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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

 
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 3:34:39 PM   
KingHalford

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willgamer

An interesting facet of the game is its unprecedented interactions of dynamic subsystems that are static in most games.

Using LIS as an example (there are dozens of others), there are the interactions of-

* the static demand of assets with the dynamic draw of troops moving through

* the static demand of assets increasing as upgrades are performed

* the increasing need for truck and supply depots with the need to build new cities to prevent administrative strain

* the dynamic nature of administrative strain as it includes private assets you don't control, but must build LIS for

* as LIS assets expand more people (may be limited in number) are needed to staff them

Bottom Line: a massive number of things would need to change if LIS were fundamentally altered.


Keep LIS with tweaks (delete roads) to make it better.


This is great, I might have to quote this when I do a follow up article to give the game a final rating Will. It accurately sums up something I couldn't really describe about how this system operates.

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 3:38:05 PM   
AttuWatcher

 

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It's not that bad. It just needs to have the free AI roads for majors problem improved / changed / removed and there won't be so much of the big bad scary road spaghetti.

If deleting roads were to be added, deleting each segment should cost the same as building it, and it could possibly be tied to a tech that needs to be researched like "Demolition Engineers" or something.

Overall I actually like the system, but any system that has a great deal of complexity and player control will be a point of obsession for min/maxers.

< Message edited by AttuWatcher -- 6/10/2020 3:40:13 PM >

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 5:09:06 PM   
GodwinW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW

I do not like introducing a cost to it as it would probably become prohibitive or doesn't do much, depending on your game's scale. It doesn't scale well.
Also, you'd almost need a 'trial system' then because I could be fiddling with signs a bit: is 80% good, or 95% good? Now I doubled my cost. I'd feel bad for just fiddling.
So no.

But I do really understand your point and it's a great point.

Just not sure if it's a great point for this system.

Let me think...

Ok, what I can see is a building called 'Logistics Manager Training Center'. Can only be built in hexes with an SHQ.
Every turn that there are 0 black bottlenecks the Logistics Managers there get xp.
After a number of turns from having the building operational (maybe 25? could maybe scale with map size or speed setting), they graduate and under the Governor's Zone you can set 'Appoint Logistics Manager' (it's a tick box).

Now all Logistics of that zone are handled perfectly.

It saves you the trouble of dealing with older zones that don't really have your focus anyway. Newer zones (newer SHQ's) still need to be managed though.
Balance can be done by building cost, xp gain, xp gain constraints, xp requirement to 'graduate', appointment cost even if that's desired. Lots of knobs.

Cost/upkeep should be high enough so that people like me can still micromanage ourselves and save a non-trivial amount of resources.

The only problem I see here is that it might be very difficult to program a system that handles logistics 100% efficiently, because if that was easy Vic would have definitely done so for the AI!


What did you think of this idea as an alternative to what you proposed, KingHalford?

And just to add my voice to willgamer's post: yes! Roads definitely need to be able to be removed.

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 5:18:23 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AttuWatcher
If deleting roads were to be added, deleting each segment should cost the same as building it, and it could possibly be tied to a tech that needs to be researched like "Demolition Engineers" or something.

Why over-engineer this? "Deleting" roads should be as simple to putting up a barricade in front of it with a "ROAD CLOSED" sign--it's not rocket science.

I'm still just getting into the game, but at this point it seems to me like if the easiest way to get supplies to the right place is to destroy roads, there is something wrong....

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 5:27:03 PM   
GodwinW


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I want it for aesthetics. You can do exactly what you say: put a traffic sign on the road and voila.

But it still can be nice to remove unwanted roads from an aesthetics point of view and also deleting some roads permanently may make it easier (less traffic signs to check up on).

I don't think it should be costly. I think it may even be fine if it was free. Just let nature take over.

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 5:31:40 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW
I want it for aesthetics. You can do exactly what you say: put a traffic sign on the road and voila.

But it still can be nice to remove unwanted roads from an aesthetics point of view and also deleting some roads permanently may make it easier (less traffic signs to check up on).

Sure, I understand the desire to remove unwanted roads from the game map. But that doesn't mean that that should represent--in game terms--that the roads are physically torn up from start to finish.

Removing roads from the game map should be instantaneous and free--as easy as putting up "road closed" barriers at each end of the removed road.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 6/10/2020 5:32:49 PM >

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 5:32:27 PM   
Dampfnudel

 

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Considering the amount of replies I think I started the right topic.

Basically we all can agree that it is great to have a logistical system in the game, using Capacity and Range.

Vic please give us a pull/demand based system without traffic signs needed (but allowed).


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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 5:41:01 PM   
GodwinW


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That's why I said it can maybe be free. The only problem with that is temporary incursion into an enemy human player's area to quickly delete some roads and then withdraw which is a bit of a pain.

To Dampfnudel: that's not at all the conclusion we came to or agree on ;)

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 5:47:39 PM   
willgamer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dampfnudel


Vic please give us a pull/demand based system without traffic signs needed (but allowed).




NOT agreed!


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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 6:00:44 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW
The only problem with that is temporary incursion into an enemy human player's area to quickly delete some roads and then withdraw which is a bit of a pain.

As long as you can only destroy roads in hexes that you control, I don't see why this is unrealistic either--with a little bit of basic explosives in the right spot, a unit could quickly and easily damage a road to the point where it would be temporarily unusable as a transport route.

That said, if Vic adds the ability to "destroy" roads in this manner, it would make sense to add a "repair road" option as well, which would be quicker and cheaper than building a whole new road.

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 6:02:02 PM   
AttuWatcher

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: AttuWatcher
If deleting roads were to be added, deleting each segment should cost the same as building it, and it could possibly be tied to a tech that needs to be researched like "Demolition Engineers" or something.

Why over-engineer this? "Deleting" roads should be as simple to putting up a barricade in front of it with a "ROAD CLOSED" sign--it's not rocket science.


Has nothing to do with over-engineering. Things that are free get exploited, especially in games that have multiplayer. Building roads is not free, destroying should not be free either. There needs to be a cost.

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 6:13:18 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AttuWatcher
Has nothing to do with over-engineering. Things that are free get exploited, especially in games that have multiplayer. Building roads is not free, destroying should not be free either. There needs to be a cost.

OK, well in my opinion, this is practically the definition of over-engineering:
--Supplies are distributed by road regardless of how much demand lies down that road.
--So to keep supplies flowing in the right direction, you have to destroy roads.
--To destroy roads, even though they could in reality be closed as transport routes quickly and easily, because roads are quick and free to construct, they should not be quick and free to destroy.

So you end up with a bizarre, convoluted, tedious logistics systems which depends to a large degree on destroying roads in an artificially difficult manner. Is that where we want to go with this?

Could one of you that likes the current system lay out your reasons for preferring it over a pull-based system? From what I've seen above, the main argument has simply been that is more complicated, but so far I'm not seeing why that is a positive?

< Message edited by 76mm -- 6/10/2020 6:16:49 PM >

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 6:40:39 PM   
AttuWatcher

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm
because roads are quick and free to construct, they should not be quick and free to destroy.

So you end up with a bizarre, convoluted, tedious logistics systems which depends to a large degree on destroying roads in an artificially difficult manner. Is that where we want to go with this?


Roads are only free for the AI. You are actually implying that the human player should be treated the same as the AI?

Bizarre, tedious, and convoluted is your opinion. I don't share it. Unless Vic is able to do some kind of miracle that we are not aware of, starting from scratch with a whole new demand / magnetic logistic system is simply not an option, or at the very least, a massive expenditure that is probably misguided.

The current system is not that bad, It just needs two major improvements.
1. AI can not be allowed to build roads for free. Leave that up to Vic to decide how to ameliorate that.
2. Roads need to be delete-able for a variety of reason: To limit future micro with road signs, to clean up your own roads that you no longer need or that cause problems, or built by accident, to clean up any roads built by other factions (or players) that you don't need and that cause problems, and generally to give the player permanent, long-lasting control over the road network which directly translates to permanent and long-lasting control over the character of the logistics network.



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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 6:42:26 PM   
KingHalford

 

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I'm repeating myself now, I laid this out in depth above, but if you automate one of the most unique, innovative and fun parts of this game then you're mostly removing the players control over it aside from positioning stations and bases. The traffic light system isn't a problem unless you're engaging in some autistic constant micromanagement on a turn by turn basis to squeeze out an extra LIS point here and there, in which case you should just be building more Truck stations, because by the point of the game that such micro might a problem (mid-late game) you've either got the resources to place an extra base or you're going to lose.

There's also a clear paradigm in games design to either hide automated systems from the player's view or to remove it entirely and there's a solid reason for that.

Furthermore, go ask anybody who still holds a torch for pre-2.0 Stellaris about how they feel to have features removed from a game they paid money for and see how they respond. Paradox might never recover their reputation over that.

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 6:49:34 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AttuWatcher
Roads are only free for the AI. You are actually implying that the human player should be treated the same as the AI?

Actually, I implied no such thing. I've said that roads should be able to be destroyed for free, for the reasons explained above.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AttuWatcher
1. AI can not be allowed to build roads for free. Leave that up to Vic to decide how to ameliorate that.

OK, but presumably if this were easy it would already have been done.

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 7:08:55 PM   
jwarrenw13

 

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Why would it be easier to delete a road than to put up a traffic sign, which symbolically stands for a physical road block or traffic control measure?

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 7:20:20 PM   
ramnblam

 

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This topic is getting heated haha. I mentioned earlier in the thread a compromise. The ability to direct one of your councils to optimise your current logistic network based on demand for BPs. The current manual controls still in place for the really anal min/maxers. What do you guys think?

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 7:30:28 PM   
Nemo84

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

I'm repeating myself now, I laid this out in depth above, but if you automate one of the most unique, innovative and fun parts of this game then you're mostly removing the players control over it aside from positioning stations and bases. The traffic light system isn't a problem unless you're engaging in some autistic constant micromanagement on a turn by turn basis to squeeze out an extra LIS point here and there, in which case you should just be building more Truck stations, because by the point of the game that such micro might a problem (mid-late game) you've either got the resources to place an extra base or you're going to lose.

There's also a clear paradigm in games design to either hide automated systems from the player's view or to remove it entirely and there's a solid reason for that.

Furthermore, go ask anybody who still holds a torch for pre-2.0 Stellaris about how they feel to have features removed from a game they paid money for and see how they respond. Paradox might never recover their reputation over that.


Positioning truck stations and supply bases is the entire depth of the current logistics system. You yourself keep advocating "spam more trucks" as the solution to every logistics problem in this thread. I cannot tell my logistics system to prioritize a certain resource, I cannot tell it to prioritize a certain unit or to deliver all tanks before starting infantry replacements. It's a good system, but it doesn't really involve many actual gameplay decisions right now. It does involve a lot of needless busywork because it is utterly devoid of any intelligence.

Does the traffic light system currently add meaningful gameplay or strategic decisions? No, it's mostly used for blocking up side roads so they don't drain your logistics for absolutely no reason. Automating that stuff removes no depth, it merely removes needless micromanagement. You can still keep the traffic light system for the rare few situations where you actually need a real decision on which part of the logistics network to prioritize.

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 7:31:20 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13
Why would it be easier to delete a road than to put up a traffic sign, which symbolically stands for a physical road block or traffic control measure?

You mean in game terms or "in real life"? In games terms I think people would like to be able to remove some of the AI-spam-roads from the map, both for aesthetic reasons and to simplify the logistic process.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 6/10/2020 7:56:34 PM >

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 7:35:05 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford
I'm repeating myself now, I laid this out in depth above, but if you automate one of the most unique, innovative and fun parts of this game then you're mostly removing the players control over it aside from positioning stations and bases.

Thanks for your perspective. From my perspective, the best way to give the players control over logistics would be to set supply priorities on the end-user side. Personally I don't consider the current system "fun".

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo84
Does the traffic light system currently add meaningful gameplay or strategic decisions? No, it's mostly used for blocking up side roads so they don't drain your logistics for absolutely no reason. Automating that stuff removes no depth, it merely removes needless micromanagement. You can still keep the traffic light system for the rare few situations where you actually need a real decision on which part of the logistics network to prioritize.

+1

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 7:36:04 PM   
KingHalford

 

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I think it can be fun to tailor your logistics system that way, and I doubt that Vic ever intended for people to be mix-maxing it to the point that they hated it but that always happens when you allow such micromanagement without any cost attached.

Anyway, I think the positions have been laid out now and I won't bang on about it. I highly doubt such a fundamental change can or will be made at this stage and I still hold a strong suspicion that a pull based system would be horrifically resource intensive on an already high-cost game. But hopefully Vic can see this discussion and decide if he thinks something needs to be done or not. I vote no, there's nothing wrong with it, but I like tinkering with stuff like that. Other people don't and there's no accounting for taste.

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 7:37:57 PM   
KingHalford

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo84


quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

I'm repeating myself now, I laid this out in depth above, but if you automate one of the most unique, innovative and fun parts of this game then you're mostly removing the players control over it aside from positioning stations and bases. The traffic light system isn't a problem unless you're engaging in some autistic constant micromanagement on a turn by turn basis to squeeze out an extra LIS point here and there, in which case you should just be building more Truck stations, because by the point of the game that such micro might a problem (mid-late game) you've either got the resources to place an extra base or you're going to lose.

There's also a clear paradigm in games design to either hide automated systems from the player's view or to remove it entirely and there's a solid reason for that.

Furthermore, go ask anybody who still holds a torch for pre-2.0 Stellaris about how they feel to have features removed from a game they paid money for and see how they respond. Paradox might never recover their reputation over that.


Positioning truck stations and supply bases is the entire depth of the current logistics system. You yourself keep advocating "spam more trucks" as the solution to every logistics problem in this thread. I cannot tell my logistics system to prioritize a certain resource, I cannot tell it to prioritize a certain unit or to deliver all tanks before starting infantry replacements. It's a good system, but it doesn't really involve many actual gameplay decisions right now. It does involve a lot of needless busywork because it is utterly devoid of any intelligence.

Does the traffic light system currently add meaningful gameplay or strategic decisions? No, it's mostly used for blocking up side roads so they don't drain your logistics for absolutely no reason. Automating that stuff removes no depth, it merely removes needless micromanagement. You can still keep the traffic light system for the rare few situations where you actually need a real decision on which part of the logistics network to prioritize.


Just to set the record straight here, I said "build more trucks" not "spam more trucks", there's a strong distinction between those two things :)

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 7:56:35 PM   
jwarrenw13

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13
Why would it be easier to delete a road than to put up a traffic sign, which symbolically stands for a physical road block or traffic control measure?

You mean in game terms or "in real life"? In games terms I think people would like to be able to remove some of the AI-spam-roads from the map, both for aesthetic reasons and to simply the logistic process.


In game terms I don't see how removing a road rather than placing a road block simplifies the logistic process since it would seem to take about the same amount of effort. As for aesthetic purposes, I'm not sure a see that as a factor in game play. However, the idea that the AI is allowed to build too many roads seems to be a legitimate point. My only concern there would be ensuring that anything reducing any AI advantage is balanced against making the AI too passive and too easy to defeat. I would assume Vic is looking at this thread and considering the discussions.

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 8:02:11 PM   
KingHalford

 

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Now we're having this bloody argument on eXplorminate's Discord.

I'm gonna copy/paste something I said there because it might highlight the issue from a certain perspective.

"I agree that using it to cut off supply from roads is busywork, but the cost of removing that would be to take the agency from the player in sculpting the logistics himself, and leaving much of the system to automation
and you know, that's how all the other games do it, if you're gonna automate it, just fully automate it and have done with it and then we've got Operational Art of War with a sci-fi vibe

Let me use a more obvious example to illustrate this point:

Total War: Warhammer has a problem. The RTS combat is amazing but the auto resolve sucks.
This means that if you want to really optimise your performance in that game you feel forced to fight every battle yourself.
Now, you don't HAVE to, the game is designed so you don't, but people do because they want to lose less troops than they would with autocombat
So is the answer to remove the RTS combat just to have the game automate it?
No
Same with Shadow Empires traffic light system, and I'd argue that the issue with Warhammer is WAY worse.
Now, some people don't like that RTS system so they might see no problem in removing it but the people who do like it will be unhappy.
Same with Shadow Empire here"


< Message edited by KingHalford -- 6/10/2020 8:03:57 PM >


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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 8:18:09 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford
"I agree that using it to cut off supply from roads is busywork, but the cost of removing that would be to take the agency from the player in sculpting the logistics himself, and leaving much of the system to automation...

I don't really agree with your conclusion that the only options are the current system or to take logistics out players' hands by simply automating the whole system.

As discussed above, a "pull" system would also allow players to "sculpt the logistics", and I'm not sure why it would be more resource-intensive, because it seems like it would be pretty similar to the current system, only flowing in the opposite direction?

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 8:21:49 PM   
KingHalford

 

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I guess because there has to be some calculation as to what to pull where. Right now I'm fairly sure there's a simple algorithm that splits the available LIS each time it hits a branch unless there's a traffic light in place. Remember the game usually has in excess of 50+ AI factions over 170x60 hexes (and that's Normal-Large, not even the highest setting) so you're crunching a horrific amount of data each turn.

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 8:23:00 PM   
KingHalford

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford
"I agree that using it to cut off supply from roads is busywork, but the cost of removing that would be to take the agency from the player in sculpting the logistics himself, and leaving much of the system to automation...

I don't really agree with your conclusion that the only options are the current system or to take logistics out players' hands by simply automating the whole system.

As discussed above, a "pull" system would also allow players to "sculpt the logistics", and I'm not sure why it would be more resource-intensive, because it seems like it would be pretty similar to the current system, only flowing in the opposite direction?


You're right, there's certainly more options than this. Someone on our discord came up with the idea of different road types that work differently... inelegant in my eyes but it's at least a different idea :)

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 8:54:05 PM   
DTurtle

 

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I like the idea of different road types.

Right now there are already two types: Dirt roads and sealed road.

So something along the line of: If a dirt road branches off of a sealed road, then only 5% or so of the truck points are split off to the dirt road and 95% keeps going on the sealed road.
That makes it possible to reduce the amount of necessary micromanagement. If you want to really get the optimum of your road system, you can still use the traffic signs. If you don't want to, simply build sealed roads along the major arteries and be done with it. It also makes it a lot easier on people new to the game - simply tell them to build sealed roads between their cities.

That also works for advancing into enemy territory: If you want to reduce the effect of the dirt road spawn of AIs, build sealed roads along your main advance.

Obviously, this problem would also be reduced if the AI would simply stop spamming dirt roads for free everywhere - something that is planned (IIRC), but is not that simple.

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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 9:06:26 PM   
Destragon

 

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I'm a little late on this, looking at how this is already page 4, but I want to say that I absolutely agree with the original complaint. The issue isn't necessarily the supply system itself, it's specifically just the traffic lights. The traffic lights are probably the one thing that I don't like about this game.

Here are what I think are the problems:

1: The reason you need to fiddle around with these traffic lights is because otherwise your logistics straight up get wasted. The more optimally you want to play, the more fiddling is required. This is probably the only area in the game where that is the case. Everywhere else, the game does a pretty good job in disincentivising min-maxing. I don't agree with the "you don't NEED to do it" argument, because, well sometimes you really do need to do it, but besides that, this is a game with a victory condition, and if you want to win, you are kinda expected to play optimally. Especially if you play multiplayer. Playing optimally should NEVER be tedious. Tediousness is not how you disincentivise min-maxing.

2: The settings that you have access to to limit the flow of logistics are only percentages. This makes it really confusing to set up a supply route to a destination where you know how many logistics points you're gonna need. For example, if you have a mine that wants 100 logistics points, you need to calculate what kinda percentage you should be blocking instead of just saying "let 100 points through". It turns the process into a bit of trial and error guesswork to achieve what you actually intend to do.

3: When a building is upgraded, either by you or by civilians, it will require more logistical points, meaning you need to go back to problem 2 and again calculate how many points are needed and manually update your traffic lights.

4: When civilians decide to build a building somewhere, which attaches onto an existing road, they now suddenly caused half the supplies that were heading along that road to be diverted. Without ANY notification of it happening, as far as I know. This is a huge deal. The civilians might have just cut the supply that your front line troops depended on in half, while the new building is getting WAY more supplies than it's ever gonna need. If you don't notice this early, you're gonna lose some soldiers.

5: If you want to limit the productivity of a building, you have to do it two-fold right now. You have to reduce its actual productivity, and then you have to set up traffic lights to prevent those freed up logistics from being wasted.

My suggestion off of the top of my head would be something like this:
If a new building is built or an existing building upgraded, and there is no traffic light yet, then the game should automatically set up a traffic light on the road leading to the location tile, and this traffic light should be set so that it only lets exactly as many logistics points through as are needed by all the buildings on the tile/road. If there already was a traffic light, then that traffic light should automatically be adjusted to the new logistics demand. The traffic light should also get updated when you change the productivity of a building.
The game would have to be able to figure out the origin of the logistics that are headed for the building and then find the location of the closest (to the building) fork in the road where a traffic light could be placed.
If this only gets checked when buildings are built or when productivity is updated, then I don't think it would be a performance problem.
It might be best if these automatic traffic lights were separate from the player's own traffic lights in some way. What I mean with that is, if the game sets up an automatic traffic light to let 100 logistics points reach a building, then the player should still have the ability to pump additional logistics down that road, without affecting the automatic traffic light. The automatic traffic light in that case would ensure that at least as many supplies get through that road as the buildings need.

An alternative solution would be to let players manually sync up traffic lights to certain tiles, and then those sync'd lights would automatically let as many logistics through as the buildings in those selected tiles need.

Also, note that I don't mention anything about automating the traffic lights for units. My problems are entirely about the logistics used by buildings.

< Message edited by Destragon -- 6/10/2020 9:11:48 PM >

(in reply to KingHalford)
Post #: 119
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/10/2020 9:19:09 PM   
gilith

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 2/15/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

Now we're having this bloody argument on eXplorminate's Discord.

I'm gonna copy/paste something I said there because it might highlight the issue from a certain perspective.

"I agree that using it to cut off supply from roads is busywork, but the cost of removing that would be to take the agency from the player in sculpting the logistics himself, and leaving much of the system to automation
and you know, that's how all the other games do it, if you're gonna automate it, just fully automate it and have done with it and then we've got Operational Art of War with a sci-fi vibe

Let me use a more obvious example to illustrate this point:

Total War: Warhammer has a problem. The RTS combat is amazing but the auto resolve sucks.
This means that if you want to really optimise your performance in that game you feel forced to fight every battle yourself.
Now, you don't HAVE to, the game is designed so you don't, but people do because they want to lose less troops than they would with autocombat
So is the answer to remove the RTS combat just to have the game automate it?
No
Same with Shadow Empires traffic light system, and I'd argue that the issue with Warhammer is WAY worse.
Now, some people don't like that RTS system so they might see no problem in removing it but the people who do like it will be unhappy.
Same with Shadow Empire here"


The difference between Warhammner's RTS battles and SE's logistic system is that RTS battles are actually fun; managing logistics branches is not. It's just series of trivial decisions when placing traffic lights. Micromanaging is only fun as long as the decisions you're making are meaningful and not trivial. If it's trivial, then it should be automated.

(in reply to KingHalford)
Post #: 120
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