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weird FBD repair consequence - 6/7/2020 8:36:49 PM   
joelmar


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Here is a FBD repair weirdness I spotted, here is the new rule for reference:

quote:

1.12.04

9. A hex will now be eligible for FBD/NKPS repair if:
a. it is within 4 hexes of a railhead (6 in the Baltic zone prior to Dec 1941) - please note, that since 1.12.00 range to rail or HQ is now measured along the path of lowest MP cost to target hex, not in a straight line);
b. it is within RRV (Rail Repair Value of the FBD/NKPS unit) hexes of a railhead;
c. it is connected to another friendly rail hex that has less than 2 damage.



I have this situation where I can't repair 6 hexes in the baltic because of a single swamp hex which forces to take the path of least MP that goes around it.

I understand the purpose. But by the rule, the repair would have been permitted if there had been a swamp hex to the south-east or east because both paths would have been equal, which doesn't make sense. It's like, if there is a faster path around, you can't repair up to the max, but if there is no faster path around, you can. lol!









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RE: weird FBD repair consequence - 6/18/2020 10:37:26 PM   
Stonne

 

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Hello Joelmar,

Thanks for posting this comment. I had the same situation and really couldn't understand it.

Regards,

Stonne

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RE: weird FBD repair consequence - 6/18/2020 10:43:39 PM   
eskuche

 

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I think the rail repair map needs to be revisited for 1.12.

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RE: weird FBD repair consequence - 6/18/2020 11:33:46 PM   
joelmar


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My pleasure @Stonne!

agreed @eskuche

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RE: weird FBD repair consequence - 6/19/2020 11:56:02 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: joelmar

Here is a FBD repair weirdness I spotted, here is the new rule for reference:

quote:

1.12.04

9. A hex will now be eligible for FBD/NKPS repair if:
a. it is within 4 hexes of a railhead (6 in the Baltic zone prior to Dec 1941) - please note, that since 1.12.00 range to rail or HQ is now measured along the path of lowest MP cost to target hex, not in a straight line);
b. it is within RRV (Rail Repair Value of the FBD/NKPS unit) hexes of a railhead;
c. it is connected to another friendly rail hex that has less than 2 damage.



I have this situation where I can't repair 6 hexes in the baltic because of a single swamp hex which forces to take the path of least MP that goes around it.

I understand the purpose. But by the rule, the repair would have been permitted if there had been a swamp hex to the south-east or east because both paths would have been equal, which doesn't make sense. It's like, if there is a faster path around, you can't repair up to the max, but if there is no faster path around, you can. lol!



This posted got me thinking so I've been testing on the German side.

First FBD/NKPS need construction/labour units or they have no RRV. It's not how many units are assigned but the number of men in the units that matters. Very roughly, one labour grp is equivalent to three contruction Bn or labour det. One Bn/Det is slightly less than 1 RRV with one Grp being slightly more than 3 RRV. This roughly equates to 450 men per RRV.

FBD/NKPS require MP moving at the non-motorised movement costs. This is 16MP and once expended they cannot move any more that turn. The RRC value is the cost to repair a hex, 1 in Baltic, 3 elsewhere and is subtracted from its RRV value for each repaired hex. What is not appreciated is that this is also a MP cost so repairing a Baltic hex also costs 1 MP, elsewhere 3MP. For the Germans with 16 RRV and a max 16 MP its easy to see. The Roumanian one with only 10MP isn't. Having an RRV greater than your movement points is pointless but you can apparently increase it, how far I don't know but it's pointless. I've got one in testing that's 23.

This is why some units may not be able to fully use all their RRV each turn, or vica versa, able to move further but not repair.

The other problem is the range to railhead restriction. 6 in the baltic, 4 elsewhere. This is range in hexes and not MP but you cannot go through an enemy ZOC. I can't remember how it used to work but I think '...not in a straight line)' implies you could.

If I was arranging the order of repair elligibility I list them as below but ALL conditions must me met.

1. It must be connected to another friendly rail hex that has less than 2 damage that is itself conected to fully functional railhead. This excludes repaired rail hexes that cannot be used. (E.g. Green ones with thre white dots).
2. It has enough RRV left to repair it.
3. It's within 4 hexes of a fully repaired railhead (6 in the Baltic zone prior to Dec 1941) - please note, that since 1.12.00 range to railhead or HQ is now measured along the path of lowest MP cost to target hex, not in a straight line).

Example
If you look at the pic below the circled FBD in the Baltic is in a neutral zone with 11 RRV and 3 MP remaining and is 7MP from the railhead. It should be able to repair the hex but it's too far away due to having to go round the ZOC of the Soviet unit and not in a straight line. If you remove the enemy ZOC then the FBD will repair the hex but it will now run out of MPs so cannot move further, hence not use all of it's RRV.



After testing I can find nothing wrong with the manual repair system, it's working as intended. In the eexample in this thread the FBD is seven hexes away from the railhead which is why you cannot repair the hex.

Auto repair
Remember that the 1st rule for auto repair is the same as that for manual repair. It must be connected to another friendly rail hex that has less than 2 damage that is itself conected to fully functional railhead. This excludes repaired rail hexes that cannot be used. (E.g. Green ones with thre white dots).

The other restriction applied is the HQ will only send out construction/labour units out to the their max command range, 90 for High cammand, 10 for Soviet army, 5 for Corps etc. When attacking Corps and possibly Army HQs are likely to exceed the distance from the railhead, so be unable to carry out railrepair.

So during the German Blitzkreig in 1941 for example, putting more than one, possible two construction units in a German Korps is not benificial. Your not digging in. Once mud sets in however fort construction becomes more important so increasing this number becomes more important.






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< Message edited by Chris21wen -- 6/20/2020 8:29:09 AM >

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RE: weird FBD repair consequence - 6/19/2020 1:02:59 PM   
joelmar


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quote:


chris21wen
In the eexample in this thread the FBD is seven hexes away from the railhead which is why you cannot repair the hex.


If you're talking about the example I posted, the FBD is 6 hexes from the rail head, not 7.

I'm all aware of what you mentionned, but thank you for taking the time. In my example, the FBD clearly meets all 3 criterias you mentionned.

The problem in my example is exactly what I explained, which is linked to the new rule that supply path must be traced along the path of lowest MP. In this example, the path of lowest MP is not the direct path. I can agree with the example you showed, because the Soviet unit ZOC is blocking the way and slows down communications along the rail. There is no such thing in the example I showed, only a more difficult hex.

I could explain another way... you have a 10 miles straight asphalted road, with a 2 miles dirt section in the middle. It takes lets say 10 min to go from start to finish. Besides, you have another road which is asphalted all the way. But that doesn't change the fact that the first road takes 10 min to go through. And if you put a third road all dirt and full of holes parallel to the first 2, that still won't change how long it takes to go through the first road.

But what happens in my example is that I have a FBD that has all the technical requirements to do the job. But won't do it because there is a 2 miles dirt part in the middle and there is an all asphalted road parallel to it. Remove the all asphalted road and replace it with a full dirt road, then my FBD can do the job. Just doesn't make sense.

Maybe my comment may be clearer explained like this.

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RE: weird FBD repair consequence - 6/19/2020 1:22:11 PM   
joelmar


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And if you push that logic 1 step further, a faster parallel road should help repair by making the transport of supplies and material easier, not hinder it!

but I agree that it's not a game breaker problem to have 1 less hex repaired here and there, only annoying. My point is more that its a weird situation.

< Message edited by joelmar -- 6/19/2020 1:23:06 PM >


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RE: weird FBD repair consequence - 6/20/2020 5:50:52 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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Your correct it is only 6 hexes thought the swamp, 7 around it which is what the unit does. MPs are identical either way you go.

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RE: weird FBD repair consequence - 6/20/2020 5:56:42 AM   
tyronec


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What is going on here, I can only repair 2 hexes ?




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RE: weird FBD repair consequence - 6/20/2020 8:39:08 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

What is going on here, I can only repair 2 hexes ?





Not sure to be honest. Looks like you should, enough MPs and RRV, no EOC and connected. Only thing I can't tell is how many you have repaired already. Can you expand the image so I can see where it is and whats around it. What and where did it start from?

I've had situations like that but it always turned out that some early hex has been cut by an EOC or blown up by partisans.

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RE: weird FBD repair consequence - 6/20/2020 8:41:26 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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I've amended the test. An FBD can have more than 16RRV (I've got one at 23) but there's no point increasing it above the units max MP.

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RE: weird FBD repair consequence - 6/20/2020 9:36:48 AM   
tyronec


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quote:

Not sure to be honest. Looks like you should, enough MPs and RRV, no EOC and connected. Only thing I can't tell is how many you have repaired already. Can you expand the image so I can see where it is and whats around it. What and where did it start from?

I've had situations like that but it always turned out that some early hex has been cut by an EOC or blown up by partisans.

The move has gone now so I can't do another screenshot. It repaired 2 hexes, moved into the third and no repair possible, the hex on the edge of the screen was already rail. It started either on the first hex repaired or the hex to the left of that. There were no Soviets anywhere near.

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RE: weird FBD repair consequence - 6/20/2020 12:16:42 PM   
joelmar


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quote:


ORIGINAL: chris21wen
MPs are identical either way you go.


No they are not. Going on the rail is:

2 wood hexes = 4MPs
1 swamp hex = 6 MPs
3 clear hexes = 3 MPs
Total 13 MPs

around:
2 wood hexes = 4MPs
5 clear hexes = 5MP
total = 9 Mps

So going around needs a good deal less MPs. Remember, you have to use motorized calculations for supply paths


@tyronec The wooden hex in your example should normally create the same thing I describe, but it doesn't add up. You should be able to repair a third hex. I have no explication. What I describe is WAD, but this looks like a bug.

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RE: weird FBD repair consequence - 6/21/2020 5:37:21 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: joelmar

quote:


ORIGINAL: chris21wen
MPs are identical either way you go.


No they are not. Going on the rail is:

2 wood hexes = 4MPs
1 swamp hex = 6 MPs
3 clear hexes = 3 MPs
Total 13 MPs

around:
2 wood hexes = 4MPs
5 clear hexes = 5MP
total = 9 Mps

So going around needs a good deal less MPs. Remember, you have to use motorized calculations for supply paths


@tyronec The wooden hex in your example should normally create the same thing I describe, but it doesn't add up. You should be able to repair a third hex. I have no explication. What I describe is WAD, but this looks like a bug.


Correct it is for supply paths but I'm not talking about supply path. The FBD uses non-motorised movements to move and it is this MP cost I'm talking about. The rules say '..measured along the path of lowest MP cost to target hex..' and not supply path.

tryonec problem sure looks like a bug.


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RE: weird FBD repair consequence - 6/21/2020 1:15:32 PM   
joelmar


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quote:


ORIGINAL: chris21wen

Correct it is for supply paths but I'm not talking about supply path. The FBD uses non-motorised movements to move and it is this MP cost I'm talking about. The rules say '..measured along the path of lowest MP cost to target hex..' and not supply path.


lol... right, but I don't understand what you're trying to say there chris.

Let's say that it uses the walking MPs as you say, then what I reported is a ALSO a bug because if there's a choice between 2 paths of equal MP's, by the rule, the game engine should choose the one using the less hexes, not the one using the most. So then what I reported is also a bug and not WAD.

I mean quite an easy algorithm:

if other path MPs < path MPs then
use other path
else
use path
end

So what's happening then?

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RE: weird FBD repair consequence - 6/21/2020 3:13:42 PM   
tyronec


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quote:

tryonec problem sure looks like a bug.

They had full normal repair next turn. I seem to remember being short of an FBD move once when I was playing a couple of years back so if it is a bug it is a fairly minor one.

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RE: weird FBD repair consequence - 6/28/2020 9:24:29 AM   
tyronec


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Had another one of these this turn close to the same area, two hexes repaired and then the third one wouldn't. Had two FBDs within range and neither would convert it. Odd.

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RE: weird FBD repair consequence - 7/19/2020 11:21:43 AM   
Grognard1812


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Just South of Leningrad was able to repair 2 swamp hexes but the third hex a light woods hex couldn't be repaired even though the FBD appears to have enough MP. The light woods hex just west of the first swamp hex repaired is a railhead.








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RE: weird FBD repair consequence - 7/19/2020 5:48:48 PM   
joelmar


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I'm not sure because I can't tell with 100% certitude what terrain is under the HQ units, but it looks like you have 1 swamp hex and 2 light woods north of the rail, which is the same problem as the one I described


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