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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!)

 
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RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 7/23/2020 6:36:19 PM   
willgamer


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From: Huntsville, Alabama
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quote:


I've become confused about what the goal of the redesign of the log system is.


At least I mostly understood, and could literally see, what a stop sign did with the old LIS.

I have no idea when or why to use the new buttons in the traffic tab, much less how to judge the effects. Even the 100% stop signs no longer stop in every instance!?



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Post #: 451
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 7/24/2020 1:05:24 AM   
Malevolence


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willgamer

quote:


I've become confused about what the goal of the redesign of the log system is.


At least I mostly understood, and could literally see, what a stop sign did with the old LIS.

I have no idea when or why to use the new buttons in the traffic tab, much less how to judge the effects. Even the 100% stop signs no longer stop in every instance!?




The logistic System is a gigantic mess

The most influential post on this forum. 3x more replies than its closet competitor. 2x more views.

If you want to understand how we got here and what's going on with logistics, feel free to read the 342 posts.

There is your smoking gun.

As a community, we begged for this change. Give the developer at least a few months to work out the kinks before demanding yet another change.

... and it's noticed that some of the most adamant proponents for the change in that thread were not around here in july to post tests and bugs.

< Message edited by Malevolence -- 7/24/2020 1:37:11 AM >


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Post #: 452
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 7/24/2020 8:36:08 AM   
Tomn

 

Posts: 137
Joined: 4/22/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13
I've become confused about what the goal of the redesign of the log system is.


I can't speak for Vic, but here's how I'm seeing it:

Prior to the pull system being implemented, the difference between beginner players and advanced players was massive. As in, if you didn't fully understand how the logistics system worked, how to manipulate it, how to diagnose it and how to fix its problems, it was very easy to end up in a situation where your troops are starving despite having enough theoretical logistical capacity to tend to all their needs. Conversely, if you WERE an advanced player, you could make enormous cumulative gains in efficiency at the cost of a great deal of tedium. Not really an ideal situation for everyone - it's nice for differences in skill and knowledge to make a difference in results, but not so much of a difference that those without skill have trouble functioning on a basic level, while exploiting that difference to its fullest potential required a lot of tedious clickwork. Let's not think the former issue is a minor one, either - by far the most common topic in the forums is some variation of "What the heck is wrong with my logistics?"

In theory, once the kinks are ironed out, the pull system will allow beginner players to be able to function at a basic level as long as they have enough logistical capacity in the system, while still allowing advanced players some room for extra tricks up their sleeve if they get into the guts of the system, bringing the game closer to the "easy to learn, hard to master" ideal. If you're playing at the "high-level" view you are and noticing that the game is easier to play and understand without being much different, that's great! That shows that the pull system is doing its part for those who aren't looking under the hood much, which most likely will be the majority. The issue now is making sure that things are cleaned up enough under the hood so that advanced players can get their enjoyment out of tinkering without undue tedium as well, and that whatever problems are going on aren't causing bugs that break logistics for those who don't look under the hood - it's one thing for your troops to starve because you didn't place a series of roadblocks channeling logistics where they should go, it's another thing for your troops to starve because of a bug when by all rights they really shouldn't be starving.

It's worth remembering, by the way, that the original logistical system didn't descend from the heavens carved upon tablets of stone. It was worked on and developed for months, and what we saw at launch was the result of a great deal of designing, coding, playtesting, and debugging. Conversely, we're seeing the pull system in the raw, bloody stages of infancy and growth. This is how the sausage gets made, and some degree of messiness is to be expected. This is after all a beta, and as Vic noted above anyone participating is essentially being a guinea pig for his design experiments towards a better end result, and if people are pointing out problems it's to help refine things towards a good full patch release.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GodwinW
And this phrase is scary to me. I hardly ever belong to the majority. Let me have this one game that caters to my preferences please. I don't want to see something epic blemished by changes for some majority that doesn't care about my wishes.


I have to admit, "I am a vocal minority and I know it, please design the game specifically for me because there are so few games that do" is not an argument I've seen before. Usually people try to claim they represent the silent majority instead. I can respect the honesty at least.

(in reply to jwarrenw13)
Post #: 453
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 7/24/2020 9:24:30 AM   
Vic


Posts: 6957
Joined: 5/17/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willgamer

quote:


I've become confused about what the goal of the redesign of the log system is.


At least I mostly understood, and could literally see, what a stop sign did with the old LIS.

I have no idea when or why to use the new buttons in the traffic tab, much less how to judge the effects. Even the 100% stop signs no longer stop in every instance!?




feel free to send a savegame to vic@vrdesigns.net and giving me the coordinates of the stop sign that is no longer stopping everything.

would be helpful.

best wishes,
Vic

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Post #: 454
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 7/24/2020 9:26:44 AM   
Vic


Posts: 6957
Joined: 5/17/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gywox

I've found a problem with Mass Upgrade.

I tried to upgrade and replace my "soldiers", "soldiers II" and "soldiers III".
It did not work because I did not have any Log.Pts. In the end I managed to fix it and mass upgrade everyone.

The next turn, my two robot armies disappeared. See screenshots.

They been created on the same turn. I'm playing beta 9.

The 38100 infantry were not robots.

If you want my save you have to tell me how to make it available to you. I have no accounts for such.



Can post link to images. Why?
"You are not allowed to post links, emails or phone numbers for 7 days from the date of your tenth post"



Thanks for reporting Gywox. Could you send your save game just before they dissapeared to vic@vrdesigns.net ?
I'll take a look.

best,
vic

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Post #: 455
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 7/24/2020 5:25:01 PM   
jwarrenw13

 

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From: Monroe, LA, USA
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Tomn, I appreciate the explanation, and it makes a lot of sense. I'm probably in the middle between those who want to delve deeply and those who want it to run without too much effort. I did not find the original log system tedious. I enjoyed doing some micromanaging, even though I did it without checking the numbers too much, but as I said, using the overlays. I found that to be a beautiful and unique part of the game. So I don't want it made so simple that it is effortless.

I also wonder if at the end there will be the option to use the old system or the new system. That was discussed by Vic at one point. I know there are toggles in the roadblock screen now. Wondering if those toggles will be there when this is finished?

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Post #: 456
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.02-beta1 (last update 9 june!) - 7/25/2020 3:22:32 PM   
GodwinW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn
I have to admit, "I am a vocal minority and I know it, please design the game specifically for me because there are so few games that do" is not an argument I've seen before. Usually people try to claim they represent the silent majority instead. I can respect the honesty at least.


That's not what I said. If you quote me (you're using quotation marks) then quote me. Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V is much faster than typing a full sentence out yourself .

And yet, I understand your point.

And even then, have you checked the forum we're on? This entire publisher deals in 'niche'. It's not weird to focus on a subset. You can be the best in a niche and make a good living that way.

It's also very very very difficult to predict beforehand whether something is liked by people who never got the chance to experience it. This game is so different, and it is in a niche for sure but that it may get way more attention from random people and of those people who knows how many like it.

Basically: this game may create a new market.

And yes, purely from my personal perspective: I hope the original system remains, as I've said many times. And I'm not the only one at all. But I do feel like I'm in a minority here on these forums.
Not a small minority though, maybe 40% to 60%. idk I haven't counted.

(in reply to Tomn)
Post #: 457
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta10 (last update 23rd july!) - 7/25/2020 10:14:18 PM   
jsbarker702

 

Posts: 18
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Getting an error message that the following png files are missing: 33, 105, 106.

I installed the mod with the Ctrl A method, not sure what I am doing wrong although the game will still play.



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Post #: 458
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta10 (last update 23rd july!) - 7/26/2020 1:42:09 AM   
Destragon

 

Posts: 231
Joined: 6/8/2020
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You need to install version 1.04 before installing this beta. The card images you're missing are the ones that were in the last updates.
You might actually be able to run the game normally if you just put some blank images with those file names in your graphics\shadow\card folder.

(in reply to jsbarker702)
Post #: 459
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta10 (last update 23rd july!) - 7/26/2020 8:11:14 PM   
Vhalor


Posts: 80
Joined: 6/11/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

Posted beta10. Replaced the logistics change I made in beta9 by a mechanism that is more interesting (and also much less big a change for people who liked the system before that beta9 change)


Haven't played with it too much yet, but already feels a lot better! Time to change the signature once again...

< Message edited by Vhalor -- 7/26/2020 8:31:53 PM >


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Post #: 460
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta10 (last update 23rd july!) - 7/26/2020 9:36:43 PM   
DTurtle

 

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I just noticed in a beta 9 game that the demetalization plant now also produced radioactives. When was that change added in? I didn't find it in any patch notes.

I really like that change.

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Post #: 461
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta10 (last update 23rd july!) - 7/27/2020 10:03:30 AM   
Vic


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Joined: 5/17/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DTurtle

I just noticed in a beta 9 game that the demetalization plant now also produced radioactives. When was that change added in? I didn't find it in any patch notes.

I really like that change.


Yeah i needed to provide a last-ditch way to get some in case a Planet would be without any Radioactives Resource Hexes :)

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Post #: 462
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta10 (last update 23rd july!) - 7/27/2020 12:26:27 PM   
Vic


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Posted beta11.

This one will probably be the one that will be upgraded to v1.05 main release.

Thanks for all the bug and glitch reports. Everytime a new version is posted the game has become more solid. Could not have gotten where we are now alone.

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Post #: 463
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta10 (last update 23rd july!) - 7/27/2020 1:41:02 PM   
ramnblam

 

Posts: 197
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From: Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

Posted beta11.

This one will probably be the one that will be upgraded to v1.05 main release.

Thanks for all the bug and glitch reports. Everytime a new version is posted the game has become more solid. Could not have gotten where we are now alone.


Can you pretty please streamline these cult unit cards next patch please Vic? :D




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 464
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta10 (last update 23rd july!) - 7/27/2020 4:22:44 PM   
Dan1911

 

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Joined: 6/4/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ramnblam


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

Posted beta11.

This one will probably be the one that will be upgraded to v1.05 main release.

Thanks for all the bug and glitch reports. Everytime a new version is posted the game has become more solid. Could not have gotten where we are now alone.


Can you pretty please streamline these cult unit cards next patch please Vic? :D



A way to mass use units cards would be nice

(in reply to ramnblam)
Post #: 465
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta10 (last update 23rd july!) - 7/27/2020 4:31:03 PM   
ramnblam

 

Posts: 197
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan1911


quote:

ORIGINAL: ramnblam


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

Posted beta11.

This one will probably be the one that will be upgraded to v1.05 main release.

Thanks for all the bug and glitch reports. Everytime a new version is posted the game has become more solid. Could not have gotten where we are now alone.


Can you pretty please streamline these cult unit cards next patch please Vic? :D



A way to mass use units cards would be nice


THERE'S DOZENS OF US!

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Post #: 466
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta10 (last update 23rd july!) - 7/27/2020 7:31:56 PM   
jwarrenw13

 

Posts: 1569
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From: Monroe, LA, USA
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I agree on the cult cards. It becomes a minor annoyance to use them. Just cutting down their frequency would be nice.

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Post #: 467
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta10 (last update 23rd july!) - 7/27/2020 8:01:59 PM   
ramnblam

 

Posts: 197
Joined: 6/9/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13

I agree on the cult cards. It becomes a minor annoyance to use them. Just cutting down their frequency would be nice.


The screeny I posted is from an epic speed game which was around turn 130. I have probably 8 brigades a corp and 30 independent units still not gonna come close to using all those unit cards. I gave up assigning them after the early game.

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Post #: 468
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta10 (last update 23rd july!) - 7/28/2020 4:23:38 AM   
Malevolence


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Less cards (a limit?) with better survivability for all unit feats.

Perhaps also, if not used during the spawn turn, it disappears the next turn. That also works to streamline the issue.

My concern is that some magical mystery system will make things more complex, confuse players, and not satisfy anyone. We can expect the, "I want to issue my own unit feats" crowd to arrive the day after auto-magic is adopted.

I think we have all experienced now that "let us have it both ways" isn't practical and increases game support issues.

< Message edited by Malevolence -- 7/28/2020 4:26:13 AM >


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Post #: 469
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta10 (last update 23rd july!) - 7/28/2020 10:34:15 AM   
Vic


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Its on the to-do list. I have been toying around with the idea of a "recycle button" functionality for Stratagems. That allows you to get Stratagem Recycle Points (needs better name) that allows you to buy a new random Stratagem. Using of course a horrible exchange rate but allowing you to get something out of Stratagems you do not need.

However it might be a few weeks as August is much a holiday month for me and there will be some weeks where i'll not be in office. So expect a big hiatus in patches during August. Things will pick-up again in September.

Best wishes,
Vic



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Post #: 470
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta10 (last update 23rd july!) - 7/28/2020 11:09:59 AM   
Berks

 

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Hi Vic,

Thank you for your continued work on this amazing game.

May I humbly suggest calling the 'Stratagem Recycle Points' Reallocation Points.

Enjoy your holiday, you have definitely earned it

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Post #: 471
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta10 (last update 23rd july!) - 7/28/2020 6:00:48 PM   
Destragon

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

Its on the to-do list. I have been toying around with the idea of a "recycle button" functionality for Stratagems. That allows you to get Stratagem Recycle Points (needs better name) that allows you to buy a new random Stratagem. Using of course a horrible exchange rate but allowing you to get something out of Stratagems you do not need.

While having some recycling feature for stratagems that you have no use for is nice, it doesn't really solve his problem of having to click on 200 cards.
It might be best if the cult priests were automatically assigned to units, just like the regime special unit feats, instead of being stratagems. There's just too many of them. It gets so click heavy that people just end up ignoring the feature.

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 472
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta10 (last update 23rd july!) - 7/28/2020 7:43:51 PM   
Francoy


Posts: 114
Joined: 3/10/2005
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Destragon


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

Its on the to-do list. I have been toying around with the idea of a "recycle button" functionality for Stratagems. That allows you to get Stratagem Recycle Points (needs better name) that allows you to buy a new random Stratagem. Using of course a horrible exchange rate but allowing you to get something out of Stratagems you do not need.

While having some recycling feature for stratagems that you have no use for is nice, it doesn't really solve his problem of having to click on 200 cards.
It might be best if the cult priests were automatically assigned to units, just like the regime special unit feats, instead of being stratagems. There's just too many of them. It gets so click heavy that people just end up ignoring the feature.


Maybe you could target an SHQ or Formation type, and it would automatically assign one to each unit under it. (That don't already have that stratagem).

(in reply to Destragon)
Post #: 473
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta10 (last update 23rd july!) - 7/29/2020 8:13:36 AM   
eddyvegas

 

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The construction report doesn't go far enough. The player should be told, at the beginning of his turn (in a vid, I imagine), that a building has completed construction. I don't understand why you insist on denying the player that bit of dopamine that tells him that he is progressing.

Oh well, I give up.

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Post #: 474
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta10 (last update 23rd july!) - 7/29/2020 8:47:04 AM   
Vic


Posts: 6957
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: eddyvegas

The construction report doesn't go far enough. The player should be told, at the beginning of his turn (in a vid, I imagine), that a building has completed construction. I don't understand why you insist on denying the player that bit of dopamine that tells him that he is progressing.

Oh well, I give up.


Dont give up.

Its on the list.

Its just lack of time and prioritization of other items why it aint there yet.

Best wishes,
Vic

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Post #: 475
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta10 (last update 23rd july!) - 7/30/2020 2:59:53 AM   
ramnblam

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eddyvegas

The construction report doesn't go far enough. The player should be told, at the beginning of his turn (in a vid, I imagine), that a building has completed construction. I don't understand why you insist on denying the player that bit of dopamine that tells him that he is progressing.

Oh well, I give up.



Have a snickers bar bro.

(in reply to eddyvegas)
Post #: 476
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta10 (last update 23rd july!) - 7/30/2020 7:27:57 AM   
eddyvegas

 

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Oh yay!! Thank you Vic!

Snickers has dopamine in it? Gotta go to the candy store, later!!

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Post #: 477
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta10 (last update 23rd july!) - 7/30/2020 2:29:34 PM   
demiare

 

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Finally finished game on 1.09 logistics with a mass of tanks going around and ... honestly it isn't bothered me at slightest. Yes, I need to wait until truck station will be repaired (and upgraded) after conquering city and not rushing forward like a madman. Yes, I need to build a lot of rail stations all around in mid-end game. Yes, it's unreasonable to keep more then 2-3 cities on line with SHQ in endgame, so you WILL need to create more SHQ (yean not like in meta as anyone tried to avoid it). Yes, building mech units with maxed guns&armors wasn't a sane move.

But it was so easy to understand how it's working - as you instantly saw any bottlenecks in graph and all you need is to build more right here. Now huge output of capital will again hide really problem nodes =/

Funny that this situation was exactly like happened with Stellaris. Any massive change to gameplay - and tons of angry players are shouting on forum. Never stop to amuse me - it isn't competitive multiplayer game, they aren't making money on playing it, so why not enjoy chance to re-explore game like entirely new one?

(in reply to eddyvegas)
Post #: 478
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta10 (last update 23rd july!) - 8/3/2020 3:40:17 PM   
perde

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13
I've become confused about what the goal of the redesign of the log system is.


I can't speak for Vic, but here's how I'm seeing it:

Prior to the pull system being implemented, the difference between beginner players and advanced players was massive. As in, if you didn't fully understand how the logistics system worked, how to manipulate it, how to diagnose it and how to fix its problems, it was very easy to end up in a situation where your troops are starving despite having enough theoretical logistical capacity to tend to all their needs. Conversely, if you WERE an advanced player, you could make enormous cumulative gains in efficiency at the cost of a great deal of tedium. Not really an ideal situation for everyone - it's nice for differences in skill and knowledge to make a difference in results, but not so much of a difference that those without skill have trouble functioning on a basic level, while exploiting that difference to its fullest potential required a lot of tedious clickwork. Let's not think the former issue is a minor one, either - by far the most common topic in the forums is some variation of "What the heck is wrong with my logistics?"


I'm one of those people who begged for a change, and I can tell you why. It's because I wholeheartedly disagree with the second sentence of the post referenced above:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malevolence
The logistic System is a gigantic mess

As a community, we begged for this change. Give the developer at least a few months to work out the kinks before demanding yet another change.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dampfnudel
The "concept" of sending logistic points spreading equally in every direction is terrific.


You already mentioned the tedious fiddling required to optimize the logistics. That's all well and true, but that wasn't even my main issue. My problem was that the system was an awkwardly contrived and inherently unrealistic representation of managing logistics.

Not only was the actual gameplay (checking traffic signs every turn or knowingly overbuilding to "brute force" through micromanagement in a game centered around resource management) not fun, but it was made even less fun by the questionable connection to the real-life issue it was supposed to represent. It did not feel at all like managing a fleet of trucks. It felt like opening and closing gates to control the flow of water in a puzzle game.

Imagine a factory and a trucking company/army/entity in charge of logistics interacting in real life. It would probably go a little like this:
Factory: "We need 417 shipments to match our production this month"
Logistics company: "Understood, we will send 417 of our 1000 trucks there"
Great. Everything works out as long as there's available capacity.

Could you imagine the conversation going like this?
Factory: "We need 417 shipments to match our production this month"
Logistics: "Ok, we will send all 1000 trucks out. Then we'll divide 50% of them at the intersection to your factory. This will result in 83 extra trucks, but we like round numbers. Also we must remember to specify to our drivers not to take the dead-end dirt road to the North where they have zero business going, because otherwise half of them will get lost and do nothing all month."

Probably not, right? The old system did not feel like managing a group of truck drivers. A group of people can be told "they need X amount every month, so send X amount every month". A trucking company works on the basis of orders made by the customers in need of shipping, not by sending out trucks randomly in every direction and hoping as many as possible turn up somewhere useful. If a trucking company receives new fleet capacity or a new road is built they don't need to guesstimate new percentages for every road in the country to figure out how many trucks to send to a route they've been doing for 10 years. That's how liquids or electric currents work, not organizations made up of people.

And that was my main gripe with it. It was creating micromanagement out of thin air where no micromanagement should exist. Managing logistics can be an interesting part of the game and I'm glad it's being attempted, but I did not think the concept of "logistics spreading evenly" was terrific. For me it was bad enough to be a deal breaker that made me want to stop playing.

I'm not commenting on the latest beta builds, because they're clearly work in progress. My purpose in writing this was simply to explain why I felt a rework was in dire need. The old system was faulty to its core and a new one was needed, even if that results in an awkward beta phase. This game has potential to be an absolute classic played years from now, so I really don't care if some of the daily builds aren't as polished as the previous system that I hated even when it was "working as intended".


(in reply to demiare)
Post #: 479
RE: Open Beta Patch v1.04-beta10 (last update 23rd july!) - 8/3/2020 5:00:46 PM   
Leslac

 

Posts: 36
Joined: 5/4/2020
Status: offline
Beautifully put perde. And I can add that the beta is really making life a great deal easier, ensuring that stuff gets where it's needed more automatically.

You still can't avoid the splitting roads issue, but I only find it necessary to check up on my logistics system once every couple of turns. Also railroads are mandatory between your main cities now.

(in reply to perde)
Post #: 480
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