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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess

 
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RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/16/2020 5:52:57 AM   
diamondspider

 

Posts: 141
Joined: 5/15/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo84


quote:

ORIGINAL: diamondspider

The easy fix is to resolve all of the player supply before building the private roads... solved.


Solves nothing. That just shifts the problem to the next turn, unless the player is micromanaging his supply in close enough detail to spot the issue before the next turn resolution.


I disagree only because the overlays allow this to be spotted so easily. My complaint was about the system jacking my supplies with my only way around it being reloading my last game, putting a road to that oil field and putting the correct stop sign in beforehand, which is a sucky work around.

(in reply to Nemo84)
Post #: 301
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/16/2020 6:56:04 AM   
Che12

 

Posts: 23
Joined: 11/4/2015
Status: offline
I honestly don't like this logistic system. No matter what you do, building a good economy, having plenty of ressources, a lot of truck stations all over the area, railstations at important nodes and roads in nearly every hex but my troops at the front are not getting their supplies every turn. Why is the system not auto-assigning the trucks and rails to the right places? If i look in the overview it looks like the supplies are not even transported over all the roads but only over one and sometimes over a free hex next to a road. No truck driver would do this. If there is a traffic stop he would simply take the next possible route.

PLEASE @Vic: Build in a more logical mode. Call it casual or whatever but make it understandable. Because i really do not understand why there should be a disruption in the logistics every 3 turns that brings the whole system to a collapse while everything is green and there are all ressources (fuel, ammunition, food, water, ...) available.

(in reply to diamondspider)
Post #: 302
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/16/2020 8:27:34 AM   
diamondspider

 

Posts: 141
Joined: 5/15/2020
Status: offline
My guess on the main problem is it isn't clear how much a given SHQ is able to push a given good to the front. If such an overlay was available, I think it would help a lot. You can set the % of how the SHQ will allocate its supply, but that problem trying to be solved with supplying a front vs. moving other stuff around is entangling two different issues together in a way that is necessarily difficult to decipher.. and not in a fun puzzle way, but in a way that tends to be frustrating. Other than that, the system seems pretty good to me and I enjoy it. I don't think it is that hard to fix with a new overlay that surfaces this aspect.

(in reply to Che12)
Post #: 303
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/16/2020 10:24:40 AM   
Dampfnudel

 

Posts: 126
Joined: 2/27/2019
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

It has been stated here before but please do not simple down the logistic system - it is what makes this game truly unique and deep, in addition to a lot of stuff also of course. You really get the feeling of managing your realm and I'd opt for even deeper options.

If the logistics system is automated at some point to a pull system for example, please let there be at least a choice to use the old one. I think this game should not be for "the masses", there are tens or hundreds of great simpler strategy games out there to start exploring the genre. I'm at my second game during a week at regular and probably due to luck it seems too easy :D..

It will be a great option to remove AI built roads but of course you can also use these well when conquering. I think the only con is that of aesthetics. I never have found the traffic signs too hard or time consuming to use. You never know when you need that one stretch of road for supply. I like to think about what I do and mostly moving units and think about production stuff has been done in so many games in such a great way. IMO choke points created by the terrain in addition to the supply system are the most interesting things in this game.

The one issue that needs to be dealt with is the one with the private industry stealing half of your logistics points at will before you can catch and execute them. This should not be too hard to do but what do I know.

BTW I have huge variance in how much surplus I get into SHQ storage pretty much ever turn. I might get +1000 food one turn and -700 the next. Oil availability problem for truck stations etc?



Putting traffic signs is not complex. It is tedious micromanagement work. There is no decision making involved. A pull system takes away 0 decision making.

I am curious. How is blocking logistics from flowing into an empty road something you enjoy and why do you consider it a mind-breaking tactical decision?

(in reply to Sieppo)
Post #: 304
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/16/2020 11:15:40 AM   
diamondspider

 

Posts: 141
Joined: 5/15/2020
Status: offline
There are decisions with traffic signs and it works pretty well. I don't find it tedious. I just keep the overlay up and adjust it a bit. It isn't great, but it is another aspect to the game that has a new feel to it.

(in reply to Dampfnudel)
Post #: 305
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/16/2020 11:27:14 AM   
Kamelpov

 

Posts: 167
Joined: 2/22/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dampfnudel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

It has been stated here before but please do not simple down the logistic system - it is what makes this game truly unique and deep, in addition to a lot of stuff also of course. You really get the feeling of managing your realm and I'd opt for even deeper options.

If the logistics system is automated at some point to a pull system for example, please let there be at least a choice to use the old one. I think this game should not be for "the masses", there are tens or hundreds of great simpler strategy games out there to start exploring the genre. I'm at my second game during a week at regular and probably due to luck it seems too easy :D..

It will be a great option to remove AI built roads but of course you can also use these well when conquering. I think the only con is that of aesthetics. I never have found the traffic signs too hard or time consuming to use. You never know when you need that one stretch of road for supply. I like to think about what I do and mostly moving units and think about production stuff has been done in so many games in such a great way. IMO choke points created by the terrain in addition to the supply system are the most interesting things in this game.

The one issue that needs to be dealt with is the one with the private industry stealing half of your logistics points at will before you can catch and execute them. This should not be too hard to do but what do I know.

BTW I have huge variance in how much surplus I get into SHQ storage pretty much ever turn. I might get +1000 food one turn and -700 the next. Oil availability problem for truck stations etc?



Putting traffic signs is not complex. It is tedious micromanagement work. There is no decision making involved. A pull system takes away 0 decision making.

I am curious. How is blocking logistics from flowing into an empty road something you enjoy and why do you consider it a mind-breaking tactical decision?


Sometime logistics going to that empty road is useful if you do strategic redeployment going here

(in reply to Dampfnudel)
Post #: 306
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/16/2020 11:51:09 AM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline
So I have the supplies, the road,the truck stations and a supply depot within three hexes of my army and the majority of my units are not getting supply. Meanwhile the city I have surrounded does not seam to have a problem.

< Message edited by siRkid -- 6/16/2020 11:52:13 AM >


_____________________________

Former War in the Pacific Test Team Manager and Beta Tester for War in the East.


(in reply to Kamelpov)
Post #: 307
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/16/2020 12:39:03 PM   
Sieppo


Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dampfnudel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

It has been stated here before but please do not simple down the logistic system - it is what makes this game truly unique and deep, in addition to a lot of stuff also of course. You really get the feeling of managing your realm and I'd opt for even deeper options.

If the logistics system is automated at some point to a pull system for example, please let there be at least a choice to use the old one. I think this game should not be for "the masses", there are tens or hundreds of great simpler strategy games out there to start exploring the genre. I'm at my second game during a week at regular and probably due to luck it seems too easy :D..

It will be a great option to remove AI built roads but of course you can also use these well when conquering. I think the only con is that of aesthetics. I never have found the traffic signs too hard or time consuming to use. You never know when you need that one stretch of road for supply. I like to think about what I do and mostly moving units and think about production stuff has been done in so many games in such a great way. IMO choke points created by the terrain in addition to the supply system are the most interesting things in this game.

The one issue that needs to be dealt with is the one with the private industry stealing half of your logistics points at will before you can catch and execute them. This should not be too hard to do but what do I know.

BTW I have huge variance in how much surplus I get into SHQ storage pretty much ever turn. I might get +1000 food one turn and -700 the next. Oil availability problem for truck stations etc?



Putting traffic signs is not complex. It is tedious micromanagement work. There is no decision making involved. A pull system takes away 0 decision making.

I am curious. How is blocking logistics from flowing into an empty road something you enjoy and why do you consider it a mind-breaking tactical decision?



For example: you block it for this turn but anticipate some of your units to be in the vicinity in some future turn and adjust it then. It makes you connect more with the game instead of everything being automatic or hidden, like somebody stated here before. I don't understand how you can like the game at all, if you don't enjoy micromanagement to at least some extend.

(in reply to Dampfnudel)
Post #: 308
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/16/2020 3:24:03 PM   
MarbleToad

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 6/10/2020
Status: offline
I haven't had any of these issues. Having played and enjoyed games like Factorio, Im no stranger to resolving thoughput issues. Maybe that has helped. I dont mean to sound harsh, but I wouldnt like the game to get easier to accomodate those who are having trouble with it. If some of us arent having issues with it, like the system, are challenged by it, and are still marching our ways to victory, there isnt anything fundamentally wrong with the system. Maybe a few tweaks would be nice, making a good system better, but overhauling would be a shame. Id be willing to play a pbem game against anyone who is having trouble. Maybe having a human player exploit your weaknesses and also demonstrating through example how to make logistics work might be helpful. Necessity is the mother of invention. Id say the same about the slavers/independent raiders everyone is complaining about as well.

< Message edited by MarbleToad -- 6/16/2020 3:25:41 PM >

(in reply to Sieppo)
Post #: 309
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/16/2020 3:32:49 PM   
MarbleToad

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 6/10/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamelpov


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dampfnudel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

It has been stated here before but please do not simple down the logistic system - it is what makes this game truly unique and deep, in addition to a lot of stuff also of course. You really get the feeling of managing your realm and I'd opt for even deeper options.

If the logistics system is automated at some point to a pull system for example, please let there be at least a choice to use the old one. I think this game should not be for "the masses", there are tens or hundreds of great simpler strategy games out there to start exploring the genre. I'm at my second game during a week at regular and probably due to luck it seems too easy :D..

It will be a great option to remove AI built roads but of course you can also use these well when conquering. I think the only con is that of aesthetics. I never have found the traffic signs too hard or time consuming to use. You never know when you need that one stretch of road for supply. I like to think about what I do and mostly moving units and think about production stuff has been done in so many games in such a great way. IMO choke points created by the terrain in addition to the supply system are the most interesting things in this game.

The one issue that needs to be dealt with is the one with the private industry stealing half of your logistics points at will before you can catch and execute them. This should not be too hard to do but what do I know.

BTW I have huge variance in how much surplus I get into SHQ storage pretty much ever turn. I might get +1000 food one turn and -700 the next. Oil availability problem for truck stations etc?



Putting traffic signs is not complex. It is tedious micromanagement work. There is no decision making involved. A pull system takes away 0 decision making.

I am curious. How is blocking logistics from flowing into an empty road something you enjoy and why do you consider it a mind-breaking tactical decision?


Sometime logistics going to that empty road is useful if you do strategic redeployment going here



Exactly. If you dont have unused logistics, you cant strategic move accross your empire to counter a surprise attack or some other unforseen maneuver. In a multiplayer game, a player who has a perfectly efficient logistics system will have spent less resources, which is an advantage. But the player who has tons of redundancy and overlap will have a strategic advantage. Both equally interesting decisions. Right now, the current system lets you micromanage between these two different strategies as the landscape of the game evolves. Tight on resources or overextended? Plop down some traffic signs. Diplomatic dealings going south with all of your neighbors? Better have some redundancy. If you are always strapped for logistics, then you are likely overextending yourself.


< Message edited by MarbleToad -- 6/16/2020 3:37:26 PM >

(in reply to Kamelpov)
Post #: 310
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/16/2020 3:40:11 PM   
MarbleToad

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 6/10/2020
Status: offline
If you are having logistic issues you cant resolve, a more helpful approach would be to post pics on the forum and invite friendly forum posters to help solve your puzzle.

(in reply to MarbleToad)
Post #: 311
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/16/2020 4:20:48 PM   
Sieppo


Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MarbleToad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamelpov


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dampfnudel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

It has been stated here before but please do not simple down the logistic system - it is what makes this game truly unique and deep, in addition to a lot of stuff also of course. You really get the feeling of managing your realm and I'd opt for even deeper options.

If the logistics system is automated at some point to a pull system for example, please let there be at least a choice to use the old one. I think this game should not be for "the masses", there are tens or hundreds of great simpler strategy games out there to start exploring the genre. I'm at my second game during a week at regular and probably due to luck it seems too easy :D..

It will be a great option to remove AI built roads but of course you can also use these well when conquering. I think the only con is that of aesthetics. I never have found the traffic signs too hard or time consuming to use. You never know when you need that one stretch of road for supply. I like to think about what I do and mostly moving units and think about production stuff has been done in so many games in such a great way. IMO choke points created by the terrain in addition to the supply system are the most interesting things in this game.

The one issue that needs to be dealt with is the one with the private industry stealing half of your logistics points at will before you can catch and execute them. This should not be too hard to do but what do I know.

BTW I have huge variance in how much surplus I get into SHQ storage pretty much ever turn. I might get +1000 food one turn and -700 the next. Oil availability problem for truck stations etc?



Putting traffic signs is not complex. It is tedious micromanagement work. There is no decision making involved. A pull system takes away 0 decision making.

I am curious. How is blocking logistics from flowing into an empty road something you enjoy and why do you consider it a mind-breaking tactical decision?


Sometime logistics going to that empty road is useful if you do strategic redeployment going here



Exactly. If you dont have unused logistics, you cant strategic move accross your empire to counter a surprise attack or some other unforseen maneuver. In a multiplayer game, a player who has a perfectly efficient logistics system will have spent less resources, which is an advantage. But the player who has tons of redundancy and overlap will have a strategic advantage. Both equally interesting decisions. Right now, the current system lets you micromanage between these two different strategies as the landscape of the game evolves. Tight on resources or overextended? Plop down some traffic signs. Diplomatic dealings going south with all of your neighbors? Better have some redundancy. If you are always strapped for logistics, then you are likely overextending yourself.



Yes I tried to convey this as well but you guys put it out more eloquently. Free roads built by the AI also basically are free industrial points. If they bug the eye, you can remove them already in the beta patch.


< Message edited by Sieppo -- 6/16/2020 4:29:21 PM >

(in reply to MarbleToad)
Post #: 312
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/16/2020 6:06:08 PM   
GodwinW


Posts: 511
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline
Generally you'd want to place Supply Stations closer to cities and definitely not near a front line that may move or be at the tail end of a road.

Think like this: a Supply Station dumps a few jerrycans of fuel into every truck passing by with which they can reach way further (it's a helpful analogy I think: zero penalty of them getting it early).

If you put it at the end, just a few trucks who have managed to squeeze out their engines and managed to drive very economically will get the jerrycans of fuel (even if truck AP is used up if you have a lot of LIS the road will carry it forward reducing it hex by hex).

But we'd need a picture to help more.

< Message edited by GodwinW -- 6/16/2020 6:08:40 PM >

(in reply to siRkid)
Post #: 313
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/16/2020 6:07:29 PM   
GodwinW


Posts: 511
Joined: 6/5/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MarbleToad

I haven't had any of these issues. Having played and enjoyed games like Factorio, Im no stranger to resolving thoughput issues. Maybe that has helped. I dont mean to sound harsh, but I wouldnt like the game to get easier to accomodate those who are having trouble with it. If some of us arent having issues with it, like the system, are challenged by it, and are still marching our ways to victory, there isnt anything fundamentally wrong with the system. Maybe a few tweaks would be nice, making a good system better, but overhauling would be a shame. Id be willing to play a pbem game against anyone who is having trouble. Maybe having a human player exploit your weaknesses and also demonstrating through example how to make logistics work might be helpful. Necessity is the mother of invention. Id say the same about the slavers/independent raiders everyone is complaining about as well.


I do agree with this, although it may come across as a tad elitist.
Especially agree since you also say "Maybe a few tweaks would be nice, making a good system better", and being able to delete roads is definitely good and relocating the 'Clear All Signs' button would be good too. And probably there are a few other minor things? Maybe.

< Message edited by GodwinW -- 6/16/2020 6:09:56 PM >

(in reply to MarbleToad)
Post #: 314
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/16/2020 6:13:48 PM   
Malevolence


Posts: 1781
Joined: 4/3/2010
Status: offline
I like the system, but there is definitely room to improve the reporting and adding units and buildings to better manage logistics.

I often wish for some kind of mobile staging base away from the SHQ. I would be willing to sacrifice the efficiency with a two turn delivery in exchange for a warehouse full-fillment feature. It also offers everyone a nice targets to disrupt or destroy.


< Message edited by Malevolence -- 6/16/2020 6:15:38 PM >


_____________________________

Nicht kleckern, sondern klotzen!

*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.

(in reply to GodwinW)
Post #: 315
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/16/2020 6:17:57 PM   
Sieppo


Posts: 933
Joined: 12/15/2012
From: Helsinki, Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

I often wish for some kind of mobile staging base away from the SHQ. I would be willing to sacrifice the efficiency with a two turn delivery in exchange for a warehouse full-fillment feature. It also offers everyone a nice targets to disrupt or destroy.



I absolutely agree with this. I was a bit shocked that troops cannot for example use nearby food structures as a priority but that the food circulates via the SHQ, which might be thousands and thousands of km's away.

(in reply to Malevolence)
Post #: 316
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/16/2020 6:31:25 PM   
Nemo84

 

Posts: 115
Joined: 3/29/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dampfnudel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

It has been stated here before but please do not simple down the logistic system - it is what makes this game truly unique and deep, in addition to a lot of stuff also of course. You really get the feeling of managing your realm and I'd opt for even deeper options.

If the logistics system is automated at some point to a pull system for example, please let there be at least a choice to use the old one. I think this game should not be for "the masses", there are tens or hundreds of great simpler strategy games out there to start exploring the genre. I'm at my second game during a week at regular and probably due to luck it seems too easy :D..

It will be a great option to remove AI built roads but of course you can also use these well when conquering. I think the only con is that of aesthetics. I never have found the traffic signs too hard or time consuming to use. You never know when you need that one stretch of road for supply. I like to think about what I do and mostly moving units and think about production stuff has been done in so many games in such a great way. IMO choke points created by the terrain in addition to the supply system are the most interesting things in this game.

The one issue that needs to be dealt with is the one with the private industry stealing half of your logistics points at will before you can catch and execute them. This should not be too hard to do but what do I know.

BTW I have huge variance in how much surplus I get into SHQ storage pretty much ever turn. I might get +1000 food one turn and -700 the next. Oil availability problem for truck stations etc?



Putting traffic signs is not complex. It is tedious micromanagement work. There is no decision making involved. A pull system takes away 0 decision making.

I am curious. How is blocking logistics from flowing into an empty road something you enjoy and why do you consider it a mind-breaking tactical decision?



For example: you block it for this turn but anticipate some of your units to be in the vicinity in some future turn and adjust it then. It makes you connect more with the game instead of everything being automatic or hidden, like somebody stated here before. I don't understand how you can like the game at all, if you don't enjoy micromanagement to at least some extend.



The proper way to do that would be to have a button that extends supply to the one road you want it to redeploy to, instead of having to press a button for every road you don't want it to go.

Brainless micromanagement is neither strategy nor gameplay, and I haven't read a single counter-argument in these 11 pages that wouldn't be equally possible with far less hassle in a more intelligent supply system.

(in reply to Sieppo)
Post #: 317
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/16/2020 6:54:51 PM   
MarbleToad

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 6/10/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo84


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dampfnudel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

It has been stated here before but please do not simple down the logistic system - it is what makes this game truly unique and deep, in addition to a lot of stuff also of course. You really get the feeling of managing your realm and I'd opt for even deeper options.

If the logistics system is automated at some point to a pull system for example, please let there be at least a choice to use the old one. I think this game should not be for "the masses", there are tens or hundreds of great simpler strategy games out there to start exploring the genre. I'm at my second game during a week at regular and probably due to luck it seems too easy :D..

It will be a great option to remove AI built roads but of course you can also use these well when conquering. I think the only con is that of aesthetics. I never have found the traffic signs too hard or time consuming to use. You never know when you need that one stretch of road for supply. I like to think about what I do and mostly moving units and think about production stuff has been done in so many games in such a great way. IMO choke points created by the terrain in addition to the supply system are the most interesting things in this game.

The one issue that needs to be dealt with is the one with the private industry stealing half of your logistics points at will before you can catch and execute them. This should not be too hard to do but what do I know.

BTW I have huge variance in how much surplus I get into SHQ storage pretty much ever turn. I might get +1000 food one turn and -700 the next. Oil availability problem for truck stations etc?



Putting traffic signs is not complex. It is tedious micromanagement work. There is no decision making involved. A pull system takes away 0 decision making.

I am curious. How is blocking logistics from flowing into an empty road something you enjoy and why do you consider it a mind-breaking tactical decision?



For example: you block it for this turn but anticipate some of your units to be in the vicinity in some future turn and adjust it then. It makes you connect more with the game instead of everything being automatic or hidden, like somebody stated here before. I don't understand how you can like the game at all, if you don't enjoy micromanagement to at least some extend.



The proper way to do that would be to have a button that extends supply to the one road you want it to redeploy to, instead of having to press a button for every road you don't want it to go.

Brainless micromanagement is neither strategy nor gameplay, and I haven't read a single counter-argument in these 11 pages that wouldn't be equally possible with far less hassle in a more intelligent supply system.


Ok. Here is an example: If I have a single road from my city that branches into 16 roads that evenly supply a massive front(split in half, then again, then again). In your example, I need to click 16 times to tell my logistics where to go. But in the current system it is the default that they are all supplied. And what if I want to supply that front at places without the need, for strategic move. Even if it did both methods, but drew to where it is needed as an override system, it would still require me to micromanage something I dont have to right now. I dont mind micromanaging, as Ive said. Just giving an example of where your method is not better.

(in reply to Nemo84)
Post #: 318
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/16/2020 8:45:33 PM   
Nemo84

 

Posts: 115
Joined: 3/29/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MarbleToad


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo84


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dampfnudel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

It has been stated here before but please do not simple down the logistic system - it is what makes this game truly unique and deep, in addition to a lot of stuff also of course. You really get the feeling of managing your realm and I'd opt for even deeper options.

If the logistics system is automated at some point to a pull system for example, please let there be at least a choice to use the old one. I think this game should not be for "the masses", there are tens or hundreds of great simpler strategy games out there to start exploring the genre. I'm at my second game during a week at regular and probably due to luck it seems too easy :D..

It will be a great option to remove AI built roads but of course you can also use these well when conquering. I think the only con is that of aesthetics. I never have found the traffic signs too hard or time consuming to use. You never know when you need that one stretch of road for supply. I like to think about what I do and mostly moving units and think about production stuff has been done in so many games in such a great way. IMO choke points created by the terrain in addition to the supply system are the most interesting things in this game.

The one issue that needs to be dealt with is the one with the private industry stealing half of your logistics points at will before you can catch and execute them. This should not be too hard to do but what do I know.

BTW I have huge variance in how much surplus I get into SHQ storage pretty much ever turn. I might get +1000 food one turn and -700 the next. Oil availability problem for truck stations etc?



Putting traffic signs is not complex. It is tedious micromanagement work. There is no decision making involved. A pull system takes away 0 decision making.

I am curious. How is blocking logistics from flowing into an empty road something you enjoy and why do you consider it a mind-breaking tactical decision?



For example: you block it for this turn but anticipate some of your units to be in the vicinity in some future turn and adjust it then. It makes you connect more with the game instead of everything being automatic or hidden, like somebody stated here before. I don't understand how you can like the game at all, if you don't enjoy micromanagement to at least some extend.



The proper way to do that would be to have a button that extends supply to the one road you want it to redeploy to, instead of having to press a button for every road you don't want it to go.

Brainless micromanagement is neither strategy nor gameplay, and I haven't read a single counter-argument in these 11 pages that wouldn't be equally possible with far less hassle in a more intelligent supply system.


Ok. Here is an example: If I have a single road from my city that branches into 16 roads that evenly supply a massive front(split in half, then again, then again). In your example, I need to click 16 times to tell my logistics where to go. But in the current system it is the default that they are all supplied. And what if I want to supply that front at places without the need, for strategic move. Even if it did both methods, but drew to where it is needed as an override system, it would still require me to micromanage something I dont have to right now. I dont mind micromanaging, as Ive said. Just giving an example of where your method is not better.


And in your example you're still clicking more than 16 times in the current implementation: to close off the 50+ other dead-end roads that would otherwise prevent LPs from even arriving at this 16 branch road.

There will always be more road branches that don't need thousands of logistic points than you can ever conjure up branches that do.

< Message edited by Nemo84 -- 6/16/2020 8:48:18 PM >

(in reply to MarbleToad)
Post #: 319
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/16/2020 9:27:07 PM   
MarbleToad

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo84

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarbleToad


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo84


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dampfnudel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

It has been stated here before but please do not simple down the logistic system - it is what makes this game truly unique and deep, in addition to a lot of stuff also of course. You really get the feeling of managing your realm and I'd opt for even deeper options.

If the logistics system is automated at some point to a pull system for example, please let there be at least a choice to use the old one. I think this game should not be for "the masses", there are tens or hundreds of great simpler strategy games out there to start exploring the genre. I'm at my second game during a week at regular and probably due to luck it seems too easy :D..

It will be a great option to remove AI built roads but of course you can also use these well when conquering. I think the only con is that of aesthetics. I never have found the traffic signs too hard or time consuming to use. You never know when you need that one stretch of road for supply. I like to think about what I do and mostly moving units and think about production stuff has been done in so many games in such a great way. IMO choke points created by the terrain in addition to the supply system are the most interesting things in this game.

The one issue that needs to be dealt with is the one with the private industry stealing half of your logistics points at will before you can catch and execute them. This should not be too hard to do but what do I know.

BTW I have huge variance in how much surplus I get into SHQ storage pretty much ever turn. I might get +1000 food one turn and -700 the next. Oil availability problem for truck stations etc?



Putting traffic signs is not complex. It is tedious micromanagement work. There is no decision making involved. A pull system takes away 0 decision making.

I am curious. How is blocking logistics from flowing into an empty road something you enjoy and why do you consider it a mind-breaking tactical decision?



For example: you block it for this turn but anticipate some of your units to be in the vicinity in some future turn and adjust it then. It makes you connect more with the game instead of everything being automatic or hidden, like somebody stated here before. I don't understand how you can like the game at all, if you don't enjoy micromanagement to at least some extend.



The proper way to do that would be to have a button that extends supply to the one road you want it to redeploy to, instead of having to press a button for every road you don't want it to go.

Brainless micromanagement is neither strategy nor gameplay, and I haven't read a single counter-argument in these 11 pages that wouldn't be equally possible with far less hassle in a more intelligent supply system.


Ok. Here is an example: If I have a single road from my city that branches into 16 roads that evenly supply a massive front(split in half, then again, then again). In your example, I need to click 16 times to tell my logistics where to go. But in the current system it is the default that they are all supplied. And what if I want to supply that front at places without the need, for strategic move. Even if it did both methods, but drew to where it is needed as an override system, it would still require me to micromanage something I dont have to right now. I dont mind micromanaging, as Ive said. Just giving an example of where your method is not better.


And in your example you're still clicking more than 16 times in the current implementation: to close off the 50+ other dead-end roads that would otherwise prevent LPs from even arriving at this 16 branch road.

There will always be more road branches that don't need thousands of logistic points than you can ever conjure up branches that do.


Ok. Question: In a pull based system, as you see it, do all units receive resources if you have enough resources, trucks, and a clear route? Or are you simply suggesting an easier to use system for mapping out logistic lines?

Let me elaborate to make sure Im asking the questions correctly, so I can better understand exactly what you are looking for. In the first scenario, there is no micromanaging at all. Just build enough stuff. Presto. Done. In the second scenario, things are functionally the same, but rather then placing traffic signs, you'd be able to trace a line on the board following a given path and allocating the number of trucks to send down that route, or even have the functionality of clicking on a unit and have the game come up with a route that brings the minimum, which you could then tweak.

I see the latter as additional tools improving the quality of life of the current LIS but still improving upon the current system.

The former is an overhaul that changes an aspect of the game and demotes logistics to a more is better system.

Curious on your take.

(in reply to Nemo84)
Post #: 320
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/16/2020 9:29:23 PM   
MarbleToad

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

I often wish for some kind of mobile staging base away from the SHQ. I would be willing to sacrifice the efficiency with a two turn delivery in exchange for a warehouse full-fillment feature. It also offers everyone a nice targets to disrupt or destroy.



I absolutely agree with this. I was a bit shocked that troops cannot for example use nearby food structures as a priority but that the food circulates via the SHQ, which might be thousands and thousands of km's away.


This would be a cool addition.

(in reply to Sieppo)
Post #: 321
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/17/2020 1:23:43 AM   
diamondspider

 

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quote:

I often wish for some kind of mobile staging base away from the SHQ.


++

(in reply to Malevolence)
Post #: 322
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/17/2020 6:43:45 AM   
Nemo84

 

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I honestly don't really care how Vic solves it. I just don't want to be forced to fiddle around with these traffic signs each turn lest my front supply completely collapses because someone built a farm next to my capitol.

In my case about all my issues would be solved by two new traffic signs. The first is one that simply automatically draws the minimum required LP for connected assets and is placed automatically on every dirt road created when an asset is built. This one solves about 95% of my traffic issues right now. The second is one that allows me to type in the exact amount of LP that is allowed to pass, instead of it being a relative fraction of a variable. This would solve the remaining 5%.

(in reply to MarbleToad)
Post #: 323
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/17/2020 10:22:10 AM   
btonasse

 

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I'm surprised the OP has got so much negative reaction to a very valid point. And with such off-the-point arguments to boot (not to mention the hostile tone of some people here)!

It makes zero sense that one lvl 1 mine should attract thousands of log points just because you didn't click a button. Imagine sending 500 food to one unit that needs 20 unless you open a popup and limits how much food should be sent to that unit. Makes no sense, right? Adds no value to the game. Only one more chore.

(in reply to Emx77)
Post #: 324
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/17/2020 2:32:56 PM   
MarbleToad

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 6/10/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo84

In my case about all my issues would be solved by two new traffic signs. The first is one that simply automatically draws the minimum required LP for connected assets and is placed automatically on every dirt road created when an asset is built. This one solves about 95% of my traffic issues right now. The second is one that allows me to type in the exact amount of LP that is allowed to pass, instead of it being a relative fraction of a variable. This would solve the remaining 5%.


I like both of these ideas.

(in reply to Nemo84)
Post #: 325
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/17/2020 5:09:37 PM   
Vic


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I have some ideas that are ripening guys. Lets just say I am thinking in the direction of allowing some "pull" systems to work in tandem with the current systems to make it easier if you do not want to micro-manage.

Give me some time. Should have something to show in at most a week or two or so. (ETA, no promise)

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(in reply to MarbleToad)
Post #: 326
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/17/2020 9:44:50 PM   
IamMax

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 6/15/2020
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Hey folks,

Have an issue that's currently stumping me.

1. I have ~20,000 excess energy generation
2. I have a whole bunch of units that use energy
3. Those units are mostly not being resupplied with energy

The manual says that energy has no supply weight, "cables are assumed". So I don't understand why the units that are receiving their full allotment of fuel & food and a partial allotment of replacements aren't receiving energy.

(my account is too new for the boards to allow me to post a screenshot or save </3 :( :( :( etc)

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 327
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/18/2020 12:01:15 AM   
Hazard151

 

Posts: 147
Joined: 6/15/2020
Status: offline
Do you have enough energy storage?

I've run into a similar issue, where my economy gets throttled because there's not enough energy storage, as the game distributes supplies from the storage, and then fills the storage. Anything in excess is wasted, or sold if possible, but that does mean that if the storage is too small, you can never supply enough goods.

(in reply to IamMax)
Post #: 328
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/18/2020 12:09:26 AM   
Malevolence


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Joined: 4/3/2010
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I wouldn't assume that no weight means that Logistic Points aren't used at all. Fuel is same. If you don't have LP's, fuel is not delivered. Also, Industrial Points need Logistic Points to transfer.

< Message edited by Malevolence -- 6/18/2020 12:10:37 AM >


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(in reply to Hazard151)
Post #: 329
RE: The logistic System is a gigantic mess - 6/18/2020 12:09:33 AM   
IamMax

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 6/15/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hazard151

Do you have enough energy storage?

I've run into a similar issue, where my economy gets throttled because there's not enough energy storage, as the game distributes supplies from the storage, and then fills the storage. Anything in excess is wasted, or sold if possible, but that does mean that if the storage is too small, you can never supply enough goods.


OH! If that's the case, then I'm certain that I do not have enough storage. 8k storage, but I have quite a few buildings that use 800 energy, so the great majority--or all--is likely being eaten by my buildings.

Which would also explain why some buildings in cities that have like 30,000 LIS running through them are getting like 785 out of 800.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

(in reply to Hazard151)
Post #: 330
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