Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

War in Europe - Realism

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Strategic Command Series >> Strategic Command WWII War in Europe >> War in Europe - Realism Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
War in Europe - Realism - 6/6/2020 7:27:14 PM   
canuckgamer

 

Posts: 585
Joined: 6/23/2004
Status: offline
Still plugging away in our current PBEM game. The Yanks finally entered the war in June 1942 as the Axis again used the All France strategy. I still say Pearl Harbor should have a more signficant effect on USA entry. When Churchill found out about Pearl Harbor, his reaction was that Britain was saved. In other words he knew at that point that it was just a matter of time before the USA would also enter the war against Germany. Certainly Hitler accelerated the entry by declaring war on the USA 4 days later but in SC WIE this fact is ignored. I find it hard to believe that after Pearl Harbor the USA would not enter the war in Europe until June 1942.

I understand when some people say that they don't want a game where the same sequence of events happen over and over again but shouldn't alternate strategies and events have some historical basis?

As the Allies I shipped about 80% of all French forces to North Africa. Would the French government have done this historically? Not likely.

Another feature of the game that is not realistic is paradrops. Historically the Germans had one large scale drop, Crete. They suffered so many casualties they never tried it again. For the Allies, their two major drops were Normandy and Market Garden. Both required massive resources and planning although less in the case of Market Garden. In SC WIE you can conduct a paradrop every month if you want. I'm thinking this should be limited or the cost to build paratroopers should be a lot more as they were elite troops that required a long lead time to train.

Air power alone should not be capable of eliminating a ground unit. The only time that air power almost achieved this was Operation Cobra when the Allies used hundreds of bombers. The Axis never had this capability. This is our 3rd PBEM game and the war in North Africa in every game has consisted of the Allies building extensive fortifications with both sides eliminating or almost eliminating ground units with air power. Not exactly historical. Malta and Gibraltar were pounded by air power until the defending ground unit was eliminated after which the Axis took them by either a paradrop or amphibious invasion. The Malta situation brings up another unrealistic feature. Since you can't stack in the game it is not possible to base a Brit fighter in Malta like they did historically.








Post #: 1
RE: War in Europe - Realism - 6/6/2020 7:39:09 PM   
dhucul2011

 

Posts: 551
Joined: 9/12/2007
Status: offline
There should be a % chance (Omaybe 50 or more) that an Axis AI DOWs the USA after Pearl Harbour, I agree with that.

Crispy's MOD Fall Weiss II reduces the ability of air power to cause damage and instead increase morale and efficiency damage. Check it out.

The AA in Malta well represents the ability of the island to defend against air attack and its fortified value against amphib. There is no need for stacking. The only thing that can't be represented is Malta air power ranging out to attack convoys but that is represented by the Malta Effect scripts.

(in reply to canuckgamer)
Post #: 2
RE: War in Europe - Realism - 6/7/2020 1:57:14 AM   
Hairog


Posts: 1619
Joined: 7/11/2000
From: Cornucopia, WI
Status: offline
Units are not destroyed by air power. They are rendered useless for combat and must be pulled from the front lines and reinforced, supplied etc.

This is simulated by the decreased cost of both money and time it takes to have the disrupted unit made combat ready again. When a unit is removed it appears in the unit build pool and you can spend the MMPs to get it back to combat ready and it takes a fraction of the time and cost to do so.

In my Naval Mod, Screen Task Forces are easily rendered not combat ready and are removed from the map, but they are easily reinforced and are placed back into production at 20% of their original cost and can be back fighting in two turns.



_____________________________

WW III 1946 Books
SC3 EAW WW Three 1946 Mod and Naval Mods
WarPlan and WarPlan Pac Alpha and Be

(in reply to dhucul2011)
Post #: 3
RE: War in Europe - Realism - 6/7/2020 11:23:12 PM   
Sugar

 

Posts: 908
Joined: 3/16/2017
Status: offline
Without air power being able to destroy units Malta could never be occupied. There`s always a lvl of abstraction in any war game, even in every mod.

(in reply to Hairog)
Post #: 4
RE: War in Europe - Realism - 6/8/2020 12:26:49 AM   
canuckgamer

 

Posts: 585
Joined: 6/23/2004
Status: offline
I chose Fall Weiss II as a single player to check it out and the following message came up:

Could not find the following markers within the "Text\EN\victory_conditions.txt file:#2=%N

The campaign did start and I did a couple of attacks with the Germans in Poland. Can someone clarify the above message?

(in reply to Hairog)
Post #: 5
RE: War in Europe - Realism - 6/8/2020 1:18:08 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

Posts: 1019
Joined: 5/6/2017
Status: offline
Canuck the issue with your game (initial Game in thread) is, if I recall, that France hadn't surrendered nor SU attacked by '42. In this case I'm not sure the US would declare war on Germany even with Pearl Harbor, or even if Pearl Harbor would have happened.

The game just operates fine on a "what if" basis. There are nuances of the game play you just need to get used to.

I agree that paratroopers should have somewhat larger losses when landing , same for both sides tho.

Malta and the airforce work fine. Game doesn't need stacking.

dhuc I like (and have proposed) your idea on Pearl Harbor. The idea of introducing a DE that there is a 50% chance of US entering on DEC 7 irregardless of mobilization is a good one IMO. It would have to have other stipulations like France has surrendered and Axis has DOW on SU.






(in reply to canuckgamer)
Post #: 6
RE: War in Europe - Realism - 6/9/2020 1:38:52 AM   
crispy131313


Posts: 2041
Joined: 11/30/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: canuckgamer

I chose Fall Weiss II as a single player to check it out and the following message came up:

Could not find the following markers within the "Text\EN\victory_conditions.txt file:#2=%N

The campaign did start and I did a couple of attacks with the Germans in Poland. Can someone clarify the above message?


Did you save it where mods go or where the regular campaigns are?

_____________________________


(in reply to canuckgamer)
Post #: 7
RE: War in Europe - Realism - 6/11/2020 2:46:12 AM   
canuckgamer

 

Posts: 585
Joined: 6/23/2004
Status: offline
I didn't install the mod. It was one of the campaigns that I could choose from in the opening menu so it must have been installed by one of the updates? Are you saying I have to download it and manually install it?

(in reply to crispy131313)
Post #: 8
RE: War in Europe - Realism - 6/11/2020 3:07:35 AM   
crispy131313


Posts: 2041
Joined: 11/30/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: canuckgamer

I didn't install the mod. It was one of the campaigns that I could choose from in the opening menu so it must have been installed by one of the updates? Are you saying I have to download it and manually install it?


The community pack version is very dated at this point, you can download the newest version here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cuo4ok1goyz9knb/Fall%20Weiss%20II%20-%20WIE%207.0.zip?dl=0

Install instructions:
When you open the dropbox link beside the sign in button there is an arrow just click that to download, both files will download as a zip. No need to sign up.

The zip file should be "extracted" (right click the zip file to select extract) and placed in the following folder:

C:\Users\*your user name*\Documents\My Games\Strategic Command WWII - War In Europe\Campaigns

That's it.


_____________________________


(in reply to canuckgamer)
Post #: 9
RE: War in Europe - Realism - 6/16/2020 3:35:56 AM   
canuckgamer

 

Posts: 585
Joined: 6/23/2004
Status: offline
crispy, I have installed Fall Weiss. I went to the Mods forum to get more info on the changes and that thread is massive dating back to 2016!. A lot of the discussion concerned changes to the AI which I am not interested in as I only play PBEM. Is there a summary somewhere of the changes in this latest version? Secondly is there a graphics mod for Fall Weiss as I saw one user offering to do some NATO graphics. Look forward to checking your mod out as I think there are some big issues with SC WIE. Thanks.

(in reply to crispy131313)
Post #: 10
RE: War in Europe - Realism - 6/16/2020 6:08:34 AM   
crispy131313


Posts: 2041
Joined: 11/30/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: canuckgamer

crispy, I have installed Fall Weiss. I went to the Mods forum to get more info on the changes and that thread is massive dating back to 2016!. A lot of the discussion concerned changes to the AI which I am not interested in as I only play PBEM. Is there a summary somewhere of the changes in this latest version? Secondly is there a graphics mod for Fall Weiss as I saw one user offering to do some NATO graphics. Look forward to checking your mod out as I think there are some big issues with SC WIE. Thanks.



There are literally too many changes to summarize but I will try to give a brief rundown;

New Units - All ground units are broken up into division/corps/Army including Tanks. New units include Infantry Division, Mechanized Division, Tank Division, Tank Corps, Tank Army & Mountain Division. Despite an increased unit density the map remains very fluid and encirclements remain an integral part of the Eastern Front. The movement value of Mechanized and Tank units have been increased.

New Sprites - New sprites are included in the mod download (no further installation required). Both NATO and non-NATO sprites are custom for the campaign because of the new unit structure.

New Research Categories - Included new research categories Tank Production, and Aircraft Production which represent investment in mass production, which will increase the build limits of aircraft and tanks for majors only. I've also overhauled the existing military doctrine categories (Armoured warfare etc.). The doctrines can now be researched up to 5 levels and provide 5% morale boost to applicable units. These new categories provides a great deal of flexibility, and nations start with some historical advantages. The explanatory text of all categories are included on the research page.

Aircraft - Ground Attack Weapons is now researchable up to 5 levels. The aircraft at level 5 are comparable to level 3 in vanilla. Anti-aircraft units were also buffed allowing for defenders to successfully defend key objectives from "Bomber Armies". The range of Strategic Bombers was increased, as well as the demoralization of Medium Bombers.

Diplomacy - The effectiveness of diplomacy chits are reduced but are however very important. The diplomatic game overall is enhanced with many new decisions that will sway nations one way or another and a successful diplomacy hit or two can have a larger impact and be the difference between beginning/severing a trade agreement or even allowing an alliance to form with a neutral. I have included in the decision notes and various new popups how a countries' leaning may affect the game for transparency.

Finland - Finland is now a (minor) Major, and can sign the Tripartite Pact or only fight against the USSR (continuation war). The Winter War still plays out as vanilla due to constraints.

New Decision Events - Aside from diplomacy and trade agreements, a number of decision events are added to aide different strategies such as Sealion, an Allied invasion of Norway, or operation Sledgehammer. Some decision events were also amended, such as the banning of the Communist Party, the Axis invasion of Norway, Italian invasion of Greece etc. I would encourage to re-read all decision/notes during playthrough.

Economic Warfare - The German economy is more fragile, over the course of the game Germany can receive imports from the following neutral countries; USSR, Norway, Sweden, Greece, Yugoslavia, Romania, Hungary, Portugal, Spain, Turkey, Vichy France, Switzerland. These are not insignificant amounts with many of the new ones (Romania, Portugal, Spain, Turkey, Vichy France) ranging between 20-30 MPP and the Allies should try to intervene when possible. Ploesti (50 MPP) and German Mines (40 MPP) are also more desirable targets of strategic bombing. Possibly the most important is that the Axis will begin to experience oil shortages if they fail to drive into the Caucasus at least as far as Grozny by the end of 42' which will cause MPP issues.

The Eastern Front - The Soviets have a great ability to counter attack at the end of 1941 mainly due to Soviet Infantry Weapons being adjusted back to par (level II) with all other nations. As a result their should be a higher focus on Barbarossa for the Axis.

Naval Warfare - Only a handful of nations (USA, UK, France, Canada) benefit from the discounted cost of surface fleet reinforcements. Axis submarines are less likely to dive 4-5 consecutive times.

New Victory Conditions - The Axis must capture either Baghdad or Baku in addition to the regular objectives to win a decisive victory. As well the Axis can win the game by simply surviving through 1945. There is the option to extend the game if both sides agree (via decision), with amended victory conditions.

Lower German Build Limits - Mid-game Germany will likely find themselves over build limits for a number of units, especially Infantry Corps. The Allied player should keep in mind that that the destruction of a German unit could be permanent.

British Empire - With consideration that the edge of the map is not truely the edge of the world, the greater British empire may send additional units into the Theatre should Egypt or Britain fall.

National Morale - Much more dynamic and reactionary, especially on the Eastern Front.

Military of Minors - A number of events will allow the military strength of neutral minors to increase as the war goes on, increasing their defensive capability mid-late game.

I'm going to cap it there, there are many others but I think the above are the most important differences. The game is fully capable of PBEM if you go that route.








_____________________________


(in reply to canuckgamer)
Post #: 11
RE: War in Europe - Realism - 6/16/2020 3:33:07 PM   
canuckgamer

 

Posts: 585
Joined: 6/23/2004
Status: offline
Thank you for your reply. One question in regards to ground attack. Can air units still eliminate ground units? Earlier in this thread, Hairog indicated that ground units cannot be destroyed by ground attack which I think is more realistic. It sounds like the ground unit is still removed from the map but it is cheaper and quicker to rebuild it. Is that correct?

(in reply to crispy131313)
Post #: 12
RE: War in Europe - Realism - 6/16/2020 4:46:03 PM   
crispy131313


Posts: 2041
Joined: 11/30/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: canuckgamer

Thank you for your reply. One question in regards to ground attack. Can air units still eliminate ground units? Earlier in this thread, Hairog indicated that ground units cannot be destroyed by ground attack which I think is more realistic. It sounds like the ground unit is still removed from the map but it is cheaper and quicker to rebuild it. Is that correct?


Air units can still eliminate ground targets, I think what Hairog was referring to was applicable to all games. Ground units that are removed from the map by air strike in good supply are able to quickly be-redeployed by rebuilding at half strength/cost. Unless he has reduced the attack value to 0 I suppose then they are air artillery only.

Despite the changes I've made Air forces still play an integral part in destroying/disrupting units as it allows the map to remain fluid despite the higher unit density in my mod.

It also costs 2x the MPP to operate aircraft, which also very much eliminates the ability for Bombers to be warped all over the map. The Germans I find particularly suffer with this method as the are a number of MPP constraints pre-Barbarossa in the fall/winter of 1940, trying to set up various trade agreements and the increased cost of forming the DAK. By also burning MPP on operating aircraft the Germans will surely find Barbarossa difficult.

To touch on some of your other concerns on air, the UK has the ability to enhance the defensive capability of Malta via decision event early in the war in anticipation of the war spreading to the Mediterranean, which results in experienced (3 star) anti-aircraft unit placed in Malta. It is not impossible to take, but it will take a sustained assault.

German Paratroopers build limits are limited to 1, though with events/decisions the Germans could at one point have as many a 3. These additional paratroopers once destroyed will never be redeployed.


_____________________________


(in reply to canuckgamer)
Post #: 13
RE: War in Europe - Realism - 6/16/2020 7:36:46 PM   
Elessar2


Posts: 645
Joined: 11/30/2016
Status: online
Crispy, on that last part perhaps aircraft production can increase the build limits of paratroops? Hitler may have thought that dedicated paratroops were a total waste (in the wake of the Crete near-fiasco), but I shouldn't be held to his notions, esp. if I am willing to spring for the extra (abstracted) transport aircraft necessary?

[just checked]

It seems those 2 techs DON'T increase the build limits of Tac Bombers or Strat Bombers or even Tank Armies. Given their steep cost I'm not going to lose much sleep if I don't spring for them.

< Message edited by Elessar2 -- 6/16/2020 7:43:00 PM >

(in reply to crispy131313)
Post #: 14
RE: War in Europe - Realism - 6/17/2020 12:17:33 AM   
crispy131313


Posts: 2041
Joined: 11/30/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

Crispy, on that last part perhaps aircraft production can increase the build limits of paratroops? Hitler may have thought that dedicated paratroops were a total waste (in the wake of the Crete near-fiasco), but I shouldn't be held to his notions, esp. if I am willing to spring for the extra (abstracted) transport aircraft necessary?

[just checked]

It seems those 2 techs DON'T increase the build limits of Tac Bombers or Strat Bombers or even Tank Armies. Given their steep cost I'm not going to lose much sleep if I don't spring for them.


I think any further paratroopers in the build limits would detrimental to be honest especially when you consider that the increased build limit could be applied to multiple majors at the same time.

And yes those techs don't increase all units of their type, but I wouldn't discount the usefulness of having access to more Tank Corps, or a larger air-force. Many players max out both of these units before Barbarossa and i'm sure would be hungry for more.







_____________________________


(in reply to Elessar2)
Post #: 15
RE: War in Europe - Realism - 6/17/2020 6:29:43 AM   
Gilber


Posts: 228
Joined: 6/13/2018
From: Luxembourg
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: canuckgamer



Air power alone should not be capable of eliminating a ground unit.




I totally agree with canuckgamer.
I find it's one of the least realistic aspects of the game (which is still a fabulous game by the way).


_____________________________

Gilles

(in reply to canuckgamer)
Post #: 16
RE: War in Europe - Realism - 6/19/2020 11:43:31 PM   
dhucul2011

 

Posts: 551
Joined: 9/12/2007
Status: offline
The air units can “shatter” the ground units. It literally says that when it happens. A shattered unit is so disrupted that it loses any combat ability and must be removed from the line for rest refit and reinforcement. Don’t consider it as a ground unit being “destroyed”.

(in reply to Gilber)
Post #: 17
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Strategic Command Series >> Strategic Command WWII War in Europe >> War in Europe - Realism Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.727