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Master list of AI Failures/exploits

 
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Master list of AI Failures/exploits - 6/5/2020 3:45:46 PM   
rockmedic109

 

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I am in May of 1944 in my current game against the AI. I think I broke it in 1942 attacking landings and sinking too many transports {and a LOT of troops}. My challenge now is not the Japanese but coordinating the logistics to maintain the steamroller. With all of the forces the Allies get, I am not sure all the transports I sunk really matter.

I started wondering if there was a list of easy exploits that human players do that can cause problems later. That way we know what not to do {we just have to curb our instincts}. I've seen a few references here and there, buried in this thread or that one, but not one main list or thread that can be copied, studied, and posted to the computer screen as a reminder {I am as sharp as a cue ball sometimes with a memory of one as well} to keep from exploiting the limitations of the AI. I'm sorry if I missed it if there is one.
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RE: Master list of AI Failures/exploits - 6/5/2020 4:27:37 PM   
Alfred

 

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If the AI is Japan, by far the most important thing for the human player to not do is to permanently prevent the Japanese capture of the bases listed in post #38 of this recent thread.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4816275&mpage=2&key=&#4820894

It isn't just the loss of these bases which is important.  Invariably the Allied human player, in preventing the loss of these bases, will inflict crippling losses in materiel and stops important follow on scripts from firing up.

Alfred

(in reply to rockmedic109)
Post #: 2
RE: Master list of AI Failures/exploits - 6/5/2020 5:04:07 PM   
Shellshock


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109


I started wondering if there was a list of easy exploits that human players do that can cause problems later. That way we know what not to do {we just have to curb our instincts}.


I certainly think one AI exploit that players find real early is the CAP trap. Set up a TF of expendable ships (minesweepers, patrol boats) within range of Japanese naval bombers, but not in range of Japanese fighters. Assuming they detect it, the Japanese bombers charge in to find that the TF has a protective umbrella of fighters over it and get slaughtered wholesale. Easy kills and experience pick-ups for the pilots. Heavy material and experience losses for the Japanese.

(in reply to rockmedic109)
Post #: 3
RE: Master list of AI Failures/exploits - 6/5/2020 5:35:48 PM   
Macclan5


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I am unsure a master list is applicable. However in fairness there are a few exploits which may or may not be reasonable.

There is a difference in (i) the Game mechanics (ii) Game-y - taking advantage of mechanics and (iii) Historical references - all of this is subjective.

This is not an AI issue.

1) CAP Trap noted above.

Low value ships in harbor near Naval Bombers and crushing tiered CAP to decimate them.

Massive CVE task force near Japanese Home Islands during Kamikaze period with Task Force 54 only a hex away providing CAP. Decimate large numbers of Kamikaze.

Are these exploits? Would of the USN used similar tactics even indirectly i.e. Mine sweepers in advance of a home island invasion?

2) "Midway"

Park an Oiler or Tanker and some cargo ships in mid 42 at Midway.

Hide a large CV task force at "Point Luck" nearby. Have decent cap and some bombers on Midway.

Await an IJN CV stike force or series of IJN CV strike force. Usually a 1 or 2 CVL stike force first then a bigger force soon behind it.

Is this an exploit ? In June 42 the USN sank 4 IJN main carriers. Is the player using such a tactic emulating real life to a certain degree ?

3) Alfred's wonderful list of key bases as posted thread 38 mentioned above.

Just giving up to the AI is one option.

Personally where it comes to Port Moresby or Akylab I do not necessary agree with this philosophy as a "problem with the AI"

The bottom line - even for a historically orientated player is 'foreknowledge and hindsight' about the relative strategic value of those bases AND the unusual casualness of willing to sacrifice assets (ships / troops / planes) to defend those strategically important bases.

Again is this an exploit - or a Player Supreme Commander making calculated risk decisions ?


--

The AI is not the issue in the majority of these posts.

The issue is the player has foresight (a plan) - hindsight of history - and all too often is willing to sacrifice electronic troops / ships / planes to accomplish their plan without thought of the Political consequences or lives lost. British withdrawal / Australian politics - Dutch or French collusion which cannot be modeled in the engine. the Player does not care that Units are eliminated in the same way Winston Churchill, FDR, or John Curtain may have had to.

Even longshot battles Singapore - Manila - Palembang - Rangoon. "I can buy them out cheap latter on"

Its a valid game mechanic. It may be game-y but thats subjective. Those troops were really lost in history - could have better decisions saved them ?

Some people call me an apologist for the AI - I am not.

I am someone who does not blame the tool - when a tool use is determined by the user.







< Message edited by Macclan5 -- 6/5/2020 5:36:07 PM >


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Post #: 4
RE: Master list of AI Failures/exploits - 6/5/2020 5:40:49 PM   
Macclan5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109

I am in May of 1944 in my current game against the AI. I think I broke it in 1942 attacking landings and sinking too many transports {and a LOT of troops}. My challenge now is not the Japanese but coordinating the logistics to maintain the steamroller. With all of the forces the Allies get, I am not sure all the transports I sunk really matter.



Invade the home islands.

See the Japanese troops fight behind very high fortifications causing massive losses and disruption to your troops.

Have the patience to play through to take Tokyo.

Having "exploited (perhaps)" all those earlier Naval assets / troops - see if you think the last 6 months is easy

_____________________________

A People that values its privileges above it's principles will soon loose both. Dwight D Eisenhower.

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Post #: 5
RE: Master list of AI Failures/exploits - 6/5/2020 7:32:38 PM   
rockmedic109

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

If the AI is Japan, by far the most important thing for the human player to not do is to permanently prevent the Japanese capture of the bases listed in post #38 of this recent thread.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4816275&mpage=2&key=�

It isn't just the loss of these bases which is important.  Invariably the Allied human player, in preventing the loss of these bases, will inflict crippling losses in materiel and stops important follow on scripts from firing up.

Alfred

I missed this post on one of my AE quiet times {Fallout, Mass Effect, etc}. This insight to the AI helps greatly. Thank you. The only ones I try to hold is Rangoon {and as an extension, Mandalay, Port Blair, Akyab} and Port Moresby. Next game I'll draw the line further back.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 6
RE: Master list of AI Failures/exploits - 6/5/2020 7:37:02 PM   
rockmedic109

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5


quote:

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109

I am in May of 1944 in my current game against the AI. I think I broke it in 1942 attacking landings and sinking too many transports {and a LOT of troops}. My challenge now is not the Japanese but coordinating the logistics to maintain the steamroller. With all of the forces the Allies get, I am not sure all the transports I sunk really matter.



Invade the home islands.

See the Japanese troops fight behind very high fortifications causing massive losses and disruption to your troops.

Have the patience to play through to take Tokyo.

Having "exploited (perhaps)" all those earlier Naval assets / troops - see if you think the last 6 months is easy

Yeah, I figure that will be a tough nut to crack no matter how many ships are sunk. And I intend to do so. I've gotten too far and invested too much time to be bitten by the re-start bug now.

(in reply to Macclan5)
Post #: 7
RE: Master list of AI Failures/exploits - 6/5/2020 8:13:46 PM   
GetAssista

 

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You want exploits? Man do I a have a list of those..

Land war:
1. AI is overaggressive when in the same hex. It will maul his own LCUs against your strong positions. I suspect it disregards terrain multiplier when planning. And it certainly disregards results (disastrous ones) of previous attacks in the same setup. Exploit for finishing tough sieges as either side
2. AI is eager to move to an adjacent hex to try catch some small unit no matter his strategic goals. Want Chungking in spring 42? Bait the AI out of it with some armor cars.
3. AI is prone to get into encirclement when attacking and when caught it just sits there doing nothing, eating supplies and eventually dying. If you allow this for yourself, it is an indispensable tool for any Ironman so that you can keep AI LCUs in neat POW camps and not have them revived and refilled from the bottomless Ironman pools.

Sea war:
1. AI script fixates on a base until one of the sides loses everything. Widely known already. Exploit to bleed AI dry. Let AI have its conquests if you want a good game.
2. Bombardment threat to bases almost completely disregarded by either side. Only PTs are consistently showing up, no guarding SCTFs. Actually bombardment becomes the main killing tool against AI, if you can do timely supply deliveries / AKEs. I had a timerun game once where I used all Jap BBs solely for land destruction and never in surface combat, their damage points and yard time are too precious to spend at sea when they can rain destruction on the shores.
3. Long voyages with inadequate and expensive forces. A couple fast battleships w/o cover to cruise aimlessly around Solomons in early 42 waiting to be torpedoed? - you got it. 1 CV TF deep raids? - you got it.
4. AI plots predictable main routes. That SF-PH beeline is a brutal killzone early war. And AI never changes the route. Gosh, it loads full airgroups on lone slow unescorted transports all the time.
5. AI disregards potential zones of control when routing transports. Only current enemy air coverage and nearby SCTFs matter for AI. So move your torp bombers out of Noumea for couple turns, and when they are back there will be some transports around to shoot at.

Air war:
1. AI does not account for long range or CV port strikes. Does not like to CAP his important ports adequately and concentrate his ships in those ports under sturdy CAP. Becomes harder later of course with zillions airgroups coming.
2. Naval CAP traps already mentioned.
3. General persistence in doing the same thing repeatedly (bombing, sweeping a particular base) no matter the previous losses.
4. Lack of bomber concentration. They are usually all over the place doing unimportant stuff.
5. Bombers do not prioritize correctly early war. I've almost never seen city strikes from Allies. Dutch bombers can be very painful when aimed at all that oil/industry Japan conquers and has few fighter groups to CAP. Instead they die on futile naval strikes. Same with Jap bombers in China - hitting Allied supply generation should be a priority, especially since AI does not need those additional factories that much.

to be continued when I remember something else

< Message edited by GetAssista -- 6/5/2020 9:07:25 PM >

(in reply to rockmedic109)
Post #: 8
RE: Master list of AI Failures/exploits - 6/5/2020 8:31:36 PM   
Torplexed


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista
5. AI disregards potential zones of control when routing transports. Only current enemy air coverage and nearby SCTFs matter for AI. So move your torp bombers out of Noumea for couple turns, and when they are back there will be some transports around to shoot at.



This gem works nicely for surface ships as well. Have a force of cruisers and destroyers hide in some backwater port in an area where the enemy is landing transports or cargo with minimal escort. Dispatch them from the port at night to ambush these sitting ducks and then speed them off somewhere with air cover assuming it's even needed. Warships in port are basically invisible to search.

Nice list by the way.


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Post #: 9
RE: Master list of AI Failures/exploits - 6/5/2020 9:13:03 PM   
rockmedic109

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Torplexed


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista
5. AI disregards potential zones of control when routing transports. Only current enemy air coverage and nearby SCTFs matter for AI. So move your torp bombers out of Noumea for couple turns, and when they are back there will be some transports around to shoot at.



This gem works nicely for surface ships as well. Have a force of cruisers and destroyers hide in some backwater port in an area where the enemy is landing transports or cargo with minimal escort. Dispatch them from the port at night to ambush these sitting ducks and then speed them off somewhere with air cover assuming it's even needed. Warships in port are basically invisible to search.

Nice list by the way.


I will continue to not bounce my squadrons around. Probably fetal if PBEM but I don't realistically have the time or attension span to put into PBEM....and I am intimidated about how quick I am likely to have my backside handed to me.

(in reply to Torplexed)
Post #: 10
RE: Master list of AI Failures/exploits - 6/5/2020 9:31:56 PM   
rockmedic109

 

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Great ones GetAssista.

Some AI limitations to account for and exploits to avoid.

I have never done a CAP Trap unless you count sailing the Allied Carrier Death Star into rage to provoke an attack and relying on CAP and AA to keep the carriers safe. Two raids so far with downing over 200 planes a raid and only having a bomb hit on a CVL. I did not have anything else as bait.

I never did like bombing oil or resources in DEI early in the war. AI assist and bribes from Shell Oil to keep their facilities safe.

I did extensively use cruisers to attack invasion forces. I would sometimes get burned with a strong cruiser escort, but I bagged a lot of xAK/xAPs that were loaded with men. I am not sure if the loss of men did anything or the pools refill them fast.

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RE: Master list of AI Failures/exploits - 6/5/2020 9:59:25 PM   
Shellshock


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109
I would sometimes get burned with a strong cruiser escort, but I bagged a lot of xAK/xAPs that were loaded with men. I am not sure if the loss of men did anything or the pools refill them fast.


It's my understanding that the AndyMac Ironman scenarios try to rectify this problem by providing the Japanese with scores of APs armed to the teeth with cruiser sized guns, torpedo batteries and scout planes. So, if you run into what looked at a distance like an innocent gaggle of APs, you can get a real nasty surprise.

But yeah, the loss of men can hurt the AI. If a whole unit is destroyed at sea it has to reform in Tokyo pulling replacements from the pool that could have been used elsewhere. I'm not sure but there is the possibility it may never leave Japan again since it lost its original ride. I've noticed at the end of AI games that Tokyo is chock full of units I had previously destroyed. And if you sink too many APs too soon, the expansive part of the campaign comes to an end for the AI real quick.

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Post #: 12
RE: Master list of AI Failures/exploits - 6/6/2020 3:08:06 AM   
rockmedic109

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shellshock


quote:

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109
I would sometimes get burned with a strong cruiser escort, but I bagged a lot of xAK/xAPs that were loaded with men. I am not sure if the loss of men did anything or the pools refill them fast.


It's my understanding that the AndyMac Ironman scenarios try to rectify this problem by providing the Japanese with scores of APs armed to the teeth with cruiser sized guns, torpedo batteries and scout planes. So, if you run into what looked at a distance like an innocent gaggle of APs, you can get a real nasty surprise.




That is nasty.

And I expect invading the home islands will be nasty as well, but I've got a while for that yet.

(in reply to Shellshock)
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RE: Master list of AI Failures/exploits - 6/6/2020 4:34:46 AM   
jdsrae


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Vs the AI you could try to play more of a historical role playing game.

Try to stick to the rough timetable of the actual allied amphibious assaults included in this list and see how that goes:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_amphibious_assault_operations


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RE: Master list of AI Failures/exploits - 6/6/2020 8:22:40 AM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

If the AI is Japan, by far the most important thing for the human player to not do is to permanently prevent the Japanese capture of the bases listed in post #38 of this recent thread.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4816275&mpage=2&key=?

It isn't just the loss of these bases which is important.  Invariably the Allied human player, in preventing the loss of these bases, will inflict crippling losses in materiel and stops important follow on scripts from firing up.

Alfred

I missed this post on one of my AE quiet times {Fallout, Mass Effect, etc}. This insight to the AI helps greatly. Thank you. The only ones I try to hold is Rangoon {and as an extension, Mandalay, Port Blair, Akyab} and Port Moresby. Next game I'll draw the line further back.


The list of bases is provided by Andy Mac. As he is less often in the forum than I am, I have no hesitation in publishing it as often as appropriate. None of the devs has a better understanding of AE script limitations than does Andy Mac.

Alfred

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RE: Master list of AI Failures/exploits - 6/6/2020 10:09:17 PM   
PaxMondo


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I think Andy Mac was the only dev that developed that form of arcane magic use: otherwise known as script writing.





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RE: Master list of AI Failures/exploits - 6/7/2020 2:58:37 AM   
pontiouspilot


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I have played a human player weaker than AI....no small wonder he disappeared into the fog of time with no goodbye. In Feb. 42 CA Northampton and 6-8 4 stackers sank about 20 high value Japanese transports left docked inexplicably in Tulagi, of all places. It got worse from there...

When I was desperate enough to play AI the best "failure/exploit" had to be when the Japanese captured my BB Alabama and I ended up having to sink it. Long story, but suffice it to say that a mind blowing sync problem occurred. I disbanded Alabama at some s...thole island in Solomons and the next thing I knew she was in a IJN task force. I sank her and she miraculously reappeared from the dead in San Fran harbour, back on the right team.

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RE: Master list of AI Failures/exploits - 6/7/2020 3:32:45 AM   
Torplexed


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot



When I was desperate enough to play AI the best "failure/exploit" had to be when the Japanese captured my BB Alabama and I ended up having to sink it. Long story, but suffice it to say that a mind blowing sync problem occurred. I disbanded Alabama at some s...thole island in Solomons and the next thing I knew she was in a IJN task force. I sank her and she miraculously reappeared from the dead in San Fran harbour, back on the right team.



Whoa! Sounds like something out of The Philadelphia Experiment.




Attachment (1)

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RE: Master list of AI Failures/exploits - 6/7/2020 3:33:31 AM   
rockmedic109

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

I have played a human player weaker than AI....no small wonder he disappeared into the fog of time with no goodbye. In Feb. 42 CA Northampton and 6-8 4 stackers sank about 20 high value Japanese transports left docked inexplicably in Tulagi, of all places. It got worse from there...

When I was desperate enough to play AI the best "failure/exploit" had to be when the Japanese captured my BB Alabama and I ended up having to sink it. Long story, but suffice it to say that a mind blowing sync problem occurred. I disbanded Alabama at some s...thole island in Solomons and the next thing I knew she was in a IJN task force. I sank her and she miraculously reappeared from the dead in San Fran harbour, back on the right team.

Think of the movie possibilities of this. Alternate universe Alabama goes back in time? Secret operation to raise the Alabama and return her to SF?

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Post #: 19
RE: Master list of AI Failures/exploits - 6/7/2020 3:14:34 PM   
fcooke

 

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There was a cartoon series I used to like watching as a youngster. Cannot recall the name now but they raised the Yamato and turned her into a spaceship with awesome weapons systems.

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Post #: 20
RE: Master list of AI Failures/exploits - 6/7/2020 3:50:51 PM   
Torplexed


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

There was a cartoon series I used to like watching as a youngster. Cannot recall the name now but they raised the Yamato and turned her into a spaceship with awesome weapons systems.


Starblazers, or Space Battleship Yamato as it was known in Japan. It's also been made into a live action movie since.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Blazers

< Message edited by Torplexed -- 6/7/2020 3:51:09 PM >


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RE: Master list of AI Failures/exploits - 6/7/2020 4:29:44 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Torplexed

quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

There was a cartoon series I used to like watching as a youngster. Cannot recall the name now but they raised the Yamato and turned her into a spaceship with awesome weapons systems.


Starblazers, or Space Battleship Yamato as it was known in Japan. It's also been made into a live action movie since.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Blazers

Always something very ... imaginative ... in Japanese productions! Too bad they censored out the parts that showed the crew of the original Yamato as heroic. The concept of "Yamato spirit" as the essence of the ship and the Japanese people is key to understanding the connection to the spaceship.

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Post #: 22
RE: Master list of AI Failures/exploits - 6/7/2020 4:45:07 PM   
fcooke

 

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Going way off topic here but used to also like watching 'Creature Double Feature'. Another Japanese series with the huge monsters creating chaos or fighting themselves. Maybe the Japanese angle and fighting has it marginally on topic.

Thanks Torp for identifying what I was writing about.

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Post #: 23
RE: Master list of AI Failures/exploits - 6/7/2020 4:59:06 PM   
Torplexed


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

Thanks Torp for identifying what I was writing about.


Hey, I recall it well. It sure beat Speed Racer at the time.

In the Americanized version we all saw the Yamato was renamed Argo. U.S. producers replaced a Japanese historical reference with a Western one. But there was no hiding that distinctive Yamato silhouette.

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