discrepancy.

It could even be that this is limited so that major buildings will eventually always require a road and, by that point, they will actually require a significant amount of LP anyway.

(in reply to Hellkyte)
Post #: 200
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/12/2020 7:30:16 PM   
GodwinW


Posts: 510
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline
It doesn't teleport it actually costs the unit OP to get it.

Also, I like having to build roads to buildings. Makes sense to me.

(in reply to Laiders)
Post #: 201
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/12/2020 7:32:01 PM   
Hellkyte

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 6/11/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DeltaV112


Except there is no such trans-shipment problem in the game. All resource movement is centralized around the SHQ. Goods move from zones to the SHQ, from the SHQ to units, and from the SHQ back to zones. Further, there are only limited supply chains involved in logistics, because many of the resources are actually logistics free. Water, IP, energy all don't cost logistics points to move. Further even in cases where there are, like with fuel, the game automatically keeps reserves in zone stockpiles(and units have similar stockpiles) to smooth over local shifts.



Ah thanks. That right there was something I was curious about, so it really is just a hub and spoke system, but goes in and comes back out.

I was hoping it was more of a hybrid system where each zone could supply people locally based off of local production. I guess that's still doable by the user through setting up multiple SHQs and manually handling shipment between hubs.

< Message edited by Hellkyte -- 6/12/2020 7:38:21 PM >

(in reply to DeltaV112)
Post #: 202
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/12/2020 7:44:54 PM   
Laiders

 

Posts: 123
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

It doesn't teleport it actually costs the unit OP to get it.

Also, I like having to build roads to buildings. Makes sense to me.


OP? What's OP? That's not a game abbreviation I am familiar with yet. Do you mean AP? In which case, I'm not sure you're correct but I would have to check the manual.

Do you like having hundreds of LP wasted in a most unrealistic fashion for no reason? If you like building logistical networks (only in games; never done it as a job so far), like me, you probably don't. The current system with current implementation makes such waste inevitable. I cannot understand why this would be seen as a desirable aspect of the game and I feel it should be adjusted if at all possible, either by giving players finer optimisation tools to do the work ourselves or by getting the game to do some of it for the simplest cases and with a player override option if necessary.

I would be fine with the system being more inefficient in other ways. I actually feel like the game should be adjusted to make you use fuel stations rather than just building a couple of massive truck stations and paved roads. But I don't like this artificial inefficiency especially as those LPs do not represent capacity, as I understand it, but actual, effectively empty or very lightly loaded, trucks driving back and forth. Why would a nation keep sending empty trucks down a road when it needs those trucks elsewhere and has the ability to get those trucks where they are needed? It's nonsensical. I would be fine with it if I were deliberately forcing the behaviour (people will do bizarre things to please tyrants who hold power of life and death over them) but I am actively telling my people not to do it. If the game would let me, I would order every surplus truck driver who dared go down such a road shot until they stopped coming or I ran out of truck drivers.

As a side note, I'd kinda like it if the game design were adjusted so it doesn't force players into using single routes as much as humanly possible. It means player logistical networks tend to be very fragile because game mechanics heavily incentivise having the minimum possible number of routes. As I understand it, more routes equals more waste even if they converge at the same destination but I might be wrong on this.

(in reply to GodwinW)
Post #: 203
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/12/2020 7:49:38 PM   
Falke

 

Posts: 171
Joined: 8/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellkyte
I was hoping it was more of a hybrid system where each zone could supply people locally based off of local production.


A zone only sends any surplus to the HQ ,so if in the zone production=requirement there is no useage of LIS to move goods

(in reply to Hellkyte)
Post #: 204
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/12/2020 8:52:01 PM   
Malevolence


Posts: 1764
Joined: 4/3/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Falke
A zone only sends any surplus to the HQ ,so if in the zone production=requirement there is no useage of LIS to move goods


The zone only sends surplus to the SHQ. Correct.

I believe the zone does use Logistic Points for deliveries within the zone. This is why you must have a Truck station, etc. to form a new city and zone. You cannot, for example, take over a zone with no city. You must seize the hexes with your existing zones.

This only saves the LPs used for a longer trip to the SHQ and then back to original zone.


< Message edited by Malevolence -- 6/12/2020 8:55:02 PM >


_____________________________

Nicht kleckern, sondern klotzen!

*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

(in reply to Falke)
Post #: 205
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/12/2020 9:08:04 PM   
Jdane


Posts: 456
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline
OP would stand for Operational Logistics points such as a unit's.
It's unofficial though as far as I can tell.

(in reply to Malevolence)
Post #: 206
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/12/2020 9:16:52 PM   
Hellkyte

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 6/11/2020
Status: offline
So, let's say I have an army on the the western front, will it try to get supplied from its local zone first before the SHQ?

(in reply to Jdane)
Post #: 207
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/12/2020 9:17:24 PM   
Laiders

 

Posts: 123
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

quote:

ORIGINAL: Falke
A zone only sends any surplus to the HQ ,so if in the zone production=requirement there is no useage of LIS to move goods


The zone only sends surplus to the SHQ. Correct.

I believe the zone does use Logistic Points for deliveries within the zone. This is why you must have a Truck station, etc. to form a new city and zone. You cannot, for example, take over a zone with no city. You must seize the hexes with your existing zones.

This only saves the LPs used for a longer trip to the SHQ and then back to original zone.



You absolutely can have zones with no logistics. I have several villages in my games that have no logistics of their own. They are entirely dependent on logistics supplied by larger settlements nearby. However, I don't think you can create empty zones. I think all new zones must contain a settlement. Then again, why would you even want to try to make an empty zone?

Jdane, surely OL or Op Log would make more sense than OP? :P

As for an Op Log 'cost', I think it was inherent to my original comment that I was both aware of it and was discounting it, for rhetorical effect, as a cost in this situation. This was because I wanted to point out the slight absurdity of supply only ever moving down road. If and only if (iff a philosopher's favourite conditional) a unit is nearby, supply can magically leave roads and enter any damn hex it pleases at quite some range too.

Are the army the only people licensed to drive vehicles off-road in my empire? Can I change the licensing laws? :P


< Message edited by Laiders -- 6/12/2020 9:22:20 PM >

(in reply to Malevolence)
Post #: 208
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/12/2020 9:42:54 PM   
Jdane


Posts: 456
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline
Hellkyte, since if I'm not mistaken a unit only gets its supplies from a SHQ, the answer would be no.

Laiders, I should probably have capitalized Points, but I generally think acronyms are crap, so I'll follow along what the community ends up using while stubbornly keeping on using complete words.
(Except for LIS because it is the holiest of manas.)


< Message edited by Jdane -- 6/12/2020 9:43:13 PM >

(in reply to Laiders)
Post #: 209
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/12/2020 9:55:19 PM   
Laiders

 

Posts: 123
Joined: 6/8/2020
Status: offline
I get that but OP does not indicate logistics. OP would almost seem more like organisational points or something. I guess we should follow the cult of LIS and dub its mysterious lesser manifestation OLIS in recognition of its kinship to the glorious, immanent, divine LIS.

Doesn't really matter. I now understand. Not sure why operational logistics is called that anyway. Surely that would be managed through operational headquarters? Shouldn't organic logistics inherent to a particular sub-unit be called exactly that?

(in reply to Jdane)
Post #: 210
Page:   <<   < prev  5 6 [7] 8 9   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Shadow Empire >> RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess Page: <<   < prev  5 6 [7] 8 9   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.213