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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

 
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/11/2020 1:33:07 AM   
Ayus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

Just wanted to say I am reading this thread and making notes. I do feel there is room for improvement.


Good to know :) So heres my 2 cents:
I havent even finished my first game, but i won my first major war. It was super epic. Actually i was fighting on two fronts. And as i am a noob, i only have a vague idea on how to manage the supply.
First point i wanna make is: I love the overall supply System! So much strategic possibilities. Actually the battle for "Sandersdorf" felt like a battle for Stalingrad and as soon as i took it and with it the supply lines, the main enemy army in the north-east collapsed epicly and i was able to heroically defeat it. Even though a few turns before, that front was on the edge of collapse. It felt really rewarding.

But back to the topic:
My main issue with the system is what some other people already said: The supply to nowhere. I shouldnt have to manage it. Why are my trucks driving into no-mans-land instead to the front? Dont i have some supply-officer thats managing the micro logistics? It doesnt even make sense.

I understand that i would manage the supply with traffic signs if there was two fronts and not enough supplys for both. I understand that i need to order the buildung of truck stations and so on. But i dont get why i gotta micro if the trucks drive into nowhere.

Also i feeld like some units get over-supplied while others starve. I feel like the distribution should also be optimized (by my imaginary logistics-officer) and i shouldnt need to erect traffic signs myself in that case.

Hope the point i wanna make is clear :) The overall system is genius. Just a bit illogical and too micro heave in some aspects.

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/11/2020 2:41:15 AM   
diamondspider

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm
When every drop of water and bite of food is precious (and has been for centuries), you're not going to be shipping stuff willy-nilly all over the place.


++

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Post #: 152
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/11/2020 2:59:59 AM   
Malevolence


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Per the log, is there any case where a split is also not sent? If a split always results in a sent (as I assume), then reduce the log lines by combining "Split and Sent xx Truck Points ..."

Notice in the image, "Split 16 of 30 Truck Points to the South-West." That was the direction received. There is no, "Sent 16 of 30 Truck Points to the South-West." because the split was (15 TPs * 0.40 = 6) to the North and North-East. I assume 18 TP's were lost or was it something else?

Is it possible to add Received, Sent, Used Logistic Points to this log?

Truck Points are the potential, but the LP's are what actually happened during the previous turn calculation.

The Initial, Used, and Current LP can be seen on the map via the Orders Bar (Map Layer), but we are manipulating the Truck Points, not the Logistics Points with Traffic Lights.

I see the most odd behavior with hexes that generate Truck Points. Per the logs, "xxx Logistical Pts using 'Truck' movement have been generated in Hex".

However, even if that hex needs Logistics Points, the log reads, "Sent 770 Truck Points..."

Mixing those two units of measure (LP vs TP) is likely a learning point for players.

I have no idea how "weight" fits into Logistics Points-- I ignore it and hope for the best. The tank requires more logistics points to move than the trooper due to weight.




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< Message edited by Malevolence -- 6/11/2020 3:38:33 AM >


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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/11/2020 3:10:26 AM   
diamondspider

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

The Initial, Used, and Current LP can be seen on the map via the Orders Bar (Map Layer), but we are manipulating the Truck Points, not the Logistics Points with Traffic Lights.



Hmmm... this is good to know, but in reality, when I need replacements, how can I tell where logistical support is available for this?

Your questions here seem to hit the nail on the head. I know that weight has a big impact, because when I try to use strategic movement it is usually extremely limited, and that costs a lot of weight.

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Post #: 154
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/11/2020 3:22:35 AM   
Malevolence


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Remember that you need the available "Current Pts" (LPs) to do player commanded changes like strategic move.

quote:

3.4.1.4. STRATEGIC MOVE MODE
Allows you to transfer a Unit over an unlimited distance providing your Logistical Network has the Logistical Points available to pay for the weight of the Unit.


quote:

5.10.11. REPLACING TROOPS
If it is a Model that is “replaceable” you can select a Troop Type in the SHQ that is of the same Reinforcement Type. It is basically switching equipment around while leaving the Soldiers in place (respectively at SHQ and in the frontline Unit). It is a good way to get newer equipment to highly experienced frontline Units. You need to have enough Logistical Points for this operation. The weight cost of the replaced and the replacing equipment is added up.


... and section 5.11.1.4, "WEIGHT OF CARGO" which covers all the commodities in a table.



I don't know anywhere a ratio of weight to LP is explicitly stated, therefore I assume it is 1:1.

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< Message edited by Malevolence -- 6/11/2020 3:41:13 AM >


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Post #: 155
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/11/2020 3:44:06 AM   
diamondspider

 

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Thank you. I think I am getting bugs here that are confusing me, because I have cases where I am simply wanting to replace dead infantry in multi-stack units and even when their are adjacent to units that can get the replacements, some OHQs will allow replacement and problem one never will. Even if I move units from the bugged OHQ back towards the SHQ it doesn't help and they NEVER allow replacement... so that OHQ either must be bugged or there is something very strange going on that I am not understanding, like the leader of that OHQ has blocked the replacement somehow.

BTW, I use the UPGRADE command to upgrade equipment for infantry, of course you need the logistics to do it. Vehicles can now be replaced to upgrade them, which is great. So far I cannot see the need to use the "first buying troops for the SHQ pool" replacement option because of this.

< Message edited by diamondspider -- 6/11/2020 3:49:33 AM >

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Post #: 156
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/11/2020 4:01:04 AM   
Malevolence


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Notice how the author of this manual section jumbles terms.

quote:

5.11.3.9. Rail Points only Strong Between Stations

The Rail Points are less flexible than your Truck Points and 90% of them [which them? Assume RP?] will only be applied on rail between two Stations. (10% will still be applied to any rail line) [wait 10% of what? RP?]

If you want to economize on your construction costs you can also construct a Railhead Asset, which will function in the same way as a Station, except for the fact it does not add any logistical points [LP? or RPs?] as Stations do. [Don't stations create RPs?]

A railhead is just a place where trains can turn around and have some minor servicing.

Any Hex with Rail Points is a place where the train can stop and offload [LPs]. Or in other words: you do not need a station to offload your trains [LPs]. You need two stations (or one station and one railhead) for Rail Points to be applied on the Rail Hexes between them.


So, two rail stations at either end of a line create RP's and push them out in the same way Truck stations push out TP's. You could use a Rail Head to just push RP's out from one place, but you must have such at either end to use a rail line at all.

The 90% and 10% is incomprehensible to me at least.

Do units get a movement benefit following a rail line? (e.g. Kelly's Heroes)

Does it cost less to build a rail line where a road already exists? ... or less to build a road where a rail line exists?

Be careful, the pathing engine encourages players to follow roads when building a rail line. Based on terrain, this is not always a good idea. Road movement of TPs and units are subject to terrain penalties.

Rail lines are a great way to get LP's over very difficult terrain like High Mountains. RP's suffer no penalties for terrain.

I started as, and still am, a monster map board, counter-pushing wargamer. I'm not suggesting every case written like a SFB rule book, but above quote isn't very good.

As with TP's, RP's are initial points (potential LP's). They are not synonyms.


< Message edited by Malevolence -- 6/11/2020 4:30:22 AM >


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Post #: 157
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/11/2020 4:52:20 AM   
AttuWatcher

 

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I'm fully onboard with the suggestion to make traffic signs so that they allow the player to directly enter a logistics points value instead of a just a few options based on percentages.

There should be much finer gradation of control with the traffic sign values. This is a relatively minor change that can have a big impact for the better.

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/11/2020 4:56:54 AM   
diamondspider

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AttuWatcher
I'm fully onboard with the suggestion to make traffic signs so that they allow the player to directly enter a logistics points value instead of a just a few options based on percentages.


As Malevolence has pointed out, the first question if if the traffic lights deal at all with LPs or only TPs?

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Post #: 159
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/11/2020 5:02:18 AM   
AttuWatcher

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: diamondspider


quote:

ORIGINAL: AttuWatcher
I'm fully onboard with the suggestion to make traffic signs so that they allow the player to directly enter a logistics points value instead of a just a few options based on percentages.


As Malevolence has pointed out, the first question if if the traffic lights deal at all with LPs or only TPs?


That question is purely academic. I'll leave it up to Vic to run the math and the conversions. Currently the player has (a rather limited) ability to already directly modify the values. This is just a change in the way the info is presented and/or converted.

If for some reason it would be far easier for it to remain percentage based, then allow a slider with full 0-100% control similar to the myriad of other sliders we already have for other parts of the game.

Considering how absolutely critically important logistics is it's actually a bit silly that we don't have full 0-100% control of the logistics pipeline.

< Message edited by AttuWatcher -- 6/11/2020 5:08:52 AM >

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/11/2020 5:18:27 AM   
diamondspider

 

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I just read through the entire logistic section again, but this is not what is in fact occurring:

1) It says that all of the values being displayed in the overlays are indeed LPs.
2) This includes "Current LPs".
3) Further, it seems that LPs must always exceed TPs because the structures generate much more of the former. However, as pointed out above, weight could be messing this up because e.g. a truck station gives 1000LP and 100TP, which should be 10 times as much and therefore it will hold true that even at max weight LP>TP, for transport hubs this is not so. The "spreading out" issue can, of course impact this ratio, but how it applies to TP vs LP is completely unclear to me.
4) HOWEVER, all that said, in my current game I can sit with a unit on a hex that shows "Current LPs" of over 700, but a unit that started it's turn on such a hex will tell me that there are zero LP available to get reinforcements.

Therefore, something is very off here.

< Message edited by diamondspider -- 6/11/2020 5:21:24 AM >

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/11/2020 5:48:44 AM   
diamondspider

 

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One possible solution to the puzzle. It could be that the LPs that are showing are coming from different zones. Since only one of my 3 cities has an SHQ, perhaps I am seeing LPs that are not connected with my SHQ, and therefore cannot give me reinforcements via Repl. Troops option. If so, this means that the LP overlays need a filter to show only those connected to the (or a selected) SHQ. What am I missing?

< Message edited by diamondspider -- 6/11/2020 5:49:59 AM >

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/11/2020 6:06:48 AM   
Malevolence


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TPs and RPs are initial points. Traffic signals manage TPs and therefore impact the initial points in each Hex. "Preview Points" map layer is an estimate of those future initial points using only TPs and RPs for analysis.

When the player clicks next turn, the AI takes actions and in so doing may disrupt that preview points estimate. Roads maybe cut, etc. When the AI is complete, the initial points are calculated by summing TPs and RPs in each hex.

I believe the logistic system then uses those summed initial points as the starting basis for LPs in each hex (1:1?). It appears to begin at origins and work its way out debiting LPs as needed and at delivery points--a graph traversal. Logs indicate it begins with zones internally, then surplus is moved to the SHQ, then SHQ ships out to cover zone shortages and items warehoused at the SHQ.

At the beginning of the next turn, when the player again has control, current points (i.e. current LPs) are the LPs that remain unused in each hex after the feasible deliveries were conducted.


< Message edited by Malevolence -- 6/11/2020 6:42:50 AM >


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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/11/2020 6:09:18 AM   
Malevolence


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quote:

ORIGINAL: diamondspider
4) HOWEVER, all that said, in my current game I can sit with a unit on a hex that shows "Current LPs" of over 700, but a unit that started it's turn on such a hex will tell me that there are zero LP available to get reinforcements.

Therefore, something is very off here.


Check to see if there is a break in the line from the SHQ to that delivery point. I would bet there is a break--hexes with no (i.e. zero) or very few current points on the route.

I believe there are not enough LP's to cover delivery from the SHQ to the delivery point.

I also think this issue happens during the automatic deliveries in between the player's command period. If your SHQ has a "bottleneck", supplies will not be delivered despite LP's in hexes nearby to recipients.

The initial points indicated it should work, but all the LP's were used farther up the chain between your intended recipient and the SHQ. Once a hex drops to zero LPs, the supply chain is broken at that point. Also, I assume, if the chain is to weak to carry the weight, the chain is ostensibly broken for those items.

< Message edited by Malevolence -- 6/11/2020 6:27:48 AM >


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Post #: 164
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/11/2020 6:45:34 AM   
diamondspider

 

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Thank you. I think this covers most of the issues that I am having, except the apparently bugged OHQ that apparently the SHQ commander hates so he refuses to send him reinforcements no matter what ;)

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/11/2020 6:51:53 AM   
Malevolence


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Have you tried to directly upgrade the lousy starting troops you get in your SHQ with your new super troopers yet? Why shouldn't the SHQ have elite troopers ready to deploy?

Despite indicating it works; the next turn the SHQ either still has those starting rejects or gets angry and uses non-upgrade militia troops instead.

Yes, I checked that units would accept the rejects too, just to move them out.


< Message edited by Malevolence -- 6/11/2020 6:55:22 AM >


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Post #: 166
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/11/2020 7:21:21 AM   
diamondspider

 

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I marched right up to near the SHQ, waited a turn, and then the first thing I did was try to recruit and no luck. I then created troops in city and was able to transfer them over into the bugged unit. I think what bugged this entire OHQ was that I tried UPGRADE on it hoping I could apply my shiny new automatic rifles to my troops. Instead, this changed it to a regiment level OHQ rather than brigade. I think quickly switched it back... perhaps it doesn't like a commander who can't make up his mind ;)

In any case, I was looking to win the game but lost both of my top commanders in one turn and my line crumbed with the newbies in charge of it. So time to roll a new world and apply all that I've learned from my game as well as you terrific fellow travelers on this forum. So thanks!

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/11/2020 7:25:52 AM   
Malevolence


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you have to click on the little pictures inside the unit report to get the model upgrade screen.

that's also the only way ive found to deploy both anti-infantry and anti-tank variants of my standard tank chassis into units. It will only use the last design to form a unit.

It wastes a lot of resources to use that work-around.


< Message edited by Malevolence -- 6/11/2020 7:31:16 AM >


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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/11/2020 12:29:25 PM   
mithrasoflego

 

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Obviously I'm really late to this but some observations that I don't think have been fully explored yet.

1) KingHalford has mentioned a demand based system requiring a lot of AI on the part of major regimes. This would not be the case. Per the manual Major AI factions have infinite Logistical Points (LIP?) and Range. This brings up two issues. The AI does not interact with the current push system beyond the extent that their units need to be able to draw a line to a road, this means that the current system is likely to complex to automate in a satisfactory way. It also means that a sufficiently intelligent rework might bring the AI closer to a human level of play (i.e. playing by the same rules) I believe this would be an unqualified good. Whether it is worth the programming time or processing power is a separate issue (Getting the AI to a point where it could avoid road spam would be especially nice)

2) A push based system should not reduce the decision making space overmuch. The main decision making strength of the logistics system comes in prioritising limited resources. If you can cheaply solve any given problem by building a truck stop then I'd argue that you aren't using the system in way that requires decision making in any meaningful way. At the moment the main decisions I have made regarding the logistics system is where to move next based on my logistics capacity and whether branching off a road to build an asset is worth the extra administrative effort on my part (Call it PPP or player political points). I don't think a pull system would invalidate the first choice and I feel the second choice, isn't a fun one (can I be bothered to take on the additional hassle of doing this thing for the advantage it gives me is a pretty poor choice, especially when the private economy constructs its own road to the asset of it's own accord anyway.)

3)I have to admit I've not yet come across the decision making space given by having scarce resources. That said, I believe a pull based system would allow you to make these decisions in a much cleaner way, especially given that the major variable factor are military formations. I personally like ATGs system for prioritising HQs, and if you really wanted you could apply it to assets as well (although on off works just as well here) Under a pull system with such a priority you would need to identify which OHQs were in need of the most supplies, prioritise them to high and carry on with your life. Under the Current system I would identify the units, then I would follow the supply system back, tweaking stop signs as I go, until I believed they had enough supply. I hope this shows that both systems leave the player with the same interesting choices but that a pull system might make that choice simpler to make. It's a question of not mistaking complexity for depth.

That said I would be very much interested in meaningful decisions made in the current system that might not be possible to make under a hypothetical new system.

4) As an aside, I would like to commend this game on the range of scenarios it produces. I'm pretty green and haven't even had my first war with a major yet. However I can see from my numerous restarts that different planets demand different ways to approach the game and ask different ways to run your empire. I believe this is a large part in people not seeing the various problems and opportunities inherent in the current supply systems.

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/11/2020 12:30:17 PM   
Kamelpov

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

Have you tried to directly upgrade the lousy starting troops you get in your SHQ with your new super troopers yet? Why shouldn't the SHQ have elite troopers ready to deploy?

Despite indicating it works; the next turn the SHQ either still has those starting rejects or gets angry and uses non-upgrade militia troops instead.

Yes, I checked that units would accept the rejects too, just to move them out.


You want elite unit right at the start well recruit as reinforcement the whole formation let it alone in the hq gaining xp until you create the formation. Usually Once they look like regular i recruit them right away or use it trained reinforcement as they get drained.

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/11/2020 2:38:54 PM   
MarbleToad

 

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Proto-civs not wasting resources isnt the same thing as the difficulties in getting supplies to the front lines. In the current system, the resources arent technically wasted. Building too many truck stations? Thats wasteful. But can be avoided by careful tweaking of the systems as is.

In the end, I dont really care whether it is a push or pull system. I personally like the push, but pull would be fine too.

But, a system that completely removes the difficulties of logistics, which, mind you, is the number one problem all armies have faced in every era since the beginning of warfare, reduces the fun for me. If the logistics puzzle is replaced with a simple and efficient system where I "set it and forget it," an aspect of the game which I enjoy will be removed because others find it less than enjoyable.

Now, if this pull system requires me to think about resources every turn and requires me to adjust it at least every other turn, Id be cool with it.

And, tbh, I dont have to tweak the logistics every turn in the current system unless Im making a massive invasion, consolidating conquered territory, or strapped for resources early game. So, I guess, if the game at bare minimum forced me to look at logistics and tweak them under those same circumstances, Id be ok with changes that helped improve the experience for those who have different tastes in mechanics.

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/11/2020 3:24:09 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarbleToad
But, a system that completely removes the difficulties of logistics, which, mind you, is the number one problem all armies have faced in every era since the beginning of warfare, reduces the fun for me. If the logistics puzzle is replaced with a simple and efficient system where I "set it and forget it," an aspect of the game which I enjoy will be removed because others find it less than enjoyable.

Now, if this pull system requires me to think about resources every turn and requires me to adjust it at least every other turn, Id be cool with it.

Thanks for your perspective. To me at least, however, there is a vast gulf between a system that "completely removes the difficulties of logistics" (which as far as I can tell no one is actually asking for), and one that requires me to check, much less tweak, the routes of every truck convoy in my empire every turn (which to me is extremely tedious).

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/11/2020 3:29:14 PM   
KingHalford

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarbleToad
But, a system that completely removes the difficulties of logistics, which, mind you, is the number one problem all armies have faced in every era since the beginning of warfare, reduces the fun for me. If the logistics puzzle is replaced with a simple and efficient system where I "set it and forget it," an aspect of the game which I enjoy will be removed because others find it less than enjoyable.

Now, if this pull system requires me to think about resources every turn and requires me to adjust it at least every other turn, Id be cool with it.

Thanks for your perspective. To me at least, however, there is a vast gulf between a system that "completely removes the difficulties of logistics" (which as far as I can tell no one is actually asking for), and one that requires me to check, much less tweak, the routes of every truck convoy in my empire every turn (which to me is extremely tedious).


Still waiting to see some evidence that this is either necessary or even happening. I say again, if you're having to micromanage your traffic lights every turn, you're doing something wrong.

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Post #: 173
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/11/2020 3:29:53 PM   
KingHalford

 

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I think allowing the player to remove roads somehow would go a long way to fixing this issue without having to automate one of the more fun parts of the game.

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/11/2020 3:55:43 PM   
GodwinW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mithrasoflego
(...)
At the moment the main decisions I have made regarding the logistics system is where to move next based on my logistics capacity (...)


I love how terrain, and difficulty (or ease of) building roads shapes my borders and where I go. It's such great fun to play a game in which terrain matters so much. It feels realistic and you get really interesting situations and bottlenecks etc.

Just throwing that out here (it doesn't really involve the discussion) because that part of your post made me realize it :)

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/11/2020 4:09:42 PM   
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I'm slowly crawling the message history because each message consumes a significant amount of my limited brain power, but about Malevolence's comment on the puzzling 900 / 100 split of rail points, I'd wager it's related to the fact that units can get supplies (and maybe replacements ?) from any point along the rail line, although from a tiny fraction of the total of logistic points which you only take advantage of when building either a rail head or a rail station.

(Hence 900 -> only to the head or station, 100 -> available anywhere to organic logistics of a unit.)

But admittedly that's half a guess.

< Message edited by Jdane -- 6/11/2020 4:10:06 PM >

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/11/2020 5:07:23 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford
Still waiting to see some evidence that this is either necessary or even happening. I say again, if you're having to micromanage your traffic lights every turn, you're doing something wrong.

Actually, I'm not saying that I'm doing this...I was responding to MarbleToad's point that this is the level of logistical detail that he enjoys. More power to him, but it's not for me.

(in reply to KingHalford)
Post #: 177
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/12/2020 1:19:40 AM   
GodwinW


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You know.. the problem that's so nicely solved here is that with a 'pull' or 'on demand' system it becomes a good idea to spam roads everywhere.
I seriously dislike this in other games. The most efficient thing? Roads upon roads in every hex.

So just alone that part of the current system which *really* makes you care about where you build roads and when and where you branch them makes it totally worth it to me.

This is also an argument for why destroying roads shouldn't be cheap. In fact they may even need to be more expensive than building them, I'm thinking now. Because later on you have quite a lot of IP and you'll otherwise be adding and deleting roads every turn on TOP of the current logistics system to micromanage stuff.

Maybe even roads not being removable at all is Vic's solution to that. If that stays the way it is then I do really hope the AI will not spam roads and will build them only pretty rarely.
But no, I do still think they should be removable, I just think it should cost quite a bit. Maybe double the cost of building a dirt road?

Hmm.

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 178
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/12/2020 1:35:31 AM   
diamondspider

 

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The AI rat's-nest roads are most of the problem here from a tedium perspective. The bigger issue is how complicated it is to understand things like "the amount of current LP in a hex has no substantial relation to the amount of LP you can get from a given SHQ"... the conceptual problem is pretty severe. I think I understand it all now, but those overlays are mostly confusing and easily misleading. A new overlay that allows filtering by selected SHQ supply would be nice, and make that the default. Yes, shuffling resources around in general is important, but I find that the logistics involved in keeping my battle lines in supply is key and I have yet to see how to determine this with existing overlays.

I don't agree that removing roads should be expensive. I do agree that if he wants to make them non-removable making the traffic lights and overlays better, and especially reducing the AI road spam (may be difficult) is a fine alternative.

(in reply to GodwinW)
Post #: 179
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/12/2020 1:51:03 AM   
Malevolence


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How about unused "dirt roads" fade away over time?

So you can delete roads by strangling them off with a traffic sign.

Sealed roads are permanent.




< Message edited by Malevolence -- 6/12/2020 1:53:35 AM >


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(in reply to diamondspider)
Post #: 180
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